The new news 24 thread

[EyesWeldedShut]

1 minute ago, artdjones said:

Wonder if there are any 1.5 diesels left?

1 or 2 or 10  (depends what the actual model was - I've no idea other than a 'D' in the name?) Not bad for a car that my Dad lusted after but ended up with a Talbot Horizon.
https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?q=305+peugeot

[dozeydustman]

Once I know when stepdaughter's boyfriend is available for the journey, I'll be taking him on a collection caper for a car on here he like. He passed his test in June and insurance looks favourable.

[RayMK]

Still no joy with my Tipo which FTP'd back in July.  It is still at the garage.  A new coil had no effect on the lack of sparks and earlier this week a decent, correct 2nd hand ecu was sourced at an Italian cars specialist. We fitted it but symptoms remained unchanged - no sparks.  I'll try to get over to the garage with my multimeter next week to carry out pin checks on the ecu connector in accordance with a Digiplex manual that a chap on the Fiat forum forwarded, plus a few basic continuity checks on other leads e.g. the ignition king lead.  If these checks don't show anything untoward, I won't have anything else affordable to try to replace.  The Fiat's days could be numbered.  If it comes to that, I'll see if anyone wants it as a spares car for scrap money and if that fails to attract anyone it will go to a scrappy for £150 (assuming we can tow it there) or whatever the going rate is.

[artdjones]

1 hour ago, EyesWeldedShut said:

1 or 2 or 10  (depends what the actual model was - I've no idea other than a 'D' in the name?) Not bad for a car that my Dad lusted after but ended up with a Talbot Horizon.
https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?q=305+peugeot

I think the Horizon was the first car with the XUD in.

[SiC]

13 hours ago, RayMK said:

Still no joy with my Tipo which FTP'd back in July.  It is still at the garage.  A new coil had no effect on the lack of sparks and earlier this week a decent, correct 2nd hand ecu was sourced at an Italian cars specialist. We fitted it but symptoms remained unchanged - no sparks.  I'll try to get over to the garage with my multimeter next week to carry out pin checks on the ecu connector in accordance with a Digiplex manual that a chap on the Fiat forum forwarded, plus a few basic continuity checks on other leads e.g. the ignition king lead.  If these checks don't show anything untoward, I won't have anything else affordable to try to replace.  The Fiat's days could be numbered.  If it comes to that, I'll see if anyone wants it as a spares car for scrap money and if that fails to attract anyone it will go to a scrappy for £150 (assuming we can tow it there) or whatever the going rate is.

Just had a Google and the only thread I could find was yours from the other week...

I think the problem is that the Tipo was never terribly popular here and was becoming extinct in the early 00s when the internet and forums became a thing. At which point they were getting to 10+ years old and more or less worthless. So scrapped instead of asking for help. Hence doesn't seem much info on the internet at all on them. Especially on obscure early generation Italian Marelli ignition systems.

The PDF that was sent to you looks useful, however I do note that the coil wiring is different in that document to what yours is. I.e. the PDF shows a standard three wire (pos/neg/HT) coil where as yours has four wires plus HT. So possibly the wiring is different. Also interesting that manual tells you to remove the complete engine head to get accurate timing for it to run properly - how ridiculous.

Given the sudden nature for it to fail and not restart after a shutdown, it does suggest that there is an internal electronic failure somewhere - whether module or sensor.  When you said you got a second hand ECU, was this a Digiplex module or fuel injection module?

From what I can tell from the info about, your car has the Digiplex for ignition and then a Bosch MonoJetronic for injection. Presumably the Digiplex feeds a RPM signal to the MonoJetronic so that can do it's calculations. So wondering if the Digiplex module may have failed internally but the replacement ECU was a MonoJetronic that hadn't failed?

Is the engine a FIRE unit? I.e. can you get hold of a points dizzy that will mount on it?

[egg]

13 hours ago, RayMK said:

 The Fiat's days could be numbered.  If it comes to that, I'll see if anyone wants it as a spares car for scrap money and if that fails to attract anyone it will go to a scrappy for £150 (assuming we can tow it there) or whatever the going rate is.

Is there a decent auto electrician who could have a look?

[RayMK]

1 hour ago, SiC said:

Just had a Google and the only thread I could find was yours from the other week...

I think the problem is that the Tipo was never terribly popular here and was becoming extinct in the early 00s when the internet and forums became a thing. At which point they were getting to 10+ years old and more or less worthless. So scrapped instead of asking for help. Hence doesn't seem much info on the internet at all on them. Especially on obscure early generation Italian Marelli ignition systems.

The PDF that was sent to you looks useful, however I do note that the coil wiring is different in that document to what yours is. I.e. the PDF shows a standard three wire (pos/neg/HT) coil where as yours has four wires plus HT. So possibly the wiring is different. Also interesting that manual tells you to remove the complete engine head to get accurate timing for it to run properly - how ridiculous.

Given the sudden nature for it to fail and not restart after a shutdown, it does suggest that there is an internal electronic failure somewhere - whether module or sensor.  When you said you got a second hand ECU, was this a Digiplex module or fuel injection module?

From what I can tell from the info about, your car has the Digiplex for ignition and then a Bosch MonoJetronic for injection. Presumably the Digiplex feeds a RPM signal to the MonoJetronic so that can do it's calculations. So wondering if the Digiplex module may have failed internally but the replacement ECU was a MonoJetronic that hadn't failed?

Is the engine a FIRE unit? I.e. can you get hold of a points dizzy that will mount on it?

Good points (pun not intended).  It was the Digiplex 2 model 439M which we replaced - like for like.  Yes, the other ecu controls the single point fuel injection but that has not been touched or investigated as the symptoms of the stoppage did not put any suspicions there.  Earlier versions of the 1.4 engine in the Tipo had a carburettor with the  distributor mounted on the side of the crank case,  on the front of the engine.  My engine has a blanking plate or it may even cast as a blank (not machined to accept a distributor) as the distributor is at one end of the camshaft rotating on the same axis.  Without doing a lot of research, I do not know whether there are internal differences to delete the earlier distributor drive set-up or whether the monojetronic inlet manifold differs from the carb inlet manifold.  I have not seen any references to my 1372cc unit being a FIRE series type.  The 1.4ie engine is shared by the Tempra and some Uno models, the Tempra 1.4 being virtually the same as my Tipo under the bonnet for obvious reasons (Tipo with a boot = Tempra). There are other closely related engines in other Italian marques but these generally have numerous detail differences in ignition and injection systems and use different ECUs.  I'll carry out my multimeter checks to confirm or otherwise the correct resistances for the sensors.  The one you mentioned which requires the head off to access or set-up would immediately sentence the car to being moved to a new owner or scrapped. I am unable and unwilling to take on that task or pay someone to do it.  Fortunately, that particular sensor is not a common failure and tends only to shake out of adjustment, ruining performance but not stopping the engine from running.  My engine has always performed absolutely fine. 

[RayMK]

30 minutes ago, egg said:

Is there a decent auto electrician who could have a look?

 We've spoken to a couple on the 'phone.  They were not keen to take it further because, although there is a rudimentary diagnostic connector on the loom under the bonnet, no-one (including long established Fiat dealers) has the original Fiat diagnostic device or anything compatible with it.  It would be a project to get anything to read it.  There are a couple of UK companies who could repair or clone the Digiplex ECU if that was found to be the problem.  Prices start at £200 .... much more if it proves a difficult one.  The car is worth £600.  I'm not an eBay optimist who would try for £2K.  My preferred budget is <£400 to fix the Tipo.  I'll update with my findings after waving my multimeter leads about next week 😁. 

[SiC]

36 minutes ago, RayMK said:

Good points (pun not intended).  It was the Digiplex 2 model 439M which we replaced - like for like.  Yes, the other ecu controls the single point fuel injection but that has not been touched or investigated as the symptoms of the stoppage did not put any suspicions there.  Earlier versions of the 1.4 engine in the Tipo had a carburettor with the  distributor mounted on the side of the crank case,  on the front of the engine.  My engine has a blanking plate or it may even cast as a blank (not machined to accept a distributor) as the distributor is at one end of the camshaft rotating on the same axis.  Without doing a lot of research, I do not know whether there are internal differences to delete the earlier distributor drive set-up or whether the monojetronic inlet manifold differs from the carb inlet manifold.  I have not seen any references to my 1372cc unit being a FIRE series type.  The 1.4ie engine is shared by the Tempra and some Uno models, the Tempra 1.4 being virtually the same as my Tipo under the bonnet for obvious reasons (Tipo with a boot = Tempra). There are other closely related engines in other Italian marques but these generally have numerous detail differences in ignition and injection systems and use different ECUs.  I'll carry out my multimeter checks to confirm or otherwise the correct resistances for the sensors.  The one you mentioned which requires the head off to access or set-up would immediately sentence the car to being moved to a new owner or scrapped. I am unable and unwilling to take on that task or pay someone to do it.  Fortunately, that particular sensor is not a common failure and tends only to shake out of adjustment, ruining performance but not stopping the engine from running.  My engine has always performed absolutely fine. 

I've had a quick Google around. I think that PDF referred to the original Digiplex. The Digiplex 2 only has one sensor from what I can see (crank presumably).

Found this info on a Russian site (Google translated):

https://www-drive2-ru.translate.goog/l/3078242/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Obviously can't guarantee it'll be correct but the title and description seem to check out okay.

Things of interest:

There is a feed from the starter relay to the control module. Possibly this signals to start the module up? I.e. if someone leaves the ignition on, it stays off to save burning it out? I'd check this wire hasn't broken. This would be the first thing I'd check as could definitely give the symptoms of a sudden non start.

Tacho is connected to the coil. Possible the tacho has failed, shorting this and causing it to not send a spark? I'd probably disconnect this for now if possible.

The round circle near the battery is presumably the ignition switch? It looks like the 12v goes to the coil first. Off the coil goes to the Digiplex 2 module. Make sure 12v is going through here.

Wire marked 9 should be the ignition drive signal. This will tell you if the Digiplex 2 is even trying to drive the ignition coil. Multimeter on voltage mode should hopefully show a fluctuating voltage when cranking. Ideally connect a oscilloscope to check. 

Injection control is separate to the ignition. So it does reduce the possibilities of what can be wrong to essentially around this system. With only one input sensor (crank), it should work if that's coming in and that starter signal has triggered it.

[egg]

2 minutes ago, RayMK said:

They were not keen to take it further because, although there is a rudimentary diagnostic connector on the loom under the bonnet, no-one (including long established Fiat dealers) has the original Fiat diagnostic device or anything compatible with it.

OK so no kind of generic OBD1 tester like my Gunson 4127 would work?

I've just checked the instructions- and although it covers loads of makes, seems not fiat 

[RayMK]

@egg  We assumed this was the diagnostic connector shown in the appropriate wiring diagram as existing somewhere in the engine bay.  The Digiplex 2 ECU large connector is disconnected and out of view in this shot.

[egg]

28 minutes ago, RayMK said:

@egg  We assumed this was the diagnostic connector shown in the appropriate wiring diagram as existing somewhere in the engine bay.  The Digiplex 2 ECU large connector is disconnected and out of view in this shot.

That doesn't seem to correspond with any of the connectors I have, unless you just push in the 3 flat pins one.

Maybe ask the Fiat Owners club?  Or maybe Ferrari!!

[SiC]

1 hour ago, RayMK said:

@egg  We assumed this was the diagnostic connector shown in the appropriate wiring diagram as existing somewhere in the engine bay.  The Digiplex 2 ECU large connector is disconnected and out of view in this shot.

That looks like what it should be from reading the Tipo and Uno wiring diagrams on Haynes I've found on the internet.

The Tipo Haynes only shows Digiplex 2 for the 1.6. Uno shows it for the 1.4 i.e. So presumably the Tipo Haynes doesn't have your runout model (it is a scanned in copy of an old book by the looks of it).

Both the Tipo and Uno for the Digiplex 2 seem to line up. Also line up with that russian description. Tipo is DGT which I assume means carb, if so the extra line (pin 7) to the idle cut off on the carb.

Probably the Uno 1.4 i.e. wiring diagram is more accurate because of it being fuel injected? (Is "i.e." fuel injected in Italian??)

Anyway I'd definitely check on the Digiplex 2 connector:

- 12v power on for power input pin (pin 5) 

- 12v power on the Starter relay input signal (pin 3) when cranked on the ignition switch

- Ground by checking Resistance between Pin 10 and battery negative 

- Resistance/continuity between pin 11 and coil position (pin 1 on coil). 

- Test light between pin 11 and ground will tell you if Digiplex is triggering the coil

 - TDC sensor resistance between pins 7 and pins 8

- Pin 4 goes to the throttle body for idle detection. I believe this should show shorted to ground at idle and open circuit when TB is open (continuity or resistance check). Shouldn't cause ignition to not fire though.

- Pin 7 goes to the diagnostic connector, so don't worry about that

All the above is about it as far as connections to the ignition module goes. I did see an article about repairing the Digiplex 2, so it does appear they're not infallible. However if you've got a known good unit, it's unlikely to be that. 

I was also wrong reading through the diagram that is connects to the Bosch ECU. It doesn't as far as I can tell the ignition system is completely independent from the injection system. 

Does your car have a rev counter?

[RayMK]

@SiC  Thanks for that.  We know where the crank sensor is but not the other one - probably because there isn't one!  My Tipo does not have a tacho. Trim level is too basic.  Electric front windows is about all it's got above a base model.  I'll look for the starter relay to ECU wire condition/continuity.

Regarding your last post (below), that was my plan for next week.  Thanks for perusing the subject matter with more knowledgeable eyes.  

[SiC]

8 minutes ago, RayMK said:

@SiC  Thanks for that.  We know where the crank sensor is but not the other one - probably because there isn't one!  My Tipo does not have a tacho. Trim level is too basic.  Electric front windows is about all it's got above a base model.  I'll look for the starter relay to ECU wire condition/continuity.

Digiplex 1 had two sensors. Digiplex 2 had one sensor.

Easiest way I can see to tell the difference is looking at the connector. Digiplex 2 has no connections on Pin 1 and Pin 2. 

The two unit typed aren't interchangeable, even though the connector maybe similar/same.

Should be able to connect a test light between ground and Pin 3. Starting should light the test light. While there, probe pin 5 with the same probe and check for 12v input.

Probe pin 11 and it should light. That's going through coil so dimly as there will be some coil resistance.

Change the test light lead to battery positive terminal. Probe pin 10 for ground - should light up. Might as well check pin 4 for idle detection on the throttle body. Again it should light. 

Then check resistance across 7 and 8 for TDC sensor. 

All that should determine if the connections and power are good. Test light possibly more useful here as the brightness also gives you an indication of high resistance on those pins. If all checks okay, some more figuring may need to be involved. (i.e. waveform of TDC sensor)

[SiC]

Incidentally going by the photos of it, it looks like an incredibly clean car. While not a 90s FIAT fan (I don't dislike them but just don't find them that interesting to be on my radar), it definitely looks to be worth saving if possible. There really can't be many 90s Tipo's left on the road now. 

 

[RetroShite]

Picked up this Suzuki from Tickman during the week. It ran ok when I bought it but now is refusing to start and I can't really be arsed spending any time on it.

I thought fuck it, I'll raffle it off at £2 a go thinking that I might get £20 for it but it's went absolutely crazy overnight and currently has 463 entries. 

[Tickman]

I wonder why it is being a shit and not behaving, it has always just worked using the choke.

Glad that the ticket sales have covered your costs and hopefully some for the hassle.

[richardmorris]

[Ghosty]

On 10/4/2023 at 10:13 AM, egg said:

what a spot from this lad!  Taxed and insured...

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cx59jDmoGZS/

Haha, he's a right character is Brisdion. He's just bought a Carina II after he somehow snapped the cam (!) on his Sunny.
That 305 is something of a landmark to spotters.

[RetroShite]

3 hours ago, Tickman said:

I wonder why it is being a shit and not behaving, it has always just worked using the choke.

Glad that the ticket sales have covered your costs and hopefully some for the hassle.

Not entirely sure, rode it around the yard when I got back, put it away and now won't start. Seems to be getting a spark but if fuel is left on it starts pissing out of the overflow. Perhaps a fuel blockage of some sort, probably an easy fix but I have zero enthusiasm at the moment.

[stuboy]

God's sake pop by erindoors and just as I'm leaving oh yeah your galaxy's making a strange noise... pas is low ... looks ill be grabbing a bottle in the morning and top it up.   Arrrggghhh

[RetroShite]

Got the 205's together earlier, I think we're going to keep the petrol 5 door and raffle off the diesel.

I prefer the way the petrol one drives and 4 doors are more practical for me.

[egg]

You may have had to write in a weekly 'news' book when you were at primary school. I still have mine, cos my parents hoarded, and now I can't throw 'em. I like this entry.

Friday 15 February 1985 - If I were a millionaire - If I were a millionaire I would have a cottage in the country with a field behind it. With a pony in it. and I would buy a TR7 and I would get married and have a baby. And if a war came the house would sink under the ground and breathing holes would come out of the roof and guns would come out of the roof too.

[trigger]

When I bought my Capri the drivers seat had a annoying hole from where the original elderly owner used to slide into the car 

It's been bugging me all year, I've been struggling to find a replacement without spending silly money but last weekend i managed to find a replacement passenger seat and rear seat about a hour away on Facebook so £65 was handed over and I bought this home

I went to see a local trimmer with the seats Wednesday, last night I get a text saying they are ready to be collected.

What a difference! She swapped the side panel over, replaced the foam bolster, repaired the side vinyl and even cleaned the seat and charged £110.

 I can't say fairer than that!

[GMcD]

Looks great 👍

[High Jetter]

1 hour ago, egg said:

You may have had to write in a weekly 'news' book when you were at primary school. I still have mine, cos my parents hoarded, and now I can't throw 'em. I like this entry.

Friday 15 February 1985 - If I were a millionaire - If I were a millionaire I would have a cottage in the country with a field behind it. With a pony in it. and I would buy a TR7 and I would get married and have a baby. And if a war came the house would sink under the ground and breathing holes would come out of the roof and guns would come out of the roof too.

Cottage, pony, TR7. Plus guns. Sounds ideal!

[egg]

New Nexens on the front for the i10 today...replacing Nexens. They are a bit expensive because 175/60/14 is quite a rare size compared to 175/65/14.

[richardmorris]

British ironworks, Oswestry.

[richardmorris]