project 1951 Lanchester LD10 - Rear Corner Inspection

[lesapandre]

A lot more LD10 original information here - quite a lot :

http://ld10.awardspace.co.uk/index_6.htm

http://ld10.awardspace.co.uk/index.htm

[kirton]

You mentioned you didn't like pushing it in/out of the garage;  when I had a car with a starting handle and a narrow garage I took the sparking plugs out, put in in first or reverse and wound the car in and out, easy and controllable - not sure if it will work with the preselector

[lesapandre]

Sales Brochure for a Briggs body car on Ebay.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203001067341

[captain_70s]

49 minutes ago, lesapandre said:

A lot more LD10 original information here - quite a lot :

http://ld10.awardspace.co.uk/index_6.htm

http://ld10.awardspace.co.uk/index.htm

I remember reading that buyers guide in PC when it first came out. It's the only reason I know what an LD10 is!

The price guides are enough to make you weep though, £3k for a minter and £1500 for a decent runner... Such halcyon days...

[wuvvum]

46 minutes ago, kirton said:

You mentioned you didn't like pushing it in/out of the garage;  when I had a car with a starting handle and a narrow garage I took the sparking plugs out, put in in first or reverse and wound the car in and out, easy and controllable - not sure if it will work with the preselector

I don't think it will - the fluid flywheel doesn't take up drive until about 1,000 rpm - you might be pushing it to spin the engine over that fast with the starting handle...

[vulgalour]

@captain_70s Oily rag sorts are a bit more difficult to value so on the face of things any amount can be regarded as wrong.  That said, I don't think we paid far off the estimates given in PC, if you take inflation into consideration.  This car was £1800, and we know it does run decently when the spark leads stay put (we're assuming the gearbox, etc. are fine at this point) so that's not far off what they suggested.  LD10s don't make that much money, even in exceptional condition, they're one of those cars that just don't grab the attention of people who buy cars of this vintage.  That's probably because of personal experience, it seems everyone with personal experience of the Lanchester has found them charming in their own way, and also ponderous, old-fashioned, and generally a little bit dreadful.  Since I like cars that are ponderous, old-fashioned, and a little bit dreadful we'll likely get along just fine and the other half is good with it because he regards the Lanchester like an elderly dog that nobody wanted to adopt, which isn't far off the mark.

When we've gone through everything I doubt we'll have done better than break even.  Luckily, we're not in it for the money so that's not an issue.  The thing I do find odd about the LD10 is that it's all the things you want in a Proper Classic (tm), condensed to a suitable size for modern life.  You'd also think the Lanchester pedigree would help its cause with the flat cappers who always love to wax lyrical about The Empire And All That.  Lanchester is if not the earliest, then certainly one of the earliest British car companies hailing from the very late 19th century, and of course it has the whole Royal Family endorsement thing.  There's all the hallmarks there for an expensive and exclusive little car and yet oiks like me can acquire one and look well above our station.

[lesapandre]

In relative terms both the traditional Daimlers and Lanchesters don't seem to make that much. The workmanship on these is incredibly good. All the problems will be age and neglect - the mix of tyres would seem to indicate the car went through a difficult time in the 70's-80's. I also think the pre-select gearbox puts some people off - unjustly really.  While a lot of new 'classics' have emerged (Fords especially) these have remained in a sort of twilight zone.

[egg]

how fast do you have to come on and off the 'clutch' - is it literally like a switch?

[vulgalour]

As I understand it, it's just a switch, it's not progressive like a clutch.  The pre-selector gets all the mechanism in the right place, and then the pedal is just to engage what you've lined up.  That's based on observation and our attempt to get it to move.  It doesn't feel like a clutch pedal, it feels like a switch.

[PhilA]

I would guess so; then, like mine you should be able to increase revs a little and it should then begin to make progress.

Is the fluid flywheel a sealed unit or does it use the engine's oil?

[vulgalour]

It's separate from the engine.  Manual states the oil never needs to be changed and that it should also be checked and topped up at regular intervals.  Which means the seals don't actually seal fully, which seems to be normal for this era of stuff.

[PhilA]

Yeah, then it will have interestingly snatchy characteristics until it's warm- which shouldn't take long even at idle.

I'm guessing yours is directly on the flywheel. Mine is geared so at idle it is rotating too slowly to have any effect on moving the car (250rpm or thereabouts), once it's up to about 500-600 the car starts to move and by 800 it's almost locked solid.

Do you know what the engine idle speed is meant to be, in gear, stationary?

[wuvvum]

I'd imagine it idles a little higher than yours - yours has double the bangs per rotation.  On my Conquest it started to move around 800rpm and was locked by just over 1,000.

The gearchange pedal can be used as a clutch pedal for pulling away and manoeuvring - there is a little bit of progressiveness (progressivity?) there - but doing so will fuck the transmission up in very short order.  The only time I have ever told off a buyer of one of my cars was when the chap who bought the Conquest was using the left pedal as a clutch to get it onto the trailer.

The "correct" way to change gear is to come on and off the pedal as quickly as possible - not quite a "kick" but not far off.

[PhilA]

Understandable- mine has a very large set of bands on each drum and under gentle acceleration takes no longer than a second to fully engage. Under more than about 2/10 throttle it is nearly immediate. You don't want to be slipping the friction material of you can help it. 

Yes, mine has a stupidly low idle anyway (375 rpm in gear) so I'm thinking probably 650-750 is the range this one would be happy at warm? That should allow the vehicle to come to a brief halt in gear and be able to leave it there for a few seconds before pulling away again but I'd imagine the general practice is to knock it into N whenever possible in traffic.

 

The book describes the function of the fluid flywheel as being twofold- first it allows the car to sit stationary with the engine running and a gear selected, second it cushions the gear changes a little by allowing the engine a moment to catch up. Looking at an exploded diagram I would expect the behavior of the Daimler unit to be similar. It should be fairly efficient despite not being split torque.

[dollywobbler]

32 minutes ago, wuvvum said:

I'd imagine it idles a little higher than yours - yours has double the bangs per rotation.  On my Conquest it started to move around 800rpm and was locked by just over 1,000.

The gearchange pedal can be used as a clutch pedal for pulling away and manoeuvring - there is a little bit of progressiveness (progressivity?) there - but doing so will fuck the transmission up in very short order.  The only time I have ever told off a buyer of one of my cars was when the chap who bought the Conquest was using the left pedal as a clutch to get it onto the trailer.

The "correct" way to change gear is to come on and off the pedal as quickly as possible - not quite a "kick" but not far off.

Which is rather depressing, because the only Conquest I've driven was around the Browns Lane factory site, just before it was all pulled down, and the volunteer kept telling me you had to 'slip' the clutch. I just sort of didn't in the hope he wouldn't notice. I'd already driven a Ferret so I knew how it was meant to work.

I absolutely love this thread.

[lesapandre]

3 hours ago, vulgalour said:

It's separate from the engine.  Manual states the oil never needs to be changed and that it should also be checked and topped up at regular intervals.  Which means the seals don't actually seal fully, which seems to be normal for this era of stuff.

My pre-war Lanchester had felt seals on the engine if I recall right. They dry out but work ok when bathed in oil. If you can do an oil change in the gb I would try maybe given the time it has stood. This is one to contact the owners club on possibly re taking one out of hibernation.

[vulgalour]

One wiring loom ordered. Selected the power outlet option, and the indicators-with-semaphores option since those are the items we know we want. If we do want to fit a radio or anything else further down the line, we will have a nice blank slate to work from.

It was just over £420 from Autosparks, delivered. There was so much positive information out there about them and it's so convenient that it seemed like a very sensible option. Covid means there's a bit of a delay on actually getting the loom out, but that's okay, we're not in an enormous rush.

At least now we'll know the car will have safe wiring. Later we'll get all the bulbs and such that we need. I had expected it to take us a bit longer to get the funds together for the loom, but I had some orders come through today that had been on hold for a little while that had been holding things up. Everything keeps going right at the moment, it's making me very nervous.

[PhilA]

You're due things going right for a change.

Hopefully that's all good and goes together nicely. It should provide freedom from what I would define as "the bloody stupids", meaning the gremlins that return in a different guise each time and make you utter "that was bloody stupid" when you fix it. Again.

[MJK 24]

On 8/11/2020 at 2:16 AM, HarmonicCheeseburger said:

If you ever do present it for a MOT for whatever reason, please do find the most modern shiny, spotlessly clean high tech place you can possibly find.  And film their reaction as you rattle up with this. 

 Book it in with your local Audi dealer.

[LightBulbFun]

I have a feeling it would probably get failed on something not applicable to it

so I say the DVSA should hire it from @vulgalour to use it as one of their test cars they take to make sure MOT stations are doing a good job/know what their doing LOL

 

loving the work done so far, nice to see it shine a little once more  keep up the good work I look forward to seeing more, hopefully the drive or well at least the first move under its own power event is not far off  

[MJK 24]

Great thread on a great car.  I’ve really enjoyed reading this, this evening!

[plasticvandan]

The reason it's going well is possibly because you are working on a car from the peak period of British industry,rather than its lowest....or French.

Autosparks have a good rep,I hope it's cloth covered ?

[Tadhg Tiogar]

30 minutes ago, MJK 24 said:

 Book it in with your local Audi dealer.

There aren't many Audi dealers today who can still cope with the cars built in the 1980s or earlier. Same goes for other marques, except maybe Mercedes, which tends not to view its history as disposable in the way that Citroën does.

Maybe basic oil/filter changes and brake renewals, but that's about it. 

[wuvvum]

23 hours ago, vulgalour said:

Everything keeps going right at the moment, it's making me very nervous.

I know, I hate it when that happens...

[406V6]

On 8/10/2020 at 6:21 PM, vulgalour said:

Lovely old car and great to see the sympathetic way you're approaching its restoration.  You're fortunate to have a garage and there's plenty of space around it compared to wide modern cars.  A little concerned though about the garage roof which looks like it might be corrugated asbestos.

[Tadhg Tiogar]

Presumably you'll be properly attired when you drive this: sober suit and tie (properly knotted; none of that half-Windsor shite), proper shoes, and a trilby. And also a pipe, preferably stuffed with Ringer's Shag*

 

 

*other tobaccos are available 

[vulgalour]

Don't worry about the garage roof, it's corrugated bitumen rather than asbestos.  We're planning to replace it with some better roofing, ideally with a clear section to let a bit more daylight in, probably polycarb sheeting or something like that.

The loom looks to be a direct copy of the original, complete with cloth covering and all the connectors done so we're hopefully it's just plug and play as much as these things are.  Lead time is about 10 weeks at the moment, partly due to Covid, so there's plenty of time to fettle with lots of other bits and pieces on the car.  In the meantime the goal is to get the car running better, get the brakes adjusted correctly, fresh fluids, finish the polishing and generally keep  cleaning it up so the grot factor will be pretty low when we're putting the new wires in.

[vulgalour]

Had a little time during my lunch break today to crack on fitting the new rocker cover gasket.  We'd ordered one since it was only a tenner and the gasket on the car was leaking quite badly.  The rocker cover itself is, surprisingly (though perhaps this is more normal for cars of this era, so only surprising to us since we're new to them) cast aluminium.  It's a bit of a fiddle to get it out past the heater pipes and the rocker assembly, there's a knack to it, and the radiator stay bars get in the way a bit too.  Not the friendliest engine bay and also not the worst.  With the rocker cover off it was a lot easier to see why the old seal was leaking, a couple of pieces of the old gasket were missing and the gasket itself had gone hard with old age.  One curious thing is the electrical tape tabs on the corners, the only thing we could think those are for is to pull the corners out when aligning the gasket.  The gasket had also been held on with some white sealant of some sort, though not massive amounts and it looks like the rocker cover may have been repainted at least once.  Much of the paint on the top is flaking off, the temptation to polish the cover is quite high, it would probably come up beautifully.

The cover itself is bolted down with two bolts that have lovely knurled heads on them, that's the two larger holes in the middle.  The other hole with the gasket hanging off goes to the air cleaner, we're missing one of the bolts (there's quite a few fixing bolts missing here and there),  The large disc is the oil filler cap, it looks like the whole thing might have been chromed originally, now it's just the knob on the top and a bit underneath it, while the rest of the disc is tarnished brass.  After cleaning the inside and outside of the cover as much as was necessary, I cleaned the gasket mating face off with some fine wet and dry paper before using the gel superglue provided to tack the cork gasket in place.  There's no groove for the gasket to go in, it just sits against two flat faces (one on the cover, one on the engine) and without the superglue, the long sides of the gasket try and pull in and can be a bit of a nuisance to align.  For the engine side, just a clean was required, the oil leak had washed away any sort of sealing material that might have been there and it was clean enough to not warrant the wet and dry the cover required.

Once I was sure that was set, it was a case of finegling the cover back onto the engine.  It was now much more pleasant to handle since it didn't have oily deposits on the lower inch or so.  You have to hook the rear passenger side of the cover over the rocker assembly first, easing it past the heater pipe, and then the whole rocker cover just plops neatly into place.  Fixing it down is simple a case of dropping the knurled head bolts into their holes and doing them up until it feels snug.  I'll recheck these bolts again since the gasket is likely to settle a little and they'll probably need another half turn or so.

A very pleasant, easy job.  You can also spy our new unfinished plug leads in that last shot, we're just waiting on the spark plug and coil end covers for the leads to arrive, which they should be in a few days' time, and that should address the idling issue since the leads will actually connect properly.  More on why those weren't working properly when the new leads are finished and installed.  The spark leads are red because they just are (well, actually the other half wanted red ones and it was as good an excuse as any).  As it happens, the spark plug covers we ordered in black were out of stock when they went to pick them and they asked if we'd like red ones instead for the same price, so perhaps the red wires were a good choice after all.

 

[Noel Tidybeard]

after reading the comments on the dash lighting one has come to the conclusion your car may* still have the black out bulbs fitted!

[PhilA]

Red wires add horsepowers. Good choice.