invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

50 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

I really should check what's actually in TPA's carb one day. The main jet is the one thing I didn't note when I took it apart for cleaning as it was visually obvious where it went.  The correction net is 220 rather than 230 on the sheets though.  The idle jet matches though.  

It's something that I've done very little with to be honest as it's largely just behaved since I took it apart to the be cleaned the second time round.  There is quite a bit of wear on the throttle shaft as I recall though which will eventually want looking at.  It's one of those things I'm loathe to mess with it when it's generally working though!

Yeah! I was immediately thinking "I wonder whats in TPA's carb" since I know she goes well, but exactly as you say, its all working well! so I was/am not going to ask you to take it all apart just for my sake

45 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

I think if the carbs were not generally interchangeable between different mod 70 engines the service manual would say so.   It may even be the case that Weber supplied a batch of whatever they had in stock at the time which was within spec. 

You are dealing with a worn engine, with a different blend of fuel, and different ignition timing, to what it was designed for, so none of those carb specs may be exactly right for it.  If it starts easily and runs well, with reasonable fuel consumption, that is about the best you can do.  You may be able to find a little more power or economy by swapping carbs, but it won't be startlingly different, so if it ain't broke, don't fix it basically.  

Remember that the carburettor doesn't pump fuel in.  It simply responds to the suction of the engine.  The jets have to be considered as a matched set, to provide the correct mixture at all throttle openings, and changing just one of them won't necessarily have a good outcome. 

If you want to get into the theory then "Tuning Weber Carburettors" by John Passini.  It is not a 5 minute read.  Tbf it deals more with the sports/racing types and it's an old book now, but it does show how complex the subject is.

Btw did you manage to source a kingpin kit?

well heres the thing, the engine section in the Model 70 workshop manual is *not* Model 70 specific its just the English Steyr Puch 500 engine workshop manual, inserted in

you will note at the start how the Ministry specifically tells the reader to disregard certain sections of it because of that.

and to that end, if the carburettor stuff did not matter so much then, then *why* did Weber/Steyr Puch/the Ministry whoever, specifically go out of their way to change the carburettor  

you will note the documentation *specifically* states Invacar for the 32ICS10T 

forgive me for being inquisitive but I wanna know what the deal was with that so to speak  

its also worth nothing for example, no Model 70 *ever* shipped with a Solex carburettor for example, certainly I have never seen one such equipped in all the examples I have been involved with

(I have also heard but not yet fully confirmed, that the Steyr Puch engine itself was of a specification unique to the Model 70 when looking at the fine details)

im trying to figure this out, not just for REV's sake, but also just general Invacar research sake,

I mean common your talking to someone here who spent plenty of time researching all of all the fine differences in the mouldings and fibreglass texture between an AC and Invacar Model 70's bodywork  

 

(I like to think of myself as the sole Invacar rivet counter in some regards )

[Sheefag]

3 minutes ago, chadders said:

Do you know if either supplied invacares for street or chase scenes?

The opening of 'The Sweeney' would be a bit different and Reagan and Carter would also be a tad cramped. Mind you as it apparently can go as fast backwards as forwards there'd be no need for those awkward J turns where it'd fall over.

Well, when it comes to poor decisions, look no further than Verity Lambert. She went from the groundbreaking Producers role in the Sweeney and ended up convincing the BBC to spunk shedloads on the awful and universally derided soap, Eldorado.

[Zelandeth]

She will be wanting a service and thorough check over end to end before she's back out in the spring anyway so no reason I couldn't check then.  No major strip down needed to get to the main jet at least.

[LightBulbFun]

28 minutes ago, AdgeCutler said:

After being asked to take Brian to a local car meet it was time to fling open his shed door, he hasn't seen the light of day for some time now. I've been around all the lubrication points and applied motion lotion and washed off all the filth that had accumulated on the body over the winter. Upon turning the ignition key he burst into life immediately and is ready for the (hopefully not too windy) outing tomorrow. 

very Awesome to see Brian again, I was just thinking about him recently! wondering how things where getting on  

 

pretty cool to see him parked in the front of a house like that! its much like how you saw Invalid vehicles back in the day  

I wonder if the dog is singing "how much for that Invacar in the driveway"

[Mr Pastry]

7 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

nd to that end, if the carburettor stuff did not matter so much then, then *why* did Weber/Steyr Puch/the Ministry whoever, specifically go out of their way to change the carburettor  

you will note the documentation *specifically* states Invacar for the 32ICS10T 

forgive me for being inquisitive but I wanna know what the deal was with that so to speak

Possibly because  CVT rather than manual? But FFS find something more important to worry about.

[LightBulbFun]

6 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Possibly because  CVT rather than manual? But FFS find something more important to worry about.

Sorry my intention was never to frustrate you, I know you are of a good technical mind, so I thought you might be interested in seeing what the fine differences where

often times I find these detailed differences can often explain a much large picture so to speak

[lesapandre]

17 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

very Awesome to see Brian again, I was just thinking about him recently! wondering how things where getting on  

 

pretty cool to see him parked in the front of a house like that! its much like how you saw Invalid vehicles back in the day  

I wonder if the dog is singing "how much for that Invacar in the driveway"

Great photo that. The dog is silhouetted in the reflection of the windscreen.

Regards to technical matters re: carbs etc. The 70's and 80's were so problematic regarding the way businesses were run, industrial relations and parts suppliers that they may have just put on what was to hand both when new and in service?

I'm old enough to remember these on the road - gentleman in our village had one - I remember it's distinctive engine note.

In many ways a great size - I also remember they used to drive right up to the pitch at sporting events giving those with disabilities a grandstand view.

Microcars generally have a huge following in France. I'll look for the French equivalent when I'm over.

An invacar would go down a storm at a big French car show -  even the Reliant Robin is itself a source of huge interest. Massive interest in British cars - especially rarer stuff.

[Snake Charmer]

29 minutes ago, chadders said:

Do you know if either supplied invacares for street or chase scenes?

The opening of 'The Sweeney' would be a bit different and Reagan and Carter would also be a tad cramped. Mind you as it apparently can go as fast backwards as forwards there'd be no need for those awkward J turns where it'd fall over.

 

The Sweeney would have had used Daf 33 for more stability and greater speed in the J-turn, the 33 van would have been used in some episodes for blagger surveillance. Later episodes would be 44 or Volvo versions for greater prestige and increased sales.

[chadders]

10 minutes ago, Christine said:

20 bhp isn't gonna make an 400kg invacar do 82.. it just isn't... 

A mini 850 with 34hp is regularly quoted as having a 72 mph top speed.

Without getting into relative drag coefficients and frontal areas a 10% increase in top speed needs about a 1.1x1.1x1.1 increase in hp, I think that it's actually to the power of 2.8 rather than 3 but that's not significant, so a bit over a 30% increase. All other things being equal a mini with 44hp would do just under 80mph.

It'd probably read a lot more on the speedo though.

[Christine]

I looked at the Peel ..50cc 4 bhp .. 50 mph ?     really ? 

I would like to see an onboard   video , of  Dez doing 70 along the m25 . Is that too much to ask ? 

[Snake Charmer]

The Weber carb number may not be down to jet sizes, the idle and progression drillings on the carburettor body may be different for the application to remove flat spots.

[Christine]

7 minutes ago, chadders said:

A mini 850 with 34hp is regularly quoted as having a 72 mph top speed.

Without getting into relative drag coefficients and frontal areas a 10% increase in top speed needs about a 1.1x1.1x1.1 increase in hp, I think that it's actually to the power of 2.8 rather than 3 but that's not significant, so a bit over a 30% increase. All other things being equal a mini with 44hp would do just under 80mph.

It'd probably read a lot more on the speedo though.

C'mon , we all could get a mini 850 speedo needle past the fuel gauge..

[lesapandre]

25 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

very Awesome to see Brian again, I was just thinking about him recently! wondering how things where getting on  

 

pretty cool to see him parked in the front of a house like that! its much like how you saw Invalid vehicles back in the day  

I wonder if the dog is singing "how much for that Invacar in the driveway"

Surely he's singing...

'We all drive in a turquoise mean machine - a turquoise mean machine...'

(To the tune of Yellow Submarine)

[Mr Pastry]

 

15 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

often times I find these detailed differences can often explain a much large picture so to speak

Not studied it, but I think with a CVT, especially with a relatively small engine, you would have to try and tune the engine for torque and flexibility rather than top end power. 

[chadders]

1 minute ago, Christine said:

C'mon , we all could get a mini 850 speedo needle past the fuel gauge..

I did with mine, even though it was weighed down by tons of Wob.

I tend to think that it was over reading a tad though.

[Jim Bergerac]

41 minutes ago, Sheefag said:

Well, when it comes to poor decisions, look no further than Verity Lambert. She went from the groundbreaking Producers role in the Sweeney and ended up convincing the BBC to spunk shedloads on the awful and universally derided soap, Eldorado.

Without Eldorado we would never have had the seamless continuity of the closing scene of the series:

Within a few years Marcus Tandy, was of course, ragging around Docklands in a Jeep Cherokee with Craig "Mona" McLachlan in Bugs. 

[Sheefag]

A very reasonable £29.99, buys you a jigsaw of Sandra Sandri who played Marcus Tandy's nubile love interest, Pilar Moreno, dressed as Father Christmas by a swimming pool. Astonishing value, I'm sure you'll agree.

https://www.mediastorehouse.com/jigsaw-puzzles/memory-lane-prints/mirror/0100to0199-00133/actress-sandra-sandri-television-programme-21493296.html

 

[chadders]

I never watched that.

Maybe I should have.

[Sheefag]

That was the problem, no fucker did.

[RoverFolkUs]

Has the rent gone up in the politics section? Everyone seems to have moved to this thread to argue about things 🤣

[timolloyd]

40 minutes ago, Christine said:

I would like to see an onboard   video , of  Dez doing 70 along the m25 . Is that too much to ask ? 

This is straying dangerously close to Stalwart-Channel-crossing territory

[Sheefag]

I, and I'm sure I speak for many others, would part with good money for the opportunity to watch the first attempted channel crossing by an Invercare.

[Dobloseven]

34 minutes ago, Sheefag said:

A very reasonable £29.99, buys you a jigsaw of Sandra Sandri who played Marcus Tandy nubile love interest, Pilar Moreno, dressed as Father Christmas by a swimming pool. Astonishing value, I'm sure you'll agree.

https://www.mediastorehouse.com/jigsaw-puzzles/memory-lane-prints/mirror/0100to0199-00133/actress-sandra-sandri-television-programme-21493296.html

 

Does anyone actually pay thirty quid for a picture you have to put together yourself?

[Sheefag]

Worse than that, you have to put it together with just one hand.

[LightBulbFun]

34 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Not studied it, but I think with a CVT, especially with a relatively small engine, you would have to try and tune the engine for torque and flexibility rather than top end power. 

the fact its CVT and could be tuned for that is a good point! I know the flywheel on the Model 70 engine is quite the heavy lump and of course modified to take the 3 clutch shoes, well I dont know if its modified in the sense the hubs where modified items or if it was produce from the factory to take the clutch shoes, but what I mean is of course, its different from a regular Steyr Puch 500 flywheel  

what I am/was not sure is if the fly wheel itself clutch mounting aside, was also different in other aspects to a regular Steyr puch 500 engine

but doing a quick check with a good youtube channel I know for this sort of thing, seems to imply that it is different/a unique part to the Model 70 (I knew I had heard of people changing the flywheel when using salvaged Model 70 engines in other vehicles so I did wonder)

(that youtube channel has a fair number of  steyr puch parts comparisons all the different sorts over time and between the different vehicles, its quite interesting  )

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, chadders said:

2 hours ago, Christine said:

20 bhp isn't gonna make an 400kg invacar do 82.. it just isn't... 

A mini 850 with 34hp is regularly quoted as having a 72 mph top speed.

Without getting into relative drag coefficients and frontal areas a 10% increase in top speed needs about a 1.1x1.1x1.1 increase in hp, I think that it's actually to the power of 2.8 rather than 3 but that's not significant, so a bit over a 30% increase. All other things being equal a mini with 44hp would do just under 80mph.

It'd probably read a lot more on the speedo though.

funnily enough there was a bit of theoretical calculations done a while back to see what the figures looked like there

https://autoshite.com/topic/29443-zels-motoring-adventurespeugeot-renault-rover-trabant-invacar-a-sinclair-c5-2901-tyre-time/page/103/#comment-2193730

 

 

1 hour ago, Christine said:

I would like to see an onboard   video , of  Dez doing 70 along the m25 . Is that too much to ask ? 

I can give you a messerschmitt KR200 doing 74 round the M25  

 

the chap has a few videos like this, quite fun to watch, for all that people think microcars are slow or the such like! I wonder what all the other traffic thought! 

I mean how would you react if you saw a kabinenroller cruse past you in the outside lane  

[Mr Pastry]

13 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

seems to imply that it is different/a unique part to the Model 70

It looks like a special flywheel to me, drilled for clutch shoe pivots and no ring gear so presumably Steyr Puch would fit what the customer wanted.  And it is pictured on the engine shown in the the Mod 70 manual.

[chadders]

13 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

funnily enough there was a bit of theoretical calculations done a while back to see what the figures looked like there

https://autoshite.com/topic/29443-zels-motoring-adventurespeugeot-renault-rover-trabant-invacar-a-sinclair-c5-2901-tyre-time/page/103/#comment-2193730

 

 

I can give you a messerschmitt KR200 doing 74 round the M25  

 

the chap has a few videos like this, quite fun to watch, for all that people think microcars are slow or the such like! I wonder what all the other traffic thought! 

I mean how would you react if you saw a kabinenroller cruse past you in the outside lane  

If I remember correctly speedos have to over read by law.

I'm not going to argue with the theoretical calculations as you'd just dispute my points and I don't want to be bombarded with a wall of text. What I will say is you can believe what you want, I still think a true 80 or 82mph is rubbish as even invacares can't break the laws of physics. 

[LightBulbFun]

44 minutes ago, chadders said:

If I remember correctly speedos have to over read by law.

Model 70 speedometers, at least the smaller Mark A type, have been found to be surprisingly accurate  

 

On 10/09/2020 at 02:21, Zelandeth said:

On 09/09/2020 at 23:14, LightBulbFun said:

Woo Go TPA  

im curious do you know how accurate the speedo is against GPS or such?

Astonishingly accurate.  According to the GPS speedometer app on my phone, 60mph is an indicated 61mph on the dash.

Far more accurate than anything else in the fleet!

I am not sure how accurate the larger speedometers on the Post March 1976 Model 70's are, I guess thats something else @red5 can check for us  

 

44 minutes ago, chadders said:

I'm not going to argue with the theoretical calculations as you'd just dispute my points and I don't want to be bombarded with a wall of text. What I will say is you can believe what you want, I still think a true 80 or 82mph is rubbish as even invacares can't break the laws of physics. 

well thats the point  no one knows for sure where this 82Mph figures come from, at the same time no one has actually verifiably maxed out a Model 70, and in the absence of that, I have been trying to figure out from the data I do have if 82Mph is actually achievable or not

but sadly no ones put a Model 70 in a wind tunnel and modelled its aerodynamic properties, I mean I still want to see a Model 70 on a rolling road someday  

 

the highest top speed I have for a Model 70, that I know is from a source unlikely to be fucking me about, is 78Mph, and thats what I tell people "82Mph is the commonly thrown around figure but no ones knows where that comes from, highest top speed I have personally been able to verify is 78Mph" 

even so on that 78Mph figure, and as I understand it the person driving that Model 70 had to slow down because they where catching up with traffic, not that their Model 70 had stopped accelerating  

 

and in general I have been told and heard plenty of stories of Model 70's doing 70+ miles an hour, so I dont think its un reasonable to think a Model 70 could exceed the NSL at least

[chadders]

So the 78mph is from a speedo of unknown accuracy, that's hardly a reliable figure never mind verifiable.

I'd be catching up with traffic if they were going slower than me, it doesn't mean that they were doing 70 or I was going more than 70.