Zel's Motoring Adventures...Peugeot, Renault, Rover, Trabant, Invacar & A Sinclair C5 - 19/04 - HVAC Preemptive Investigation...

[High Jetter]

44 minutes ago, Tommyboy12 said:

I'm actually surprised it has actual headgaskets and not just a mated surface. At least it's an easy fix

Pish, propah engineering here

[junkyarddog]

I never really like these,but I'm warming to their simple charm.

AL from 6d Diesels got one too.

Well worth a watch.

[Zelandeth]

1 hour ago, junkyarddog said:

I never really like these,but I'm warming to their simple charm.

AL from 6d Diesels got one too.

Well worth a watch.

This car is one which really has surprised me in a lot of ways.  There is a lot more clever engineering in there than you'd think to look at them.  I mean I picked this up more or less just for a bit of a giggle, I really didn't have particularly high hopes for its abilities to function as An Car in the real world.  However I've wound up using it by default as the daily.  It's silly easy to park, the heater warms up in about a minute, the steering is lighter than many cars with power steering but has good feel, and the performance is entirely adequate around town.  It's a bit bouncy but doesn't knock your teeth out, the driving position is...odd...but actually reasonably comfortable once you're used to it (though I wouldn't want to be there for hours - that's not really what it's designed for though), the boot is a decent size, and it's astonishingly chuckable in the handling department.  Yes it's bleeping noisy - especially if you dare venture above 50mph, the standard equipment lost isn't exactly comprehensive, and there's not really a graceful way to get in/out of the driver's seat if you've got long legs.

I'd really recommend having a proper look at, and if possible have a drive of one if you can.  It's really quite a fascinating little thing.

That's not a channel I've heard of before...why does that look like a potential rabbit hole for me to fall down?

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, junkyarddog said:

I never really like these,but I'm warming to their simple charm.

AL from 6d Diesels got one too.

Well worth a watch.

I love how the bloke in that sounds like and says things just like @Talbot does, but if talbot had a 20 packs a day smoking habit

gives me warm fuzzy feelings of FoD days out  

"the carbatooter" 

[wesacosa]

7 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

.

I'd really recommend having a proper look at, and if possible have a drive of one if you can.  It's really quite a fascinating little thing.

if you want to drive one its a good excuse to go to Berlin, one of the coolest and most interesting cities in Europe, and do the very reasonably priced Trabby Safari 

[TrabbieRonnie]

13 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

...lot more thought given to the air flow over the engine than I expected.  The air paths for the heads and cylinders are completely separate, and there are baffles in place to ensure that as little air is wasted as possible.  The cowl is shaped to get cooling down as close to the exhaust ports as is really practical as well.

I'll try to grab a shot of that in better lighting so it's clearer before it goes back together.

Have you still got the wee rubber pipe that goes from the cowl to the exhaust manifold jacket?  It goes brittle and can easily be lost when removing the cowl (also can be awkward to fit)? 

I couldn't see it in your pics, but it makes a huge difference to cabin heating... you probably know this as you say the heater works well, but thought I'd mention it as mine was in poor condition when I first got it.

Good work again, it'll go a bit better after this job!

[bobdisk]

First time I ever got into a Trabi , let alone drive one, was when I did a Trabi Safari in Berlin, and really enjoyed it!! After reading @Zelandeth  thread , I do intend to get one sometime in the future when circumstances allow.

[bobdisk]

12 hours ago, Tommyboy12 said:

I'm actually surprised it has actual headgaskets and not just a mated surface. At least it's an easy fix

The Daf has accurately machined heads and cylinders that fit inside each other to make a seal.

[Zelandeth]

2 hours ago, TrabbieRonnie said:

Have you still got the wee rubber pipe that goes from the cowl to the exhaust manifold jacket?  It goes brittle and can easily be lost when removing the cowl (also can be awkward to fit)? 

I couldn't see it in your pics, but it makes a huge difference to cabin heating... you probably know this as you say the heater works well, but thought I'd mention it as mine was in poor condition when I first got it.

Good work again, it'll go a bit better after this job!

Originally no, though I had wedged a bit of pipe that kinda sorta almost fit in there.  I do now have a replacement that's the correct size which will go back in along with the cowl.  Fitting it along with that sounds far easier than trying to wrangle it into the tiny space available with everything bolted in place.

[Zelandeth]

Today my thoughts can largely be summarised by a single image.

When I piped up the fuel pump on the Rover a while back, I failed to notice that the hose clip on the output side of that filter had bound up rather than tightening on the hose properly.  This remained unnoticed until this morning when I discovered that the hose had come loose (imagine I probably disturbed it yesterday) and had at some point during the night started to drip fuel onto the driveway.  This continued for several hours until I woke up wondering why the heck the entire house reeked of petrol.  Of course our driveway drains towards the house, so the fuel had run that way (assisted no doubt by the rain last night).  We've had the windows open all day and it's better, but the smell is absolutely still here.  

I am really, really, really annoyed with myself for missing that.  Especially on a safety critical component like the fuel system.  Everything should have been double checked.

In better news, the prototype fuel return line seems to be working just fine.  I had the car run fully up to temperature today without any signs of fuel vaporisation problems as we would usually have been seeing.  

I suspect I am going to have to add a pressure regulator though.  The original return line features a tiny orifice in the fitting where it feeds back into the tank (probably where the line is clogged), so I'll need to emulate that, as without a restriction on the return line it does cause the car to run lean.  Hardly the end of the world, and I had kind of expected as much.

The biggest headache with this setup actually was trying to find a suitable way to get a line from under the car into the boot where my return line goes into the tank.  None of the holes in the boot floor actually go all the way through, just into double skinned sections.  Eventually though I found a way to get there via a wiring pass through into the cabin, and then via a grommet under the rear seat.

This is well clear of the seat base when it's in place.  Hard to see in the photo, but there is a grommet protecting the pipe where it passes through the floor pan too.

I will be re-making this in proper fuel line if this is proven to work, I just don't have enough in stock at the moment so wanted to test the theory with what materials I had to hand and I've been tripping over that spool of brake pipe for about a year and a half now.  It was basically chosen because it was the easiest thing I could find to join to the existing nylon line exiting the carb fuel feed.

Given that this isn't intended to be a long term solution, I didn't want to go drilling holes in anything for this.  The fuel gauge sender/feed/return assembly in the tank will be getting replaced when I have the time and inclination to pull the tank, but that's not today's problem and I'd really like to resume the shakedown period in the interim.  

[Zelandeth]

eBay seller still hasn't dispatched the head gaskets for the Trabant I ordered on Wednesday afternoon.  I am not amused.  Main reason I ordered from them rather than abroad was so they'd get here quicker.  If I'd ordered from Trabantwelt the parts would be in my hands by now.  Yes I'd have paid through the nose for postage, but this is one of those cases where it doesn't matter whether I'm paying £5 or £50, without the parts I can't fix the car!

Grumpy Zel is grumpy.

So I replaced the rear mud flaps.

Car originally had them fitted as the remains were still there.  A worthwhile addition I think, not so much for my benefit, but with the state of the roads around here, if it helps stop me putting a stone kicked up through someone else's windscreen it's worth having them.  Front ones probably will get done tomorrow if the weather plays ball and I get a spare half hour.

[Zelandeth]

Still no sign of the gaskets ordered from eBay.  

Thankfully, a member of the owner's club just half an hour up the road bailed me out with a full engine gasket set they had going spare.  Cheers for that if you're reading this!

Then was a matter of about 20 minutes to get everything put back together.

The fan shroud to manifold cowling hose is now correctly in place.

As is the rubber seal between the shroud and the fan body.

Still have the gasket sitting here for the other cylinder.

I'll go back in and do that as a preventative measure shortly along with a thorough external clean of the engine.  However it was raining sideways the whole time I was doing this today so I just wanted to get the job done as quickly as was reasonably possible.  

Glad I looked up the torque specs for the head nuts - only 42NM, so I'd almost definitely have over tightened those if I was doing it by hand without the torque wrench as that's really not all that tight at all.

Seems to be back to it's old self now I'm glad to report.

[Zelandeth]

Oh look what dropped into my inbox this morning...

First I've ever heard of a courier getting in touch with the sender to say they've lost something without it being chased!  I'm absolutely suuuuuure that's what's happened.  They absolutely didn't forget about the order for a week then realise they were out of stock...Nope, that definitely wouldn't be what happened.

 

Additional:

Had a chat with my usual MOT tester regarding the rust in the boot floor in the Trabant.  He agrees with me that it's well outwith a prescribed area so won't be a problem.  That's good news for me as it takes the urgency off fixing it.  That's a job I'll definitely be farming out to someone with more skills than me.  Probably get that and the rear windscreen surround sorted at the same time.  The rust in the screen surround is how the water is getting into the boot I have confirmed, so it must be actually holed under the rubber - can't say I'm surprised.

Test is booked for the 7th, so should give me time to get the steering rack gaiter changed and properly sort the headlight aim which is still on the low side I think.

If you're reading this Steve, sorry for bringing the workshop to a standstill when I arrived due to everyone's curiosity!

[Zelandeth]

Made a point today before the rain (again) arrived to go over the rear suspension on the Trabant to ensure everything was tight.  I just didn't trust it to be given how many things I'd found not to be.

Sure enough, both of the securing bolts for the offside trailing arm were barely finger tight.

Nearside ones did actually have some tightness to them, but nowhere near what I'd call "tight enough" for the application.  I have to wonder if that's what the clonk from the rear end I'd been blaming on either the bootlid or rear seat when driving out of my driveway was...all I know is the car didn't do it when I pulled out today.

I'm sure there's a large degree of placebo effect going on simply knowing everything is bolted up tightly now (and the wind has dropped) but the car definitely*seems* to feel a lot more stable when driving in a straight line now.

I'm going to give the front end a similar going over at the weekend.

I've also got a bit more power available following a tweak of the throttle cable to remove some of the excessive slack.  I was easily able to take this much up with the adjuster.

This definitely has made the car feel more responsive.

Annoyingly the rubbing noise from one of the rear wheels has returned.  Even more annoyingly I can't now make the car do it with the wheels in the air.  I do note that the offside wheel bearing is definitely more rough than the nearside, not enough I'd worry about it but certainly worth keeping an eye on.  Guess I'll need to pull the drums at some point and see if I can see anything amiss.  I can't feel it through the car or brake pedal, but the noise like a dragging brake shoe is definitely there.  Worth looking in to as I've had a car shed a brake shoe lining before and that was quite exciting when it randomly locked the wheel up without any prior warning.  I'd rather not have that happen halfway around a roundabout in MK.

Any further ideas for doing anything useful were quashed but yet more rain arriving.  Didn't stop me using the car for the afternoon's errands though and once again making the moderns look huge.

Could we knock it off with the rain now please?  Our front lawn is literally under about 1/2" of water just now.

[Zelandeth]

Wanted to further investigate our mystery noise.  I'd originally thought it was a brake dragging, but the fact that the noise didn't come and go with the application of the brakes meant that didn't quite make sense.  

Didn't take long to find it (funny how when it's not raining and windy you have more patience).

Nearside rear wheel if I spin it is silent and will keep spinning for several tens of seconds.  Offside on the other hand will stop after a couple of rotations, and you can hear something dragging.  Particularly when the wheel starts to move.  Not sure how well it comes across on camera.

 

While this sounds like it's a dragging brake, it isn't.  With the drum removed the hub itself behaves exactly the same, the issue there is with the wheel bearings.  Which kind of sucks as the inner bearing on this is a bit of a pig to deal with as the stub axle needs to be removed from the back of the hub.  Fair enough, except for the shock absorber and its carrier being in the way.

That grey plastic cap is covering the rear of the stub axle, and shows what needs to move (towards frame left) and how the shock absorber is right in the way.  Not particularly difficult, it's going to involve dismantling a lot more stuff than I'd really like.  I believe the "correct" way to do the job involves removing the whole semi trailing arm assembly from the car.  Which admittedly isn't a massive headache for me here given that I know both of the main mounting bolts move!  However I need to figure out how on earth to compress the spring safely...I've never had to play that game with leaf springs before.  Especially not ones arranged like this.  Okay, let's rephrase that...I need to figure out a way to compress the spring which doesn't involve extremely sketchy nonsense with bottle jacks and axle stands.

Guess it would be a good opportunity to clean up and protect the trailing arm(s) and to clean and grease the spring anyway as that definitely would benefit from being done.  If I can figure out how to de-tension it without killing myself anyway.  I emphatically dislike doing jobs like this, however know that getting a garage involved will take several weeks.

On the plus side, the rear brakes look to have had very recent attention, just like the front.

Didn't actually need to remove the hub nut to remove the drum I later realised. Just a grub screw.

At least it's such a light car it's a doddle to jack and is laid out on such a way that it's really easy to support safely when working underneath.

Guess I best go get a set of wheel bearings ordered then!  

What are the odds of winding up with two cars both needing wheel bearings at the same time?  Partner is just getting chucked at a garage though.

[TrabbieRonnie]

I'm struggling to remember exactly, but I had my rear arms off to weld on new 'spoons' (the forward mounting points)... I don't think there's any 'push' left in the spring once the wheels are off the ground.

Pretty sure I just unbolted the arms and took them off, there definitely wasn't any use of jacks or anything trying to compress the spring.

 

[Zelandeth]

8 hours ago, TrabbieRonnie said:

I'm struggling to remember exactly, but I had my rear arms off to weld on new 'spoons' (the forward mounting points)... I don't think there's any 'push' left in the spring once the wheels are off the ground.

Pretty sure I just unbolted the arms and took them off, there definitely wasn't any use of jacks or anything trying to compress the spring.

 

I did wonder how much spring would be left given how little weight is on there.  Should be able to undo the bolts carefully a little ways and see if there's any real tension on things.

Edit:

Looking at how everything is tied together, the limiting factor in terms of travel is the shock absorber.  So the easy solution most likely is simply to undo the top shock mounting and the jack the corner up - in theory then there should be enough travel available to totally decompress the spring.  Reassembly then simply (in theory) should just be the reverse process.  Get the trailing arm bolts in, locate the spring on its seat and the slowly lower the car down onto it.

At least that's my theory.  However it's half past five in the morning and I'm  only here because I can't sleep so not sure exactly how much I trust my reasoning right now!

[SiC]

12 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

On the plus side, the rear brakes look to have had very recent attention, just like the front.

That slit near the central nut, is that like it out of the factory? Or has someone taken an angle grinder to the nut in the past and went a bit too far?

[Zelandeth]

2 hours ago, SiC said:

That slit near the central nut, is that like it out of the factory? Or has someone taken an angle grinder to the nut in the past and went a bit too far?

That's stock.  That slot is where the locking washer for the hub nut locates.

[bobdisk]

22 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

That's stock.  That slot is where the locking washer for the hub nut locates.

How is it fitted? Looks too thin for that purpose. Pic please after its together !

[Zelandeth]

1 hour ago, bobdisk said:

How is it fitted? Looks too thin for that purpose. Pic please after its together !

Photo (and diagram of how the whole hub fits together) over here: https://www.ldm-tuning.de/en/artikel-995.htm

[Back_For_More]

From distant memory...... That seems a similar rear setup to the Spitfire. 

Once in the air and chassis supported you can easily remove shock, hub carrier etc... without issue. No deadly tensions involved iirc. 

[Mr Pastry]

Re. wheel bearings - if it is the same as the earlier models which I have worked on, you need a serious puller to get the hub off.

[bobdisk]

22 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

Photo (and diagram of how the whole hub fits together) over here: https://www.ldm-tuning.de/en/artikel-995.htm

Ah, I see it now !!  You put the washer on first, with the bent bit (!) down in the slot, Then put the nut on to the torque setting, Then bend the washer up against a flat to lock it. Simples!!                 BTW, the front suspension on the Daf 33 is much the same, with a transverse leaf spring.  Its rather like a McPherson strut, except the spring is a transverse leaf instead of a coil.

[Zelandeth]

22 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

Re. wheel bearings - if it is the same as the earlier models which I have worked on, you need a serious puller to get the hub off.

Noted, I look forward to the fun and games that no doubt entails in due course!

Today I continued my tradition of visiting Costco using the smallest vehicles I have available to me.

Not as small as the Invacar, but it was the smallest vehicle I saw anywhere in the car park by a comfortable margin!

[Zelandeth]

I don't suppose this is the correct puller for the hub is it?  It came with the car.  Thoroughly rusted up of course as it was in the boot.

No idea to be honest, doesn't look like it is related but figured I'd ask the question.

The bearing a day or so back rapidly degraded from the occasional slight noise to "horrible gronking noise with each rotation."  Meant to be going to Rustival this weekend.  Also was supposed to be going in for an MOT tomorrow.  Great!

The MOT isn't actually a huge issue as it's not out till the 14th, but I feel bad having to cancel at pretty short notice.  I like the guys there and really don't like messing them about, still I called to cancel as soon as I knew I wasn't going to make it.

I did get around to replacing the cracked nearside reflector from the stash of parts I've started to accumulate.  Doesn't look like this one has ever been fitted, was just a bit dusty from years in storage.

The Rover also gave me a good old runaround over the last couple of days.

Having successfully proved that my idea for the fuel return system worked I decided that as the weather was dry it was time to get it put together in a less shonky way.  I'd thrown it together using some 3/8" copper brake line originally as it was what I had to hand and I didn't have enough actual hose in stock. 

It was never intended to see the road like that though, it was just to see if it worked.  It was time to do it "properly" though.  

We picked up the return from the factory T on the carb feed line.

The original return line has been capped off for safety's sake. I don't think there's any chance of it suddenly starting to spill fuel back to the engine bay, but I just don't want to take the chance.

Hose clips obviously still had to be added here.

That bolt is only half threaded so there's a nice smooth area to seal to the hose, and the bit of hose is a snug fit on both the bolt and the nylon line.

The line follows the route of the factory fuel lines down the back of the engine bay.

Then follows the main bundle of pipework and cabling along the underside of the car.

Up into the car through the bung I'd found in the floor under the rear seat (with a suitable grommet to protect the hose).

Then joins the loom of cables and pipework that runs through into the boot through a grommet behind the backrest of the rear seat.

Then around the tank and onto our former vent port that's now our return spill port.

Couple of additional hose clips needed here in the photo.

What you can't actually see is that there's a piece of copper line inside there that runs right down into the tank - that rubber boot isn't actually involved in fuel handling, it's just providing a vapour seal.

This should have us most of the way towards having a working fuel system. Though the car was still running a bit lean it seemed (as it demonstrated to me a week or so back when I had the air cleaner off and blipped the throttle, resulting in a cough and then proper shotgun like report out of the left hand carb which left my ears ringing for about an hour). This didn't surprise me really as I know the original return line had a restriction in it to act as a crude pressure regulator. I have picked up a cheap regulator, though I don't have huge hopes for that (because...well...cheap parts). If it doesn't work I've an idea to make my own crude version using an adjustable clamp on the line.  Doesn't really make sense paying good money for a quality regulator though, especially as I don't imagine the actual pressure here is all that critical either, we just need enough of a restriction to ensure that the carb bowls fill properly.

I have however ensured it's installed in the boot rather than the engine bay just in case it does leak. Yes, because I trust it about as far as I can throw it.

Guess what happened after I'd been driving around for about 20 minutes? The engine cut out and wouldn't restart. Guess why...no fuel being delivered.  I called the car some really unpleasant things about then.  Albeit slightly tempered by the fact that it died on the drive this time rather than at a junction.

Initial suspicion fell on that cheap regulator...which when removed revealed no fuel coming down the return line. Cue much poking and prodding and swearing at everything I'd done yesterday as I assumed I must have crimped a line or something somewhere.

That fuel pump, which I bought from a marque specialist...yep, it's dead. Well it's kind of dead...it pumps just fine until you present it with anything resembling a pressure head to pump against, at which point it stops pumping until it's power cycled an indeterminate number of times. It has always been horrifically noisy so I'm not hugely surprised, but it's disappointing as it wasn't cheap.

Tried to switch over to the spare Hardi pump I've been kindly provided with by a reader of my blogs. That apparently needs a service.  More fuel came peeing out from around failed seals on that under gravity than I was getting out of the previous pump outlet when it was running. Guess I'll need to order a service kit for that then.  I don't begrudge the pump that, it's entirely likely as old as I am and I really ought to have just serviced it when it landed here.  

For now I've borrowed TPA's pump again as I know that works properly.

Sure enough, turning the dial on the regulator now does alter the speed at which the pump clicks, so we are correctly modulating the fuel return flow.  

Haven't had the opportunity to investigate whether this has improved things though as today I have been busy all day.

Will it actually work for more than 20 minutes now?  I guess we'll find out sometime in the next few days.

I'll need to get stuck into the wheel bearing job on the Trabant I guess and see if I can get it ready for the weekend.  Have to admit being slightly apprehensive given that this isn't a job I've done on this car before.  Especially not being sure how much of a war to expect getting things apart or any oddball tools I may need.  

If I run into a brick wall which means we're not ready by Saturday I guess I'll just be having to attend Rustival as a spectator.  I really can't see me trusting the Rover on that run given the track record of that car so far!  TPA hasn't had her pre-season inspection and shakedown run yet so I'd rather not take her - it's not a massive trek for the car, but further than I'd really like to be going on the first drive of the year.

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, Zelandeth said:

TPA hasn't had her pre-season inspection and shakedown run yet so I'd rather not take her - it's not a massive trek for the car, but further than I'd really like to be going on the first drive of the year.

awww, sadly AFAIK there are no Invalid vehicles of any kind booked into rustival, which I think is a shame in itself, I mean TWC pretty much kick-started @dollywobbler's Channel, and yet theres nary an Invacar present at his own event

so if the trabant could not make it, I was hoping TPA might be able to  

 

 

 

[Mr Pastry]

7 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

I don't suppose this is the correct puller for the hub is it?  It came with the car.  Thoroughly rusted up of course as it was in the boot.

That looks to me like the puller for the earlier type of hub which has an integral brake drum.  Not sure what you need for yours - I assume something that fits on the wheel studs - the earlier hub/drum  wasn't strong enough to take a pull on the studs and the puller located in a groove around the hub centre - so I'd suggest a bit more research.   I am not a Trabant expert btw - I have worked on them, but (unlike everyone else apparently) think they are best avoided.

 

[Zelandeth]

Well evidently I need a better puller than the one I just snapped in half!

Granted, I think it cost me something like £10 about 20 years ago so I can't complain too much!

[Morris 63]

I do enjoy your tales of tinkering, along with the segues into old computers & electrics now & then.

Best of luck with the the bearing - and sorry to hear about the puller!

Yours is one of the threads I've always followed on here; for some reason your photos don't show for me on RR, but are fine here. Likely some weirdness with the work VPN I'm on.