Cars you didn't know existed until very recently.

[MiniMinorMk3]

8 seconds in to this video and I spotted something I have not seen before. The car can be seen again at about 57 seconds.

So I checked the entry list for the event and it turns out it is an Anadol STC-16 (Sports Turkish Car 1600). It is powered by a cross-flow Ford 1600.

[Aston Martin]

V drive 

 

https://www.blueovaltrucks.com/tech-articles/the_vemco_v-drive_system/

[barrett]

The v-drive system is actually pretty tried and tested, despite how crazy it looks. One of the first workable 4wd systems  for road cars is from the very early 1920s, invented by a chap called Alexander Holle. this used a diff/transfer case mounted centrally in the chassis, with four equal-length propshafts emerging, one to each wheel. The idea actually goes back even further as there were commercial chassis with a similar arrangement as early as 1912. Imagine the effort involved in making that all work before CV joints! Alfa Romeo used a v-drive system in the 1932 Tipo B racer (rwd only). Here's Holle's prototype under test in England - you can see the props

On the subject of weird transmission/drive systems, if anyone can tell me WTF is going on here I'd appreciate it. I've been looking at this photo for a couple of years (not continuously, granted) and I still don't know what the car is, although it must be well-known. Answers on a postcard please.

[High Jetter]

5 minutes ago, barrett said:

Answers on a postcard please.

Any moar info? Looks...different.

[somewhatfoolish]

Odd one. The levers top centre suggest some kind of transmission with a gear shift, which given the vast bulk of the casing seems plausible(given the fat cigar shape and absence of anything like a conventional clutch housing suggests an epicyclic). Why would you have two shafts though? The only thing that springs to mind is that two shafts allow them to be thinner giving more chassis/ground clearance, especially if geared up to spin faster, accommodating shitty early 20th century materials tech.

[barrett]

It's very, very strange. The more you look at the less sense it makes. I've never heard of a car with twin parallel props - if the drive is coming from a single gearbox or trnasfer case, it doesn't make any sense to have them running in parallel instead of a v-pattern. Given the very weedy bore of the exhaust, I wonder if it's a small-engined thing, in which case... could it have friction-disc drive from the engine, with separate discs for forward and reverse? Each one connected to a prop... Then again, it looks like it's carrying a lot of weight given the size of those quarter-elliptics. Are the brakes inboard, too? Looks like they operate on the axle rather than the wheels.

[RayMK]

The suspension seems to have a pivot point which would make it a cantilever set-up with maybe a pair of quarter elliptic lower springs to give approximate parallelogram geometry i.e. no rotation of that bloody great unsprung mass of transaxle.  It's difficult to make out some of the details except that the tyres are Michelin.  Perhaps it's a French speed record car for the less than 1.5litre class which uses two small engines mounted side by side (hence two skinny propshafts) and, being French, each wheel has its own epicyclic gear train possibly operated by a single lever to ensure each side is at least in the same gear.  No diff required because the puny engines are independently driving their own wheel and will be forced to each run at different RPM on corners.  

In other words, I'm fascinated but have no idea.

[somewhatfoolish]

Aren't the top springs semi-elliptic? The attachment at the front is off the edge, the central mount appears to be a pivot stud from the ends of that crossmember and the axle attachment something like @RayMK says, the springs doubling as sort-of trailing arms. How the lower springs are attached at the front isn't clear at all, but it must be pretty stout to resist the cantilever loads. The brakes certainly aren't integrated with the hub but they are outside of the springs; given the heavyweight nature of the axle could the normal set-up have been a wider solid tyre or even double wheels? When did the first double pneumatic arrangement appear in use outside of a few homebrew hillclimb cars?

[bunglebus]

Where did the picture come from? It's in a slightly odd setting with the armchair, wooden post and drape behind the chassis, so presumably on display rather than in a workshop

[somewhatfoolish]

6 minutes ago, bunglebus said:

Where did the picture come from? It's in a slightly odd setting with the armchair, wooden post and drape behind the chassis, so presumably on display rather than in a workshop

This is the rare appearance of the predecessor to the Macpherson Strut; the Macpherson Newel Post.

[Sham]

It looks a lot like a differential steering system and the levers would therfore be controlling brake bands - but I have no idea what the car or truck is.

[barrett]

1 hour ago, bunglebus said:

Where did the picture come from? It's in a slightly odd setting with the armchair, wooden post and drape behind the chassis, so presumably on display rather than in a workshop

It's the 1922 Paris Motor Show, so it'll be listed somewhere. None of my French Vintage car expert friends can ID it though.

[RayMK]

7 hours ago, somewhatfoolish said:

Aren't the top springs semi-elliptic? The attachment at the front is off the edge, the central mount appears to be a pivot stud from the ends of that crossmember and the axle attachment something like @RayMK says, the springs doubling as sort-of trailing arms. How the lower springs are attached at the front isn't clear at all, but it must be pretty stout to resist the cantilever loads. The brakes certainly aren't integrated with the hub but they are outside of the springs; given the heavyweight nature of the axle could the normal set-up have been a wider solid tyre or even double wheels? When did the first double pneumatic arrangement appear in use outside of a few homebrew hillclimb cars?

Cantilever leaf springs are basically semi-elliptic springs with the axle attached at one end, a pivoted mid point anchored to the chassis and the other end also attached to the chassis via a shackle or slider.  Another variation was used on the MK2 Jaguar with the mid pivot more of a rubber mounting and making the set-up more akin to a quarter elliptic as the chassis mounted end was really just a means of lateral location with better load spreading than a typical quarter elliptic.  Quite a few early cars had cantilever leaf springs but none of the examples I knew about or could find had anything resembling the set-up and huge lump on the rear axle of the subject chassis which also has quarter elliptic lower 'trailing arms.'  

I did initially wonder whether the axle lump was an early electric drive but the exhaust and lack of heavy power cables quickly kicked that train of thought out unless those 'propshafts' are cable conduits for an early hybrid.  Didn't Jay Leno feature/own a slightly later hybrid (1930s?)?  

Some sort of special purpose differential steering device as per @Sham with maybe a freely castoring other end to the vehicle also crossed my mind but it seemed far too devious compared with conventional steering, although Tata did build a prototype of their Pixel city car a few years ago which used similar principles for parking manoeuvrability.

Has anyone tried image matching using recent software?  I tried some free software a few months back but found it to be fairly useless and ran out of patience.  Is there a listing anywhere of the 1922 Paris Show exhibitors that @barrettmentioned?  A good* way to spend a few hours when the forum falls over in the afternoon perhaps?

[High Jetter]

On 6/28/2023 at 11:53 PM, barrett said:

On the subject of weird transmission/drive systems, if anyone can tell me WTF is going on here I'd appreciate it. I've been looking at this photo for a couple of years (not continuously, granted) and I still don't know what the car is, although it must be well-known. Answers on a postcard please.

I wondered if it's some form on transaxle/gearbox combo and that one shaft is an input from an engine and t'other an output to the front

22 hours ago, RayMK said:

Has anyone tried image matching using recent software?  I tried some free software a few months back but found it to be fairly useless and ran out of patience.  Is there a listing anywhere of the 1922 Paris Show exhibitors that @barrettmentioned?  A good* way to spend a few hours when the forum falls over in the afternoon perhaps?

During the downtime yesterday I did have a poke about but only came up with the same image, here: https://www.motorsportimages.com/photo/1018896245-paris-motor-show/1018896245/?event_id=272223&year=1922&p=3

Tineye couldn't even find that, for some reason.

 

[RayMK]

The Jay Leno car I mentioned was an Owen Magnetic from 1916.  An interesting concept which has been reinvented much more recently and which is or was quite common in railway locomotives, but it shares no visual or mechanical similarities with the @barrettmystery chassis.

[bunglebus]

A new one on me

[barrett]

On 6/30/2023 at 12:44 PM, RayMK said:

 Is there a listing anywhere of the 1922 Paris Show exhibitors that @barrettmentioned?  A good* way to spend a few hours when the forum falls over in the afternoon perhaps?

My friend just sent me this, a plan of all the exhibitors form the '22 Salon. To be honest, it doesn't help me much as the specification doesn't seem to match cars from any of these manufacturers (that I'm aware of)...

[bunglebus]

VW Worker, a Brazilian mashup of LT cab and Dodge chassis

[quicksilver]

In a similar vein, the Kenworth K130. No idea how Kenworth ended up using a VW cab.

[chaseracer]

2 hours ago, quicksilver said:

No idea how Kenworth ended up using a VW cab.

Cheap and available?  Probably from Brazil!

[TheOtherStu]

Today, I saw a Volkswagen Taro. I dunno why, but I've seen other Toyota Hilux rebrands, but don't remember this one.

It was much sheddier than this picture and an H reg, but like this:

Frankly, it was shit. Had loads of dents, loads of rust and a couple of very dodgy looking gents driving it.
A quick look did suggest that it had MOT, Tax and Insurance!

[DavieW]

On 6/25/2023 at 4:24 PM, MiniMinorMk3 said:

 

So I checked the entry list for the event and it turns out it is an Anadol STC-16 (Sports Turkish Car 1600). It is powered by a cross-flow Ford 1600.

I like that. 

[artdjones]

18 hours ago, quicksilver said:

In a similar vein, the Kenworth K130. No idea how Kenworth ended up using a VW cab.

It was developed from a MAN model. MAN collaborated with VW and VWs part of the collaboration included the LT cab.

 

[EyesWeldedShut]

On 7/3/2023 at 9:37 PM, barrett said:

My friend just sent me this, a plan of all the exhibitors form the '22 Salon. To be honest, it doesn't help me much as the specification doesn't seem to match cars from any of these manufacturers (that I'm aware of)...

Best I could find was the image below - it's got the wooden post in it (and that's about all).
there are some lovely pictures  of the salon at http://www.corre-lalicorne.com/salon de automobile.html (scroll down past the broken plugin) and the site, albeit a bit fragmented, holds some gems. 

[quicksilver]

5 hours ago, artdjones said:

It was developed from a MAN model. MAN collaborated with VW and VWs part of the collaboration included the LT cab.

 

I know about the MAN-VW G90 that used the LT cab but wasn't aware there was any connection with Kenworth. WIkipedia confirms it was a development of the G90 and initially built in Brazil like so many other odd things. Its successors used the DAF 45/LF cab, which makes sense as both are part of Paccar, so they look strangely familiar yet unfamiliar to British eyes.

[quicksilver]

Didn't have a clue what this was when it drove past.

It's an Armstrong-Siddeley Sapphire 234 converted into a drophead, supposedly as a replica of a factory prototype. I don't think I've ever even seen one of the saloons it's based on.

[somewhatfoolish]

TBH the saloon isn't a great looker from behind, I can understand why someone with the money to pay for a conversion or the ability to DIY might do so.

[artdjones]

1 hour ago, somewhatfoolish said:

TBH the saloon isn't a great looker from behind, I can understand why someone with the money to pay for a conversion or the ability to DIY might do so.

A 236 with steel wheels is a bit of a strange car. It has the straight 6 from the previous range, and isn't very fast. 

The 234 uses a 4cylinder version of the powerful 3½ litre Sapphire engine, and is more powerful than the six, making a decent sports saloon. It still has the weird rear aspect, but wire wheels and a decent colour lighten the appearance.

[Remspoor]

Ther have been severla posts about the Spanish Brand Santana.

Living in Spain for way too long I have never seen or heard about a Santana Stella. A vehicle without permission (that is a lie as you do need a drivers licence to use one)

Not even wiki writes about the car. An image. I give the link to the Spanish version as it covers more https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santana_Motor

 

So details of production numbers is impossible to find. All I can find is a number that are for sale.

https://es.wallapop.com/item/santana-stella-2000-828915544

https://es.wallapop.com/item/coche-santana-stella-111538425

[quicksilver]

3 hours ago, artdjones said:

A 236 with steel wheels is a bit of a strange car. It has the straight 6 from the previous range, and isn't very fast. 

The 234 uses a 4cylinder version of the powerful 3½ litre Sapphire engine, and is more powerful than the six, making a decent sports saloon. It still has the weird rear aspect, but wire wheels and a decent colour lighten the appearance.

The 234/236 are a weird combination. Two different engines of almost the same capacity, of which the four-cylinder was more powerful, faster, cheaper and more economical than the six.