Daves Panda. minor fettling

[michael1703]

Another thing.... If you can write down your settings by screwing the mixture screw in and counting the turns in to fully seated and write them down

 

You could take the screw out and check the 'o' ring on the mixture screw hasn't cracked up

 

I give mixture screw 'o' rings a dab of red rubber grease

[hauserplenty]

If after setting the timing, it still won't run right, you're looking at rebuilding the carb. If you can't get the timing set correctly, the timing belt/chain would be the next place to look.

 

Also: clogged fuel lines/filter/debris in tank/defective or clogged fuel pump etc?

 

Tighten carb and set timing. Go from there. It will save a lot of wheelspin.

[dave21478]

I havent been here for a while, so how about an update? last month I was crying like a little bitch over the carb and this month.....no change.

 

Here is an artists rendition of me with a carb.....

 

I just....I dunno. Im not totally retarded, I get the concept and principals of them, but can never, ever get them to work.

 

I took it to bits and inside I found something wierd. It looked kinda like cat shit.  I pulled a few lumps out and let it dry off. It was a fibrous, chitnious series of lumps and dissection showed it was the nest of some kind of insects which had turned to petrol soup inside. Huh. I guess they had entered the carb and set up home while the engine sat at the farm last year.

With that gone, everything cleaned out, new gaskets cut from proper gasket paper it went back together. Some fucking about revealed the autochoke seemed to kinda work so I set that as best I could. Running the choke unit under a hot tap caused the coil the move so I marked its position. I needed to cool it right down so threw the carb in the freezer for 15 minutes, causing all my food to stink of petrol in the process, and marked the coils cold position. I then put it back together and it seems to work, but its not cold enough here for it to go to the full cold start position for testing that. 

It seemed to run better.

Next up - another windscreen. I went back to the local breakers where there are a dozen pandas but only three had screens left and as suspected I got the last decent one last time. One had a bullseye right in the middle, one had a crack in the corner and one had terrible scratch marks caused by a worn wiperblade so I sacked it off and went elsewhere. The only other places nearby are big "dismantler and recycler " places where you arent allowed in the yard. First place.....No mate, we dont sell windscreens. Second place....Had a look, they are all fucked. And so on it went. I ended up driving to Beziers where there is a massive modern breakers that still allows you in the yard where I found 8 Pandas. I picked the newest, lowest mileage one, all neatly detailed on stock control stickers on the cars, and cut out a perfectly mint screen. Back home I slammed it in with no trouble.

Time for Controle Technique. My nearest CT test centre thats not run by a pirate is 40 minutes away so I chugged down in the longest run I have given the Panda. It ran ok, but had a hesitation when accelerating and seemed to misfire slightly.  On the up-side, it rides perfectly....Its all 100% new suspension components, so I would bloody well hope so too.

On the test it failed straight out the gate with CO emissions  over double their limit. Fucking CUNT. It also decided that idling was beneath it so needed to be held at a high tickover to prevent it stalling for the rest of the test. Failed again on a wonky headlight beam pattern which is due to a reflector breaking up that I never noticed. It required a two-handed, gritted teeth yank on the handbrake to get it to scrape the pass.

Quite despondant, I chugged home and the drive got worse and worse as I progressed until  about half way there it would die at anything less than full throttle. That was a fun* drive home. Under the bonnet it seems kinda smokey around the back of the engine so I assume a leaking manifold gasket or problem with the downpipe.

And thats where its at. I shoved it back in the garage to think about the error of its ways and havent touched it since. The CT has a two month grace period where it can still be used on the road (lol, nope!) and needs the retest on the fails only. After two month it will need a full test.

Its weird - This was a perfect repeat of the last carb fed car I restored,  the green Mini van...ran ok down to the CT centre, flunked the emissions and shat out on the way home. For that I found a whole carb in the breakers that I banged on and that sorted it. I will see if there is a viable carb for the Panda at the scrappy next time I have the free time to go there. Being a pre-FIRE engine, there are less to choose from, but iirc there are a couple of mkIs and Marbellas in the local yard so I might be lucky. There was definitely none in the big yard at Beziers.

Even with a CT fail, you can still do the ownership paperwork (its just used as an ID check really to prevent chassis number funnybusiness) so I sat in the fecking Prefecture in town for two hours and paid 140 euros to register it in my name. Brilliant.

[Sigmund Fraud]

Time to dig out the colortune, I reckon.

 

It sounds as if the Panda is just an afternoon's work away from a CT ! Result !

[Parky]

It's running too rich by the sounds of it, nothing a proper carb tune can't sort. They are fussy buggers!

[plasticvandan]

Does the old su carb trick oif winding the mixture in to pass the test then winding it back out to go home not work on pandas?

[dave21478]

So I found what appears to be a mixture screw on the side of the carb, but it wont turn more than a quarter turn either way. Looking at it closely, the housing is all distorted out of shape around it, so I reckon it might be bent and/or properly buggered.

 

With the afternoon off and it not raining horizontally for a change, I flung some tools in an ice cream tub and went to the local (20+minutes drive) scrapyard. Didnt even have to venture into the park, the dude reckoned he had one on the shelf somewhere. He led me along the racks to the Fiat section and after a minute of rummaging pulled out a blob of cruddy old engine filth with "panda 4x4" scrawled on the side with that yellow paint pen they all use.

60 eurocoins was a little stronger than I had hoped for, but what was the alternative? I ponied up and trundled home.

Never even cleaned it.....no point expending effort and time if it doesnt fix the problem so I just blew the dust off with the compressor and wanged it onto the engine.

 

After a bit of cranking to fill the float bowl, the bastard thing only fired right up and ran literally perfectly. No hunting, no chugging, no misfiring, a nice smooth idle and it revs cleanly. 

 

On the down-side the exhaust downpipe is split. It looks like there isnt enough flex in the exhaust rubbers to accomodate engine movement so I have ordered one of these universal flexi joins which I will weld into place to allow a bit of flex.

Did I remember to get another headlight while I was at the scrapyard? Of course not. I am too much of a bellend to concentrate on more than one thing at once, so thats going to need another trip back sometime and then I can hopefully get the CT retest passed.

[oldcars]

Great news, might be able to fix and flog the other one.

[dollywobbler]

This is definitely good news.

[mouseflakes]

This is good news. Good that you stuck with it.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Well done dave!!!!! Carbs are WANK. You still hear plenty of bearded mentals at car shows lamenting the death of the carburettor but I think ecu-controlled fuel & ignition are the best invention in the history of the car, they are the difference between a usable everyday transport system and a spluttering heap that you have to coax from one week to the next with regular underbonnet interventions.

[dollywobbler]

Well done dave!!!!! Carbs are WANK. You still hear plenty of bearded mentals at car shows lamenting the death of the carburettor but I think ecu-controlled fuel & ignition are the best invention in the history of the car, they are the difference between a usable everyday transport system and a spluttering heap that you have to coax from one week to the next with regular underbonnet interventions.

 

There are good and bad carbs, just as there are good and bad fuel injection systems. It seriously annoys me that the carburettor on my 2CV, which was designed in the 1970s (twin choke HARDCORE) is exceedingly reliable, yet the shitty ones they fitted to BXs in the 1980s tend to be utter shit. 

 

I do agree that better ignitions systems make a difference though. Transistorised ignition is at least eleventy billion times better than points and condenser. Mind you, I think they later ballsed things up moving to coil packs. 

[billyboy406v6]

Great progress, keep going !!!!!!!!!!!!! Get that CT ticket and flog the bugger ?

[Felly Magic]

Well played Davenumbers, fingers crossed this is totally sorted, and hopefully you will get the CT on it soon

[Pillock]

That's good news - I agree carbs are the work of the devil, I always feel like some sort of fuggin' surgeon when I fiddle with them. Wind this screw in, turn that, worry about bits of brass falling in, listen for noises, turn that tiny screw that looks like it came out of a pair of glasses 0.05 degrees to the west.

 

(A really bad surgeon who kills everyone he works on, since I can't remember a carb ever working better after my intervention)

 

And then, hilariously, a performance upgrade is to fit two of the bastards. Double trouble, if you can't get one going right then you're going to have shit all luck with two. I was once told by a mechanic mate how to set up twin carbs on a Beetle using a length of hose held to my ear listening for noises and immediately started looking up megasquirt prices. "The carbs, they're whispering to me..... they're telling me...... that...... they're fucked"

[Matt]

And then, hilariously, a performance upgrade is to fit two of the bastards. Double trouble, if you can't get one going right then you're going to have shit all luck with two.

 

Doesn't stop some people putting four bike carbs on some cars!

[oldcars]

I am always amazed that turning a screw a hairs width can make the difference from being spot on or a bag of shit.

[billyboy406v6]

The thing with old tech like carbs is we notice an FTP straight away, but crap suspension, handling, sound deadening etc are easily ignored as we proceed down the road ?

[dave21478]

This thing was always a hassle to start....it would grind over for ages and after 3 or 4 attempts would fire once... this was the clue that starting was imminent and the next turn it would start up and run for 5 seconds then cut out, then restart and idle ok.

This was due to the automatic choke being dogshit. I have two of them, and they are as bad as each other.

Its a spiral bi-metallic strip that should expand and contract with temperature changes and should move a lever on the carburetor accordingly. Both seem to have not enough travel though and while they are easy to adjust, without the proper range of movement its pointless....either when cold it would give full choke but when warmed up not open it fully, leaving it running rich and idling at 2000rpm, or fully open when hot but not closing fully when cold giving bad starting.

 

I decided to sack it off and fit a manual choke, which proved to be a significantly bigger job than planned....Yeah, just make a wee plate that bolts to the carb and fix the cable to the lever......lol, what a twat of a job.

Firstly, I bought a manual choke cable from Amazon, which wasnt great quality, the main problem being that it didnt lock in any position. I solved this by slightly crushing the outer tube to give a bit of resistance to the inner part so it would stay where I left it.

I wanted it to bolt on in place of the auto choke and allow it to go back to standard if it didnt work so I made this adaptor plate....

Which proved to be a massive headache, as my plan of fixing the cable direct to the choke lever meant there would be about 5mm of travel for the choke knob and there was probably that much slop in the cable so it just wasnt working. I had to make a lever that gave enough travel to fully open and close the choke flap and give a reasonable length of travel at the knob end [insert joke here].

 

Here it is in place....

 

And a wee vid of it in action....

 

Much better.

 

 

[Stanky]

impressive engineering Mr Numbers, and nice to see you back posting interesting and informative material

[dollywobbler]

That's a neat way to return. Can't even call that bodging really! Proper engineering.

[320touring]

Just in time for me to pick your brains re an old Morris;)

 

Top work and welcome back!

[SiC]

Good to see you back.

 

I've fixed your video to make it possible to stare at it for hours on end.

[dave21478]

Following the purchase, collection and dismantling of the cinquecento as written here....

http://autoshite.com/topic/30772-daves-cinquecento-brutally-raped/

 

I thought I better make a start at putting it into the Panda, so i cleared a space in the garage and the Panda assumed the position....

 

I dismantled the exhaust, driveshafts, propshaft and lower suspension arms then dropped complete engine and box out the bottom, which went quickly and easily - its not seen much action since it was put together, so no problems were encountered.

 

And thats about all I did. I will need to order up a few bits n bobs before putting the new motor in, so its likely to be a while before anything else gets done.

 

In the meantime I wanted to have a peek at the gearbox. Ever since I built the Panda up it has made a rapid clunking noise in reverse coming from the gearbox. It only does it in reverse, both under power and in gear with clutch down and freely rolling - everything else has been eliminated and my thought process led to an internal gearbox fault. Long term readers may remember I obtained this car as a bare shell and pile of bits from my idiot brother in law who literally bought it, drove it back to the farm and took it to bits. He couldnt remember if it did this clunking then, but that was years ago now, and I dont see how anything I have done could have damaged the box.

 

With the box off and on the floor, if I select reverse and turn the input shaft by hand there is a definite faint clunk from inside the box....Im thinking a tooth is chipped on one of the reverse gears.

 Replacement box? dunno....will it get worse? dunno....do i do a lot of high speed reversing and up steep hills? not really, no.....could i just live with it? possibly.

Then I wondered about the cinquecento box....obviously its different in that it doesnt have the rear output for the propshaft, but it looks very similar otherwise. I decided to open it up and see whats what as it would be getting scrapped anyway. I know little about gearboxes - especially front wheel drive stuff, so it would be a learning experience and possibly I could rob some parts from it to repair the Panda box.

 

Started off in the usual manner...

 

And after a brief period of time....

bolts and levers and things...

 

boingy things and splined bit....

 

I know roughly where they came from....

 

cogs n shit....

 

oh my....

 

Yeah, thats...nah, yeah, nah thats fucked mate. Well it certainly is now anyway.

 

In the last pic, near the bottom of the gear clusters is a pair of straight-cut cogs, where all the others are helicoidal. These are the reverse gears and they dont actually mesh together...cant be seen in the photo but there is a gap of about 10mm. Behind them and lower down is a third straight-cut gear. When reverse is selected this is lifted up and acts as an idler gear between the two others - this is what reverses the direction of drive. I would postulate that one of these three is damaged inside the pandas box. 

Sure - I could get these out and separated from the clusters, but would they be the same as the Panda parts? fucked if I know and fucked if i know how to find out, and more importantly, could I do this all again with the Pandas box and get it back together without any boingy bits and stuff left over? not sure, tbqh.

 

Probably best just leave it well alone, eh?

 

 

[Ian_Fearn]

Is there much Panda action in France? I hardly use my Panda, was hoping to actually get to use it to see some other Pandas this year. 

[Stanky]

That looks terrifyingly complex! nice write up and thanks for sharing, just so I don't have to dismantle a gearbox myself to discover how many teeth and boingy things one contains. Am i right in thinking that in neutral the input shaft is still whizzing around milimeters from the gears of the output shaft, so even slight hamfistedness with putting a gearbox back toether could easily result in the loss of neutral?

[Asimo]

I can smell that gear-oil from here.......

 

My Fiat 500ish Autobianchi had the broken tooth problem - on reverse and 1st gear, first using the same straight cut gears as reverse. No syncromesh.

 

I helped Dad do a gearbox rebuild on Mum's Anglia van.

1st, 2nd, BANG. Had to remove the propshaft to tow the bastard back. It never moved again.

 

Gearbox work is for the brave and skilled I reckon.

[dave21478]

From what I gather and I stand to be corrected by more knowledgeable types, the forward gears are permanantly meshed at all times, but free to spin on the shaft - its the selector forks that slide different splined sections into contact to lock one of the gears to the shaft giving drive, the others just merrily spinning but not doing anything.

[dave21478]

No gear oil stench (which I hate), these run normal engine oil in the boxes.

[dave21478]

Is there much Panda action in France? I hardly use my Panda, was hoping to actually get to use it to see some other Pandas this year. 

 

Dunno - I do my best to stay away from single-marque clubs.

 

They are rare enough on the roads but more common in the mountains and ski resort areas. There is a "raid" by some clubs to Morocco most years, linking up with the Spanish club iirc.