project 1951 Lanchester LD10 - Rear Corner Inspection

[Richard_FM]

13 hours ago, vulgalour said:

I don't think they could even if they wanted to.  Lanchester sits sort of in the Rover segment with a lean more towards quality materials and comfort.  It's not the sort of company you'd go to for a commercial vehicle, especially when there were so many other companies out there offering just that.  For Lanchester too, I suspect they simply didn't have the resources to create something like that.  The picture of the company post war, like many, was one of a company just trying to get back on its feet again.  Putting the resources into creating estate cars for the a market that would likely see the Lanchester as out of their price bracket wouldn't have made any sense either, if you could afford a Lanchester you wouldn't be worried about chopping windows into a new van you'd just bought.

I reckon they probably did the best they could in the market they were in and did well to survive as long as they did independantly, being bought by Daimler was probably the best outcome they could have realistically hoped for.

You're probably right, but I've heard of Alvises being fitted with estate bodywork as a workaround to the one I mentioned about.

Lanchesters made some quirky designs before being bought up by BSA & gradually sharing components with the Daimler range.

[High Jetter]

17 hours ago, DSdriver said:

Shameless self promotion

I have stocks of 2BA and 4BA stainless steel screws and nuts. Not sure if these were used by the motor industry or were just a marine industry thing.

Itemised on my website here if anyone is interested http://www.hadlowmarine.com/Pages/Machinescrews.html (at the bottom of the page)

Discounts to Shiters obvs.

BA stuff was widely used in many industries in the past but rarely now. Always useful to know of stockists for rarer things though.

[watkindj]

On 4/4/2023 at 9:35 AM, vulgalour said:

I don't think they could even if they wanted to.  Lanchester sits sort of in the Rover segment with a lean more towards quality materials and comfort.  It's not the sort of company you'd go to for a commercial vehicle, especially when there were so many other companies out there offering just that.  For Lanchester too, I suspect they simply didn't have the resources to create something like that.  The picture of the company post war, like many, was one of a company just trying to get back on its feet again.  Putting the resources into creating estate cars for the a market that would likely see the Lanchester as out of their price bracket wouldn't have made any sense either, if you could afford a Lanchester you wouldn't be worried about chopping windows into a new van you'd just bought.

I reckon they probably did the best they could in the market they were in and did well to survive as long as they did independantly, being bought by Daimler was probably the best outcome they could have realistically hoped for.

Lanchester did not body the LD10 they were built by multiple firms mainly Briggs and Barker but also E. D. Abbott of Farnham.  Hooper & Co of London,  Mumford’s, Abbey Garage, Plymouth.  Avon Coachworks of Warwick,   B.S.A.  ,  H. J. Mulliner & Co.Bedford Park, Chiswick, West London and  Wentworth.

The Hooper van was specially commissioned for what was a small garage near me and has just returned to the same family now owned by the son of its original commissioner

As for getting around the Tax as someone else mentioned with Utility Variants the answer is yes one is known and was bodied by Mumfords of Plymouth

[watkindj]

On 4/2/2023 at 8:28 PM, Dobloseven said:

Loving this thread. They are lovely little cars. The cars from long gone makers, doomed to fail, that sold in tiny numbers, to me are so fascinating. Don't know if I've mentioned it, before, but there's a lovely chap on the next road to us, who's rebuilding a LD10 with the Barker body in his garage. He's commited a sin in my eyes of painting it white. Was black, but it's in safe hands and it's his to do as he likes with. He's also got a pretty well immaculate LA10, and a "rat look" Roadrider he keeps somewhere else. He took the LA 10 to Holland, I believe, a few years ago with the Daimler and Lanchester Club. 

wouldbe very interested to learn more about the "white" one

[vulgalour]

If anyone wants to know anything Lanchester, @watkindj is the person to speak to.  They've probably forgotten more about Lanchesters than Pat and I combined have learned so far.

[High Jetter]

I hope he doesn't curse you for the introduction to the madhouse! Welcome, @watkindj

[vulgalour]

As we sort through things, we look at them a bit more properly.  Today it was the engine.  We don't know anything about it and had assumed it was from, or destined for, the donor car.  We'd already clocked that the rocker cover wasn't cast aluminium like other LD10s we've seen and was instead pressed steel and the big wooden crate on the back seat that had a lot of loose engine bits in it looks about the right size for the engine that was scattered throughout the donor.

This is the tag that's on the side of the rocker cover.

1958 is several years after Lanchester ceased production.  The rocker cover doesn't look the same design as a Conquest, which is the LD10's equivalent in '58 as I understand it, it looks correct for an LD10 but it's in the wrong material.  Bit of an odd one this, I'm not really sure what to make of the engine we've got here.

[Anglevan]

That looks like a military tag, I have a share in a  Daimler Ferret and that has the same plate riveted to the rocker cover and same colour paint. Our history says the engine was rebuilt during service and the plate matches our history. 

[High Jetter]

Conquest was bigger tho? We need pics of the Ferret!

[watkindj]

6 hours ago, vulgalour said:

As we sort through things, we look at them a bit more properly.  Today it was the engine.  We don't know anything about it and had assumed it was from, or destined for, the donor car.  We'd already clocked that the rocker cover wasn't cast aluminium like other LD10s we've seen and was instead pressed steel and the big wooden crate on the back seat that had a lot of loose engine bits in it looks about the right size for the engine that was scattered throughout the donor.

This is the tag that's on the side of the rocker cover.

1958 is several years after Lanchester ceased production.  The rocker cover doesn't look the same design as a Conquest, which is the LD10's equivalent in '58 as I understand it, it looks correct for an LD10 but it's in the wrong material.  Bit of an odd one this, I'm not really sure what to make of the engine we've got here.

Is just a standard plate when an engine has undergone rebuild in house so that next time they are aware of its contents pistons bearing etc sizes

[somewhatfoolish]

Curious mix of fasteners, round head screws, a pop rivet and what looks like a hammer drive rivet.

[vulgalour]

10 hours ago, High Jetter said:

Conquest was bigger tho? We need pics of the Ferret!

True... I mean the Conquest being the LD10 equivalent like how it slotted into Daimler's range at the time, I don't know that they had a smaller saloon car available at the time.

[Rocket88]

Seems reasonably priced…

[watkindj]

when stripping down its worth keeping

the steering column and box,

front hubs and king pins ,

shock absorbers,

rear axle as half shafts are difficult to replace should you snap one which is easy to do if the gearbox has fierce takeup

also the steering and idler and front brake compensator

[vulgalour]

Duly noted, and all on the list for keeping back.

Let's go back in time a little bit to when the stator tube was rewired.  We did test this and it does work, I just managed to lose the recording of us doing that so you'll have to take my word for it.

 

[vulgalour]

I've been gradually feeding rusty things through the oxalic solution and being amazed at the results.  Literally you just leave stuff in a bucket of oxalic acid solution for 24-48 hours, rinse off in plain water sometimes giving it a bit of a scrub with a suitable stiffness brush, and all the work is done for you.

It's also highlighted just how minor a lot of that very visible rust is on some components.  The water pump, for instance, is very restorable and needs little more than new bearings, fresh paint, and reassembling. All the parts look to be there, which is nice, so I'll definitely be sorting that out once I have time.  Flash rusting doesn't seem to be much of an issue either, surprisingly, though any parts like the hubcabs above do get given an immediate spritz with WD40 just to keep things clean until I can get the time to do a more thorough protection job.

The other thing I had a little bit of time for today was finding where the numbers were hiding on the block of the dismantled engine and I can only find two so hopefully that will help with identification.  The general consensus across fora is this is a rebuilt/remanufactured unit done by Daimler in '58.  I haven't seen any really obvious damage beyond the bent push rods so it's entirely likely it is rebuildable and while I still don't think I'm the one that's going to do it, I can at least clean and protect the parts that are there for someone else to tackle.

This casting on the block appears to read 1 (bolt hole) 181889

This little brass plaque on the other side of the block appears to read 31371 (the 1 also looks a bit like a triangle, but I think that's just how it's stamped)

Pat also salvaged a sturdy gazebo which should offer some weather protection and extend the amount of time I can work on things outdoors which will be particularly useful since April has decided to be maximum April this year.

[vulgalour]

Spent a little time with the pressure washer on this.  There was such a heavy build up of grease that almost every bolt and fastening was completely hidden.  A combination of scrapers applied and I can now see what I've got to work with here.  The mechanical components are really tightly packed in so I'm expecting access for undoing things to be a nightmare.  However, because everything has been smothered in grease for so long there's a good chance things might actually come undone without too much grief since nothing could really got rusty.

I'm not sure if it's best to try and remove as much of the suspension and brakes as possible in a single assembly, or if it's better to dismantle things while they're attached to the chassis.  I've also no idea on the best course of action with the springs since I doubt I'll be able to get my compressors on them.  It's all very cramped looking so I'm expecting a lot of unpleasant spanner use.  All the rubber bushings look completely worn out, unsurprisingly, but the metal parts all seem pretty sound bar some normal surface rust.  Some parts even have paint left on them.

[vulgalour]

Today after work I got the front wheels off.  Happily, the wheel nuts came undone quite easily, with one on each wheel being tighter than the rest, presumably these were the ones sat in the mud.

With it up on stands the suspension droops a lot more than expected and gives much better access to the springs so I should be able to get my compressors on there after all.

One thing I hadn't realised is that there is no antiroll bar or links fitted to the donor car.  Presumably a previous owner removed them along with a few other things - front apron, both bumpers, driver's seat, gearbox, radiator - that didn't come with the car.  Interestingly, it appears our car doesn't have one fitted either which I hadn't realised until today.  With the front wheels off I can see better how everything goes together and have a slightly better idea of how to dismantle things.  It will be interesting to get a look inside the brakes and possibly swap some parts over there.  On KKV222 one of the front driver's side wheel studs comes out with the wheel nut, which isn't at all ideal, but the studs on the donor behave normally so that should solve a problem we have there that might otherwise have been a bit difficult to resolve.

Front wheels look in reasonable shape too so hopefully they will restore nicely.  As I've been cycling parts through the oxalic acid I have learned that three of the four hub caps are probably re-chromable, and the water pump is complete and rebuildable.  The former is unlikely to happen for quite some time, I'll just be sure to store the hubcaps better so they don't degrade further.  The latter is going to be a little project for me to undertake once the donor remains are disposed of since I don't want to start more projects before completing existing ones if I can at all help it.

I'll continue chipping away at what I can as time permits.

[High Jetter]

They had ARB's originally?

[Asimo]

ARB or not, that front suspension looks interesting, the sort of complex multi-link that many modern cars now have. 
 

Shouldn’t be a surprise,  Engineer Lanchester wrote the book about independant suspension.  Literally.

[vulgalour]

1 hour ago, High Jetter said:

They had ARB's originally?

Apparently so.  It shows up in the original brochure and I do have an antiroll bar link that was loose in the donor car.  You can see an empty hole in the arm that comes out of the suspension shock absorber thing and goes to the drop link, that's where the antiroll bar link would normally bolt in as I understand it and then a sturdy bar runs in front of the crossmember to the other side.

There's some PDF scans of the handbooks here: http://ld10.awardspace.co.uk/index_6.htm that explain some of what's going on with the suspension though the diagrams don't seem to show an antiroll bar even though one is mentioned as being present.

[watkindj]

17 hours ago, vulgalour said:

Apparently so.  It shows up in the original brochure and I do have an antiroll bar link that was loose in the donor car.  You can see an empty hole in the arm that comes out of the suspension shock absorber thing and goes to the drop link, that's where the antiroll bar link would normally bolt in as I understand it and then a sturdy bar runs in front of the crossmember to the other side.

There's some PDF scans of the handbooks here: http://ld10.awardspace.co.uk/index_6.htm that explain some of what's going on with the suspension though the diagrams don't seem to show an antiroll bar even though one is mentioned as being present.

you can see the links and antiroll bar in this article

[PhilA]

That's a lot more complex than I thought it would be.

I do see they've done their best to eliminate bump steer too.

Phil

[vulgalour]

Finally got the engine components processed through the oxalic solution and cleaned enough to see what I'm actually dealing with now the grease, loose rust, and other detritus is off.  Something went very wrong at some point in its history and this engine had a bad day.

I noticed when I was cleaning stuff up, some of the oil feed holes in the bearings were completely blocked.  This may have been historic, this may have been from storage, I'm not sure, however given what else I saw I'm leaning toward the former.  With all the parts laid out it looks like we're possibly missing a couple of bits.  There's also two bearing shells that appear to be brand new still with the packing grease which I thought was old grease like everything else until trying to clean it off.  I'm not sure those bearing shells are even for this engine.

Some of the damage is from poor storage of the car before it reached us, with some pretty extensive rust pitting due to parts being in containers that were filling with rainwater.  That's done for four of the valves and not given the valve springs or the valve spring seats a good time either.

One of the bearing shells showed some bad scoring even before cleaning.  After cleaning, several of the bearing shells have scores that are pretty deep.

Then there's the pushrod situation. Of the original eight, only six and a bit are actually present with two from entirely different engines.  The stub of the snapped pushrod looks like a twist-snap rather than a bend-snap and I've no idea how you manage to do that.  The bent ones could probably be hammered straight again.  Thing is, where do you even get pushrods for this engine?  Maybe they're generic, I don't know.

In addition to all that, the four valves that are still quite shiny and rust free have impact marks on the surface of three out of the four.  Could you use these again?  Would you want to?  Probably best to add that to your rebuild shopping list.

I'm definitely not getting into the rebuild of this.  For one, I still don't like working on engines, and for another I've plenty of other things I'd rather spend my limit time and money on than this.  I'll strip it of parts that are useful to us and that we can store, and the rest will be moved on.  After I've cleaned it, I'll weigh the engine parts we're not using and they'll be available at scrap value, can't say fairer than that can I?  Or make me a reasonable offer before then to save me the hassle, even better if you can collect it and get it out of my house.

[vulgalour]

I've been nibbling away at dismantling as time permits this week and have made a bit of progress.

As you can see, some of the driver's side suspension is now off.  Since I'm not sure of the proper process, I've just gone for what appears to make most sense and see where it takes me.  First up was grinding what remained of the bolt heads holding down the brake cable plate, this was tricky because the steering column and box are still attached.  I normally wouldn't resort to grinding bolt heads off but in this case it was necessary since the heads were closer in shape to pyramids than hexagons.  I then unbolted the lever arm suspension damper thingy which, amazingly, just unbolted from the car.  Minor disassembly issue in that one of the bolts can't actually be removed without removing the steering box so I guess the steering box went on after the suspension originally.

I wasn't sure how I was going to unbolt the suspension piece from the droplink at first.  Turns out it wasn't a problem because the rubber bush was so badly degraded the components simply fell off.  I imagine normally there's some resistance with this part.  That done attention turned to the lower bolt that holds the hub to the lower arm.  I had hoped this would just unbolt since it looked in reasonable shape, however it quickly became apparent the only way it was parting company was with the help of an angle grinder so I did just that.  With a jack under the arm and a little help from Pat to put some downward pressure on things as I knocked the stub of the chopped off bolt through, I then released the jack and let the pressure from the spring gently lower it.  No need for spring compressors, happily, just a bit of patience as the spring pushed the lower arm out of the way and could then be lifted out safely.

I set aside the rubber bushes that locate the bottom of the hub in the arm just in case I need those in the future for reference or use if they're still okay.  I had hoped to then remove the lower arm since it's now only held in with a bolt that goes through the crossmember.  Unfortunately, the bolt is completely stuck in the bushing and I can't get it to let go.  The nut did come undone really easily.  I'm assuming there's a rubber bush inside that's binding everything up, it's not a problem for now.

Once that's out the only thing that looks to be holding this hub on is the through bolt at the bulkhead end that goes through the chassis and the long arm.  I made an attempt to undo this on my own but I think this is a two person job so that you can get a decent amount of force on each tool used.

All done, a few pieces liberated  One front spring, a lever arm shock absorber thing, droplink, brake cable guide plate, bulkhead wiring harness clamp, a couple of bushes, and one of the radiator stays since I was fed up of it poking me in the head.

 

[2flags]

You are doing an amazing job on this. I look forward when we hear you actually have it running. Striping down a spares car for bits is a time honoured way of acquiring the bits you need. [Just ask my wife!] Keep at it. You will finish it soon I'm sure.  

[vulgalour]

I win!

That was more effort than it should have been, not as much effort as it might have been. Arm looks to be in decent shape, just some cosmetic rust really. The bush still seems to be okay too, surprisingly. To get it out I tried a variety of approaches, the most effective was to get my little butane torch in as close as I could - initially I was trying to melt the rubber bush, this was something it turned out I couldn't actually do - and then walloping the threaded end of the bolt with a lump hammer. This has made a mess of the threads, predictably, but since you couldn't leave the nut on and hit that since it wouldn't pass through the hole the bolt goes through it was one of those things that was unavoidable. Once the bolt was to a point that I couldn't hit it with a hammer I drifted it through first with a socket extension and then a large punch and eventually got it out. The reason you can't actually set fire to the bush is the arm has baffles in to protect it and align the bolt, on the plus side, this means the bush is still in pretty good shape as far as I can tell, just a bit messy with old crusty oil deposits from the surrounding crossmember.

The reason the bolt was stuck wasn't what I'd expected. I assumed it was seized to the metal inner collar of the bush and the rubber had deteriorated which is why it would rotate but wouldn't push out. Turns out, the old grease on the shank of the bolt had just got so sticky and solid it was preventing the bolt from sliding. Heat from the butane torch softened the grease just enough that applied force could move things apart.


I'll see if I can file out the damage to the bolt threads so that I can get the nut back on and keep the arm together for storage purposes. Ideally, you'd replace the bolt. It's one more little piece of the puzzle solved, last thing for this corner is that bolt for the long arm which hopefully Pat and I can tackle this weekend.

[vulgalour]

Pat and I got the front and rear screens out today and discovered quite a lot of rot.

The rear screen is afflicted with woodworm in the frame.  What was rather concerning is that after removing the glass we realised that some of the body was moving independently of the rest of the body even though it should be bolted to the chassis still.  We knew we would probably have to break the body down, there's literally no market for it and it needs such extensive repair work to the metal and the wood that one has to accept when a thing is used up.  I carefully marked out the cuts I'd make to remove the rear quarters in as whole a section as I could with minimal cutting and made a start, only to have the car begin to dismantle itself part way through the process.

That would explain the bodywork movement.  Quite a lot of the rear arch framework is totally rotten and where it isn't rotten, it's riddled with woodworm, and where it isn't riddled with woodworm or rotten it is simply gone.  I ended up mostly removing the rear quarters by hand and very little in the way of force. Given how fragile the state of things were it's a surprise the car actually made it all the way from Burton to Kent in one piece.

So much for salvaging a frame cut to help repair ours in the future where I've been dealing with the woodworm.  With the quarters off, the body was still technically bolted to the chassis, you just wouldn't know it from how much it was now wobbling about.  Another long discussion was had about what to do with the rest of it.  There's no way restoration was viable, the roof had woodworm in the frame and being aluminimium wasn't really desireable amongst the classic modifying community and wasn't even of use as a donor panel.  The value in the roof was definitely the outer skin, most of which I'll salvage and store for future use.  The wooden frame is little more than firewood.  So off it came.

I wasn't at all keen on doing this.  I know we're restoring one and I know this one is too far gone to save, it just doesn't make it feel any better chopping up what is a very rare car.  The only consolation is that parts saved from this one that might otherwise have been scrapped will go on to help at least one more survive.

I ran out of time and energy to deal with the bolts holding the B pillars to the car, that's 8 bolts that are definitely going to be seized solid and need the heads grinding off, I just didn't have it in me to do it today.  The rot has even got into the very sturdy angle iron support that holds the intermediary boot floor. On this car it has all the consistency of melted cheese.

The pile of dirt, rust, and wood dust is growing beneath the car.  Every time we do anything on it more falls off and the rot holes grow larger.  There's still more to remove like the wiper motor assembly, all of the running gear, and even the battery box.  Not having the bulk of the body on the car is going to make removing what's left a lot easier and I think we'll end up chopping off the remains of the steel body from the chassis to aid in clean up and dissassembly.

[Stanky]

7 minutes ago, vulgalour said:

 

 

Excellent progress on this, and top marks for being pragmatic. The parts yielded from this will help yours live on far longer. Incidentally, I have a sneaking suspicion that there is less rust in the donor Lanchester than lurks in the Daihatsu Copen in the background of this pic!

[vulgalour]

That little Copen has survived far longer than I'd expect one with visible rust on the outside to last.