Is this legal?

[philsford]

Some interesting thoughts here and I am no further forward on what is right or wrong. At least a real traffic cop has put his opinion on here(have I got mixed up with all the info on this or did you say if it looks ok you wouldn't stop the outfit?)

I think a nice brian james trailer and a transit van would be best although a transit towing a dolly with an 80s escort size car on it wouldn't look wrong in my opinion, maybe even a couple of amber beacons on the roof and a high viz jacket would add to the I know what I'm doing look.

I belive brian james do a trailer with a gross weight of 2000kg giving around 1400kg for the load but I am guessing the cars maxx weight needs to be under the 1400kg rather than what it actually weighs?

[martybabes]

Have you got an example of case law? Not magistrates court, actual crown court. I'm just going on what it says in the manual, it is a few years out of date though. Apparently even a chicken coop on wheels or a shed can be classed as a road vehicle!

 

Crown Court wont provide judicial precedent either.  Decisions from the Divisional Court, the High Court, the Court of Appeal or the Supreme Court (formally House of Lords) will.  

 

And for the uninitiated in the mysteries of the English criminal legal system: a decision from a superior court (not the Magistrates or Crown) will have a binding effect on similar cases brought in lower courts (which means that a decision from the Supreme Court binds ALL lower courts; a decision from the Court of Appeal binds the High Court, the Crown Court and Magistrates Court; and a decision from the Divisional Court binds the Crown Court and Magistrates Court.  And I have made the Divisional Court a stand-alone court for these purposes but it is actually part of the High Court QBD)).

[Pete-M]

I've been looking very closely into towing laws recently in order to getting my car from Czech. It appears that the way things work in the UK is different from most of Europe in that over there if something isn't specifically mentioned in law as being legal then it ain't. In the UK it appears to be that if it ain't mentioned in law as being illegal then it might be.

 

I think by far and away the easiest way is to use a trailer. ..

[Lankytim]

I think its accepted that A frames aint legit in the U.K, it's just exactly how illegal they are and what laws they break that's in question.

 

Interesting point on case law in crown court, I always thought that a decision in crown court set case law for magistrates and magistrate decisions didn't set any case law at all. I'm not sure in what circumstances an A frame based motoring offence would go higher than crown though, unless a load of school kids died or something.

[Dave_Q]

Interestingly in the thread linked to by Warren, the chap got pulled framing a smart car with a van, the officer stated he was giving him 3 points for defective brakes on the 'trailer' (i.e. none.) His summons stated faulty brakes on his van, which of course they had no evidence of so the chap got off on appeal and his costs back.

 

Linking the pepipoo thread again as it's an interesting (if fairly long) read; http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=65796

 

This really seems to be an untested area of the law. As stated repeatedly car + frame = trailer so trailer regs apply. 

 

However the actual law seems to state that;

 

 

 

Braking systems of vehicles to which regulation 15 does not apply

16. (3) (e) a broken down vehicle;

 

This is from the C&U regs on trailers and seems to be stating that a broken down vehicle is exempt from the regs on trailer brakes.

 

It sounds like all the bits about distance etc are made up / untested. 

In theory as long as you can convince a court that your trailer was a broken down vehicle and therefore exempt from the braking requirements you'd be fine.

 

Of course, it needs a rich a-framer to be done for it and appeal high enough to set a precedent.

 

Of course I will defer to resident legal eagle Breadvan72 as regards the soundness of my uninformed, man on t'internet legal arguments.

[Lankytim]

So what's a broken down vehicle? Pulling the king lead off so the engine won't run? A car that won't run because it's seized through standing?

[red5]

I would suggest a vehicle that was driving and has suffered unexpected failure. recently. As in same day. Not some old shite with no engine/partially stripped at your /mates/normal garage. That's not recovery- that's haulage.

 

Bear in mind the one underlying theme repeated here - 'you' will be working on the most optimistic 'interpretation' whereas the beak you end up before will not. Use a trailer/proper transport firm. Unless the law is clarified all of these arguments seem to centre around what the user thinks is appropriate. i would suggest the polar opposite should be the stand point to ensure you don't fall foul of the law/kill or injure someone. I fail to see how it can be worth it.

[HillmanImp]

Ignoring everything else, the main reason I see that you cannot A-frame a car is that if a car is A-framed it is seen as a trailer and as it has a braking system, then the braking system on that trailer must operate. 

 

Re the broken down vehicle thing, I have not read the actual legislation but the guidance says that you cannot use a dolly to transport a car from A to B but you can recover a broken down vehicle (it does not seem to have this clause in for A frames though but again have not read the actual regs).

 

Therefore my interpretation of this would be that a broken down car will be assumed to have ceased working away from its destination. So if I wanted to get a car I just bought in Wales back home, if I was pulled on the way back I would probably need to be able to demonstrate that the car broke down on the journey and I am recovering it, so would need to be road legal to have completed this journey in the first place (although you can always book it in for an MOT or some repair work for the MOT as we all know). It could have broken down at its starting point of course because one of the leads fell off. I think it would be up to the courts to prove that I was moving the car between point a and point b rather than recovering it.

 

So as usual with the British legal system, its a grey area. I think the moral here is that if you are doing any of the above and its not a genuine recovery, then you may be seen as falling fowl of the law. Just be aware of this when you are doing it.

 

 

 

[Barry Cade]

So what's a broken down vehicle? Pulling the king lead off so the engine won't run? A car that won't run because it's seized through standing?

A whole new can of worms- In the breakdown industry, you have a whole load of exemptions etc, including operators licences etc. As soon as you transport a vehicle which isn't "broken down" it then becomes goods- which adds a whole load of pain...

[Richard]

Since we've got all that cleared up* I'd like to throw a few more worms into the can...

 

What's the deal with towing on a rope or solid bar? What about if you A-frame a legal car with a driver in it?

[twosmoke300]

im sure ive seen a frames with a linked brake system with them. Looked a bit of a lash up but would probably work.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

is it legal to use a mobile phone while A-framing (on a private road or field) if you are ringing the police to ask advice about this kind of stuff? Etc.

[Des]

There's a market for an inflatable caravan here, strap it over your booty and A frame away, free of impediment.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

^^^^^ flipping brilliant.

 

Heres my best ever A-frame effort, probably never to be surpassed (by me I mean):

 

http://retrorides.proboards.com/thread/19746

[Wilko220]

^^^^^ flipping brilliant.

 

Heres my best ever A-frame effort, probably never to be surpassed (by me I mean):

 

http://retrorides.proboards.com/thread/19746

Stupendous... What became of the 929 then?

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Still have it.... its in my dads garage beside the Talbot Alpine!

[Lankytim]

The problem with using a car transporter trailer over a dolly or A frame is that you need something lice a discovery to tow it, most cars would be overweight towing a car transporter.

 

Anyway, I was going to type up all this shizz from the Blackstones manual, but decided to just take pics of the pages instead.

 

 

 

 

I think much of that is pretty irrelevant for the subject but the definition of a recovery vehicle is interesting.

[MrDuke]

The problem with using a car transporter trailer over a dolly or A frame is that you need something like a discovery to tow it, most cars would be overweight towing a car transporter.

 

OOOPS!!

 

[philsford]

That picture above just sums up the main reason I sold my trailer in the first place. While I had it in the garage the temptation was there to go and fetch stuff. I had fetched cars from all over England never using suitable tow cars. I used my moms rover 75 a few times which looked up to the job but was obviously the wrong side of the law (I had a major tail wagging the dog moment coming up the A45 with my rather expensive Escort on the back). But that was probably the best example. I went with a mate and his 2.0 8v Cavalier once to kent to fetch a Metro and the trailers MAM was probably double what the car should have towed.

 

I had gone from home in Walsall to Ipswich to fetch this. I wouldn't risk it now.

[DSdriver]

I now want to take you way back... way back to 1972/3. 

A mate of mine had a Jaguar engined racer and entered a sprint down near Aldershot. The Jag was on a trailer, number of wheels forgotten and the towcar I was driving was a big old Zodiac.

Now, here's the interesting bit, the tow hitch on the Zody had a small wheel attached below it with a couple of large springs holding the wheel on the road under the towing hitch. It made the tow much more stable but I'm not sure how.

Has anyone else used one of these and how would they affect the legal arguments?

[MrDuke]

I've always been led to believe that for maximum stability, the weight carried on a trailer should be centred exactly above the axles, thus ensuring that no weight at all is borne by the towbar. However, as it's unlikely that most towers would bother to calculate the weight distribution, and as a front-engined car which appeared to be central would actually be making the tow-hitch heavier, I can see that such a set-up ^^^^^ would probably be a noticeable improvement.

[Lankytim]

You need a bit of weight on the hitch, otherwise the trailer tends to swing about a bit, plus it helps to keep the towing vehicles rear wheels planted to the road, especially important when i'm trailering my Dennis fire engine with my Fiat 126.

[panhard65]

I will always use a trailer and something big and 4x4 to tow it with. My brian James has a 17f tilt bed but still weighs in at just 600kg empty and It can take 2000kg load. I find that as long as you keep the brakes adjusted and working properly it will stop in a straight line with no drama, you can actually feel it pulling the tow car to a halt rather than the car having to do all the braking. If you are going to tow use a 4x4 with a towing weight of 3500kg (A lot of these 4x4 pick ups only go 2000kg) and a decent quality trailer. I have used dollies and homemade trailers over the years but would never go back now. As has been stated before if it looks right plod will leave you alone. I managed to stumble upon a VOSA check point in the services on the M1 the other week with a Renault 25 on the trailer. I was a bit miffed that they didn't even look at it just waved me through. The Avantime and trailer combo pictured earlier would most likely get away with it as the trailer probably has better brakes than the car. It would surely of been way over weight though as there aren't many cars can tow more than 1500kg. At the end of the day it is all about risk and if you are prepared to take it. I personally won't any more and with some of the stupidly low quotes you can get for shifting cars on shiply there is no need to.

[twosmoke300]

Saab 9-5 has a 1600kg tow weight. Quite handy sometimes. Might * have towed a 4 post ramp from derby to cornwall with it . On a big Brian james trailer. Towed lovely and as mentioned above the trailer brakes the car so stays lovely and stable.

[Lankytim]

I had a big car transport, very handy but the biggest pain was storing it, making sure it didn't get nicked and constantly adjusting and repairing the brakes. unless you use them frequently the brakes rust and seize up. A total pain.

[solid61]

I have just sold a towing dolly that I had used fairly regular for 17 years,although it didn't look very stable when loaded I never had any problems with it,kept it in good order with regular wheelbearing checks and the tyres didn't last long so they were checked all the time.when towing it was very stable and you could feel the brakes working well.Towed it with many cars from a mk 1 fiesta to a bmw 750i,smallest car being towed was a mini and the largest an espace,never got a second look from the plod but I figured they didn't really know the law in detail so why would they stop me?,best combo was an espace towed by a 406 and I have a photo of it somewhere,looked very dodgy but I drove through a roadside DVLA/POLICE check without a problem ,it was a very handy tool and saved a fortune over the years and I was sad to see it go but didn't use it any more,maybee I was lucky?.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Yesterday i overtook a BMW E36 coupé track car on a very nice Brian James 4-wheel trailer. He had a row of spare tyres on the front of the trailer too. The car towing it was another E36 coupé!!! Although the track car was no doubt stripped out a bit, the towed weight must have been 150% of the towing car weight. However the whole rig was totally immaculate and looked the bo11ox, the driver wad even smartly dressed. Bet he never gets any grief while towing.

[dieselnutjob]

I've always been led to believe that for maximum stability, the weight carried on a trailer should be centred exactly above the axles, thus ensuring that no weight at all is borne by the towbar. However, as it's unlikely that most towers would bother to calculate the weight distribution, and as a front-engined car which appeared to be central would actually be making the tow-hitch heavier, I can see that such a set-up ^^^^^ would probably be a noticeable improvement.

 

^^THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS.  A trailer needs some nose weight to be stable, an ideal amount is probably about 10% of the weight of the trailer on the towball and the remaining 90% on the wheels.  Basically the more weight that's on the front the better from a stability point of view (but not the rear suspension of the tow vehicle). Unfortunately most modern cars have a towball weight limit of about 70kg which is way less 10% of a loaded car trailer.  One advantage of a big 4x4 is not only the weight of it but that you can also run a higher nose weight which is good for stability.

 

If you run any larger trailer or caravan with zero nose weight you ARE going to crash.

 

The fundamental problem with trailer stability is this: any sideways force on the towball is behind the rear axle line of the car.  If the trailer hits a bump or something and tries to push the towball left, then this force pivots on the back axle and will tend to push the cars front wheels to the right.  This makes the whole rig steer right, throwing the trailer weight left, increasing the left force on the towball, making things worse.  This is called positive feedback, which always leads to instability.

 

On an artic the pivot point is ahead of the rear axle line which means that a left force on the pivot pushed the steering left tending to self cancel the forces which is why a ten ton artic tractor can safely pull a trailer weighing three or four times as much.

 

If you want a stable tow vehicle you want something heavy, long wheelbase,  as short an overhang as possible at the back, and as much noseweight as possible without overloading the towbar or rear suspension.

[dieselnutjob]

it seems that 5-7% is the noseweight that the experts recommend not the 10% that I said.

 

see this

http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/media/6678669/noseweights-mo.pdf

 

The hero of that document is the Citroen XM (hatch not estate) with it's 110kg S rating.

 

The problem with my 806 is that it can legally tow 2000kg but the S rating would give you less than 4% noseweight.  If I ever do tow that much weight with it I will definitely want at least 100kg on the nose and to hell with the S rating.

[Lankytim]

On a similar topic, has anybody used one of those non_pivoting towing Dollies? How tf are they suppost to work? How can you get round mini roundabouts?