The grumpy thread

[Mr Pastry]

25 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Just had another letter from the Council.  Apparently they're under the impression that I have started operating a vehicle restoration or repair business out of my property, in contravention with the local planning regulations.  They are investigating the matter and invite me to provide evidence to prove that I am not in fact operating said business.  Um, how exactly am I supposed to provide evidence of NOT doing something?

Guess that's going to be a fun hour sitting on hold tomorrow trying to get through to speak to an actual person.

That sounds as though you have been "reported" by a busybody neighbour who has nothing better to do.  There's always one.   Do you know who it is?   Best not to respond, imo.  Engaging with the council is likely to make things worse.  They can easily check that all your vehicles are registered to you, so clearly you are not repairing them for others.  Let them work it out for themselves.  

[sierraman]

I’ve grossly misunderstood the justice system yet again, you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty not the other way round. It’s up to them to demonstrate you are trading. 

[Pieman]

41 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Give me strength...

Just had another letter from the Council.  Apparently they're under the impression that I have started operating a vehicle restoration or repair business out of my property, in contravention with the local planning regulations.  They are investigating the matter and invite me to provide evidence to prove that I am not in fact operating said business.  Um, how exactly am I supposed to provide evidence of NOT doing something?

Guess that's going to be a fun hour sitting on hold tomorrow trying to get through to speak to an actual person.

This is in addition to the planning enforcement notice received from them a few weeks ago about us having apparently built a fence on their land - despite every single set of plans I've had sight of (including from the land registry) clearly showing our boundary to butt up right against the footpath.  Still waiting for them to confirm the details on that one, though at least they have acknowledged they've received my initial response.

Write back and say "It is quite obvious that you and everyone else just plain don't want me living here, so please find me an alternative and pay for it."

[andy18s]

18 hours ago, sierraman said:

Oh there is! Plenty out there will be a few thousand quid to get it sorted, I can see why they do it, the NHS wants them rammed back to back constantly, of course they’re gonna look to private work. No help to you or me though! 

The Mrs had an emergency wisdom tooth extraction last month.

Phoned the dentist to arrange it asap.

She got an appointment to go for a panoramic x-ray at 9am,with the actual procedure an hour later.

All sorted within 48hrs of the 1st call.

200 lev/ £95 was the total cost including her 1st lot of painkillers to follow on with. 

One of the benefits of Bulgarian life.

No ID card needed so you could fly over to Varna or Burgas for a week,get work done then fly back.

Sofia would be possible but more expensive all round.

[horriblemercedes]

I must be lucky with my dentist - it seems easy to get an appointment (NHS) quickly. I phoned for a check up and got offered one next day. I couldn't make it to that though so I took one within the same week

[rattlecan]

24 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

That sounds as though you have been "reported" by a busybody neighbour who has nothing better to do.  There's always one.   Do you know who it is?   Best not to respond, imo.  Engaging with the council is likely to make things worse.  They can easily check that all your vehicles are registered to you, so clearly you are not repairing them for others.  Let them work it out for themselves.  

Exactly this, just ignore them, until someone turns up & then talk to them face to face. It will be pretty obvious 

[Rocket88]

15 minutes ago, rattlecan said:

Exactly this, just ignore them, until someone turns up & then talk to them face to face. It will be pretty obvious 

A letter to the effect…

” I would be delighted to show you my sprawling business empire at your earliest convenience, please send at least 18 of your staff, clad in bespoke hi-viz, hard hats, and multitudinous clip boards.

I can supply refreshments from my staff canteen, and we have ample parking.
You will need ID passes, which I can provide, if you would kindly furnish me with the names of the 18 highly esteemed staff

[Yoss]

26 minutes ago, Rocket88 said:

 

I can supply refreshments from my staff canteen, and we have ample parking.
 

Unless you turn up at school kicking out time. Although if they did turn up then you might be able to show them one of your other problems.

[BorniteIdentity]

1 hour ago, Mr Pastry said:

That sounds as though you have been "reported" by a busybody neighbour who has nothing better to do.  There's always one.   Do you know who it is?   Best not to respond, imo.  Engaging with the council is likely to make things worse.  They can easily check that all your vehicles are registered to you, so clearly you are not repairing them for others.  Let them work it out for themselves.  

Hmm. I don't know if the City Council CAN do vehicle look ups.  Maybe they're hooked up to the 'Special Tool' but I imagine they would have to write to DVLA and pay, which they won't want to do.

It's tricky territory, and we had it with that Fiat chap on here a few years ago who had a millionty cars all in a row.  The council didn't just say "Mmmkay" and disappear. @For Fiats Sake I think it was.

I'd absolutely be engaging with the council and trying to help and reassure them that you're simply a vehicle enthusiast and they're all taxed/sorned and in your name.  There should be no conflation between the two (completely separate) issues of the planning and the boundary.

My recommendation to anyone dealing with a local authority is be polite, be transparent, do everything in writing (don't accept any calls - ask them to write to you) and be helpful.  Try to remember: this isn't personal; they are just investigating something and are on a fact finding mission.

 

 

EDIT - found the thread, and @rantingYoof's excellent appraisal.  

 

[Zelandeth]

1 hour ago, Mr Pastry said:

That sounds as though you have been "reported" by a busybody neighbour who has nothing better to do.  There's always one.   Do you know who it is?   Best not to respond, imo.  Engaging with the council is likely to make things worse.  They can easily check that all your vehicles are registered to you, so clearly you are not repairing them for others.  Let them work it out for themselves.  

They've clearly indicated that I have 21 days to provide them with the evidence or it will be escalated (in red print even) to their enforcement team and that I may then be liable for any legal charges from that point, so ignoring it and hoping it will go away isn't going to be viable.

I will be responding to the email address listed and copying by post, I'd just like to speak to someone to confirm if there's anything specific that would be useful for me to provide.  In the absence of any other feedback they'll get copies of the documentation proving all vehicles to be in my name (except Chris' company car anyway which we see no paperwork for save for the rental agreement) and a covering letter explaining that I'm simply a hobbyist.

I worked for a local council for eight years up north, which is one of the reasons that this lot being so damned difficult to communicate with is so frustrating.

The only neighbours who can actually see our frontage are the folks across the road, who are the only neighbours we ever really communicate with, and get along quite well with.  The others either keep to themselves or are rental tenants who change what feels like about every six months.

[Sunny Jim]

@Zelandeth could your thread be used as evidence? It documents that the vehicles are all yours and when and what work you've done on them. Even if you don't show it to the council you could copy and paste the relevant bits into a diary.

Hope you manage to get it sorted without too much hassle.

[Zelandeth]

I'm sure it won't be too hard to sort in the end.  It's just a bit of a headache from a stress perspective having them breathing down my neck from two different angles within a couple of weeks. 

[artdjones]

1 hour ago, andy18s said:

The Mrs had an emergency wisdom tooth extraction last month.

Phoned the dentist to arrange it asap.

She got an appointment to go for a panoramic x-ray at 9am,with the actual procedure an hour later.

All sorted within 48hrs of the 1st call.

200 lev/ £45 was the total cost including her 1st lot of painkillers to follow on with. 

One of the benefits of Bulgarian life.

No ID card needed so you could fly over to Varna or Burgas for a week,get work done then fly back.

Sofia would be possible but more expensive all round.

My wife paid €750 per tooth for two last year and the year before in Ireland.

[BorniteIdentity]

21 hours ago, Sunny Jim said:

@Zelandeth could your thread be used as evidence?

Zel - please be the first person in the history of the British judicial system to present evidence from 'popular automotive-subculture discussion board autoshite dot com' in a sitting court.  

[rattlecan]

12 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

I'm sure it won't be too hard to sort in the end.  It's just a bit of a headache from a stress perspective having them breathing down my neck from two different angles within a couple of weeks. 

And that my friends is why every council is skint. 

[Mr Pastry]

23 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

They've clearly indicated that I have 21 days to provide them with the evidence or it will be escalated (in red print even) to their enforcement team and that I may then be liable for any legal charges from that point, so ignoring it and hoping it will go away isn't going to be viable.

Don't let them bully you. 

[LightBulbFun]

2 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

Give me strength...

Just had another letter from the Council.  Apparently they're under the impression that I have started operating a vehicle restoration or repair business out of my property, in contravention with the local planning regulations.  They are investigating the matter and invite me to provide evidence to prove that I am not in fact operating said business.  Um, how exactly am I supposed to provide evidence of NOT doing something?

Guess that's going to be a fun hour sitting on hold tomorrow trying to get through to speak to an actual person.

This is in addition to the planning enforcement notice received from them a few weeks ago about us having apparently built a fence on their land - despite every single set of plans I've had sight of (including from the land registry) clearly showing our boundary to butt up right against the footpath.  Still waiting for them to confirm the details on that one, though at least they have acknowledged they've received my initial response.

Jesus fucking Christ! the amount of shit that you cop, is just not fucking fair

 

you are a seriously decent bloke, and it enrages me just how much crap you cop, I know sadly that this is just the tip of the ice burg, for example I remember the time you got a word from a copper in a police car for "anti social behaviour" because you happened to be downshifting in the camper van on approach to a roundabout, you know as anyone would do when slowing down for a hazard!

and then when the same police for example have no interest, in doing anything about the abuse that I know you have had from the general population around there

it just fucking pisses me off

 

it frustrates me also, because I wish I could do something for you, somehow make it better, magically get you out of there

 

you know how they move entire buildings? can we just move your house to the FoD? 

 

I think @Six-cylinder would be greatful to have you onsite 247!  (or @Saabnut's back yard!)

[Zelandeth]

1 hour ago, sierraman said:

I’ve grossly misunderstood the justice system yet again, you are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty not the other way round. It’s up to them to demonstrate you are trading. 

Our experiences following a mental breakdown of a family member back in 2016 proved the whole innocent until proven guilty thing to be complete and utter cobblers.  We instead discovered that "The burden of proof" instead lays with the accused.  In this case as we had no actual physical evidence that the offense accused hadn't been committed, and subsequently basically got the book thrown at us.  

The NHS were waaaaay more willing to provide mental health support *after* the event that we'd been screaming at the top of our lungs was going to happen for the proceeding three years...ya know that might have been real nice to have before a loved one ended up dropping off the face of the earth for a full day, eventually surfacing a day later in a police cell under suicide watch.

1 minute ago, LightBulbFun said:

Jesus fucking Christ! the amount of shit that you cop, is just not fucking fair

 

you are a seriously decent bloke, and it enrages me just how much crap you cop, I know sadly that this is just the tip of the ice burg, for example I remember the time you got a word from a copper in a police car for "anti social behaviour" because you happened to be downshifting in the camper van on approach to a roundabout, you know as anyone would do when slowing down for a hazard!

and then when the same police for example have no interest, in doing anything about the abuse that I know you have had from the general population around there

 

it frustrates me also, because I wish I could do something for you, somehow make it better, magically get you out of there

 

you know how they move entire buildings? can we just move your house to the FoD? 

 

I think @Six-cylinder would be greatful to have you onsite 247!  

It just comes with the territory I think.  Not going to let it get to me, as we're bit by bit getting things ticked off we need to before we can just get the hell out of here.  Biggest headache is just that the employer of the largest earner in the family by a huge chunk has made it abundantly clear that they're neither willing to entertain less than 25% of time in the office nor relocating to another office elsewhere in the country.  So that's a pretty major speed bump we need to navigate, and is definitely the biggest constraining factor with regards to timescales.  The rest is just crap which might knock value off the house, which while unfortunate isn't the end of the world (within reason).  

[Dave_Q]

Please do check the thread bornite linked Zel as in the previous case (different guy and council, admittedly) their enforcement guys were insisting that the number of cars he had on the premises was more than they considered to be "incidental to the usage of the dwelling-house" or other such planning speak.

He never posted the full details of how the negotiation went but he ended up selling off some cars and going down to 4 cars stored at the premises which was a number the council were happy with.

All the cars were his, he was just a man who liked small Fiats and had a few. So it's not as simple as just proving you're not running a business.

I don't believe FFS ever "got legal" and tested in court whether having more than 4 of your own cars on your own property was really a planning breach but either way it was a sad tale.

[SiC]

"I have a passion for old cars and love using old cars as regular transport like they are designed for and would have been done back in the day. Unfortunately old cars have a habit of breaking. So I end up having to fix them often so I can keep them safe and legally roadworthy. It's very much a labour of love and an expensive hobby."

[SiC]

It's always a fear of mine that either this would happen to me or the taxman comes along thinking it's a business not reported. Likewise if someone ever tried to say I'm a dealer and everything that entails. 

Hence why I often add up/track what a car is costing me and try to sell for around that. Basically to make sure it's not Net profit making.

 

[Mally]

3 hours ago, artdjones said:

My wife paid €750 per tooth for two last year and the year before in Ireland.

You will get a week in Sunny Beach for 1 tooths worth. 

Work out at a free holiday including spends,

[rantingYoof]

It sounds like @Zelandeth has been issued a Planning Contravention Notice.
https://etplanning.co.uk/what-is-a-planning-contravention-notice-pcn/

A standard and perfectly normal, if heavy handed in this instance, procedure when an enforcement team has been notified (usually by a neighbour) of a potential breach of planning regs, and needs more information.

The Council is obliged to investigate any alleged breaches of planning regulations that it is informed about. However, it's reflective of the state of things with Councils and funding that, for this particular sort of alleged breach, a PCN is considered to be more appropriate than an officer simply swinging past the site to have a chat with the homeowner about things.

In this instance, one 30-minute site visit, a quick peek inside the garage and any outbuildings for evidence of ramps, tools and other paraphernalia assocatied with intensive vehicle maintenance and repair (i.e. to the degree where @Zelandeth could attempt to earn an income), and photographs of the vehicles in question, all would quickly allow an experienced enforcement officer to arrive at a profressional opinion that, clearly, there is no evidence of business activity.

A PCN is a very simple, quick way for the Council to push the onus more onto the alleged contravenor with regards to evidencing what use is taking place at the property, without having to pay someone to visit the site etc.

With that in mind, as I mentioned above, answer the questions on the PCN honestly, do a thorough, photographic documentary of your entire property, all outbuildings, all storage areas, to show that you do not possess the tools or equipment required to operate a vehicle repair/maintenance business from your home address.

In the referred to by @BorniteIdentity, the issue was the sheer quantity of vehicles likely exceeded what was considered to be incidental to the residential use of the dwellinghouse. Simply put, if the land around/within the dwelling and its outbuildings was being used for storing vehicles and associated paraphernalia more than it was being used as a garden/driveway, it would dance more on the line of a storage use, than residential. It's a really grey area, though, and I'm not familiar with established caselaw on the matter (I'm sure it's dealt with on a case-by-case basis anyway).

[captain_70s]

3 hours ago, Dave_Q said:

 So it's not as simple as just proving you're not running a business.

When I was looking into legalities of fixing cars at the roadside when my neighbour asked if I had a license for "dealing cars" it became apparent that anything that a neighbour found to be a nuisance could well bring you within the crosshairs of the council - Regardless of being on private property or not.

[Sheefag]

6 hours ago, andy18s said:

The Mrs had an emergency wisdom tooth extraction last month.

Phoned the dentist to arrange it asap.

She got an appointment to go for a panoramic x-ray at 9am,with the actual procedure an hour later.

All sorted within 48hrs of the 1st call.

200 lev/ £45 was the total cost including her 1st lot of painkillers to follow on with. 

One of the benefits of Bulgarian life.

No ID card needed so you could fly over to Varna or Burgas for a week,get work done then fly back.

Sofia would be possible but more expensive all round.

I go to Poland, the service and care is excellent.

[High Jetter]

38 minutes ago, Sheefag said:

I go to Poland, the service and care is excellent.

Decent polish, too

[plasticvandan]

14 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

Give me strength...

Just had another letter from the Council.  Apparently they're under the impression that I have started operating a vehicle restoration or repair business out of my property, in contravention with the local planning regulations.  They are investigating the matter and invite me to provide evidence to prove that I am not in fact operating said business.  Um, how exactly am I supposed to provide evidence of NOT doing something?

Guess that's going to be a fun hour sitting on hold tomorrow trying to get through to speak to an actual person.

This is in addition to the planning enforcement notice received from them a few weeks ago about us having apparently built a fence on their land - despite every single set of plans I've had sight of (including from the land registry) clearly showing our boundary to butt up right against the footpath.  Still waiting for them to confirm the details on that one, though at least they have acknowledged they've received my initial response.

It'll be the Trabant that has tipped whoever it is over the edge,I used to have a neighbour ask if I could tell them if I was going to start mine so they could bring their washing in beforehand.

[beko1987]

Oil/diesel all over the road, especially when raining 😡

Driving home as usual, going through a village a van pulled out a bit close to me, so I braked to slow and was about to flash him and call him a twat when I felt the front wheels lock up, and feedback through the brake pedal. Odd. 

Dropped right back, music off, windows down incase I'd got a puncture somehow that I didn't notice doing 80 on the m40 2 minutes prior but all sounded fine. Then I smelt the air and it honked of derv, the road was shiny too. 

Carried in and at the next turning I needed I slowed right down (no one behind me), turned slowly and went to accelerate off and lost all traction on the front wheels, it felt like my puma when the clutch really went, but it was the tyres spinning. Mild panic set in then as I was on a very twisty road so carried on paranoid but the rainbow on the road eased off and all seemed fine after that. 

Got to go back that way in the morning, hope it pisses it down all night to wash it away

[rattlecan]

24 minutes ago, beko1987 said:

Oil/diesel all over the road, especially when raining 😡

Driving home as usual, going through a village a van pulled out a bit close to me, so I braked to slow and was about to flash him and call him a twat when I felt the front wheels lock up, and feedback through the brake pedal. Odd. 

Dropped right back, music off, windows down incase I'd got a puncture somehow that I didn't notice doing 80 on the m40 2 minutes prior but all sounded fine. Then I smelt the air and it honked of derv, the road was shiny too. 

Carried in and at the next turning I needed I slowed right down (no one behind me), turned slowly and went to accelerate off and lost all traction on the front wheels, it felt like my puma when the clutch really went, but it was the tyres spinning. Mild panic set in then as I was on a very twisty road so carried on paranoid but the rainbow on the road eased off and all seemed fine after that. 

Got to go back that way in the morning, hope it pisses it down all night to wash it away

Would have been a nice experience on a motorcycle (not) 🤦🏼‍♂️

[Spiny Norman]

I had that once in a BMW 5 series on a twisty B road. Tail out shenanigans at 20mph, it was hilarious