Zel's Motoring Adventures...Peugeot, Renault, Rover, Trabant, Invacar & A Sinclair C5 - 13/05 - Minor running issue to investigate...

[Zelandeth]

4 minutes ago, SiC said:

I've got a feeling that's normal? No expert but I thought they were to stop oil from the rockers running down the valve stem shaft and into the engine. I know you get top hat ones and they sit further down. 

@PhilA would be my go-to expert to ask on such matters!

Any leaking in the cylinder? (I.e. rings)

I presume the bore still looks good with no scoring?

Actually does make sense I guess given how the lubrication system in that area works...it just seems odd at first glance.

Cylinder doesn't look too bad.  Little tarnishing on the top of the bore about 3/4 up the stroke, but nothing drastic and no scoring of note.  I sprayed the area down with oil before I left it yesterday and where it had pooled in that cylinder it wasn't draining down any quicker than the other three.

[somewhatfoolish]

That exhaust v/v looks like an obvious culprit; a new valve and bosh it back together, no need to make work given the other compression readings were fine.

[PhilA]

Paraffin for leak down testing. Very low surface tension and will leak past any imperfections.

From memory the engine shouldn't have any stem seals, the machining was accurate enough and the stems aren't in a position to let oil pool and subsequently be drawn through. I believe there's an aftermarket kit that allows you to put seals on but I found I lost much more oil past the crank nose seal and past the rings than via the valves.

Those O rings are doing nothing and do not belong there, beside potentially breaking up and getting into the oil.

Check the valve stems for true, you never know who's been monkeying around in there over the years. For the price of new ones it may pay just to get a set of exhaust valves, they lead a very hard life. If that one's as pocked as it is, I'm guessing it's drawn something into the engine in the past that it shouldn't have. I ounce dropped a grub screw down the carburetor as the engine was running- luckily it came shooting out the exhaust pipe... don't make adjustments on a running engine, I guess.

 

Otherwise, looks good. None of the usual signs of trauma you see on these. Clean it up, slap it back together and enjoy.

 

Phil

[High Jetter]

10 hours ago, PhilA said:

From memory the engine shouldn't have any stem seals, the machining was accurate enough and the stems aren't in a position to let oil pool and subsequently be drawn through. I believe there's an aftermarket kit that allows you to put seals on but I found I lost much more oil past the crank nose seal and past the rings than via the valves.

I read that, and thought WTF but have since looked in the genuine parts catalogue and can't see any evidence of the seals.

However, Rimmers do list them (for the same part Nos valves as in the cat), for all P5 & P6 V8's - item 18 here: https://rimmerbros.com/Item--i-GRID800024

Part No. ERC 7865 doesn't show up in the numbers list at the back of the cat either, so may be the aftermarket kit you referred to.

[Zelandeth]

Rest of the valves are out.

1 Intake.

 

1 Exhaust.

 

3 Intake.

Couldn't help but notice the cup in the valve head is rather odd centre...3 and 7 are both like this, 1 and 5 aren't.

These valves also lack any numbers stamped into the stem, unlike the rest.

3 Exhaust.

Possible historical evidence of a dropped valve in the head by this valve seat?  Nothing on the piston, but I'm tending to think this is the old heads dropped on a far newer/rebuilt block based on my findings so far.

Including 5 for clarity even though you've already seen these.

5 Intake.

5 Exhaust.

 

7 Intake.

 

7 Exhaust.

The exhaust valves all have quite a bit of wear on them.  So I'm inclined to just replace them.  Also notable that the wear line on them all is really close to the lip, whereas I'd tend to expect it to be nearer the centre of the sealing face as on the intake valves.

I do note that exhaust valves are available in 33 or 34mm diameters... could someone have put 33mm valves in here when the head was set up for 34s?  

My calipers are of course in the garage and it's currently tipping it down outside sideways so I'm not inclined to go digging out the means to accurately measure the valves here right this minute.

[Zelandeth]

Valves measured and confirmed we have 40mm intakes and 34mm exhausts.

Which also matches the part numbers on them.  ERC9088 on the intakes, and ERC9089 on the exhausts.

Just buying a set.  I'm going to have to wait for them to turn up anyway, and it's just going to be less worry.  All the exhaust valves are quite badly pitted so need changing, and no reason to expect the other bank to be any different.  There's no point in changing 3/4 of the bits involved I reckon, may as well just do the lot.

Also just picked the Peugeot up from having the timing belt changed and the annoying whining noise tracked down.  Which turned out to be from the alternator.

Ouch.

Still, it's not making unpleasant noises any more and I now know the timing belt isn't 8 years old.  I don't care what the service schedule says...I don't trust a timing belt to last 10 years!

[Zelandeth]

Started stripping down the right hand head today - though literally got five minutes in when a flash of lightning and almost simultaneous crack of thunder aborted play.

Pretty much the same story as the left hand side, bit dirtier though and with the same evidence of it being sitting for a fair while with some moisture present.

Had a bit of a battle getting one of the bolts holding the alternator bracket onto the front of this head to crack loose, but got there in the end.  Hopefully get that head off tomorrow.

A full set of valves has been ordered - there goes another £200.  I really need to find a cheap hobby one day.

My target (assuming no horrors are found when I pull the second head) is to have the car back together by the end of the coming week.  Which if the valves arrive Tuesday or Wednesday should be doable I reckon.  I'll start getting the heads and block cleaned up while waiting for them to arrive.

Going to be fed up of lapping valves by the time I'm done, that's for sure.

With the possible exception of oil (will need to check what's in stock) I think once the valves arrive I should have everything here I need to finish the job now.  

Biggest surprise so far was finding that last time I used it that I did actually put the torque wrench back away on the shelf if lives on...nearly died of shock at finding that.

A coolant hose set will definitely be going on the wish list shortly as several are pretty tired, but that's going to have to wait a month or two or I'm going to end up living in the car I think.

[LightBulbFun]

funny you should post an update now, I was sitting in this thread about to post this

mum papped it just a few minutes ago, now one has been spotted locally  and someones clearly making good use of Ye Olde Historic ULEZ exemption  

[High Jetter]

5 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

Started stripping down the right hand head today - though literally got five minutes in when a flash of lightning and almost simultaneous crack of thunder aborted play.

Pretty much the same story as the left hand side, bit dirtier though and with the same evidence of it being sitting for a fair while with some moisture present.

Had a bit of a battle getting one of the bolts holding the alternator bracket onto the front of this head to crack loose, but got there in the end.  Hopefully get that head off tomorrow.

A full set of valves has been ordered - there goes another £200.  I really need to find a cheap hobby one day.

My target (assuming no horrors are found when I pull the second head) is to have the car back together by the end of the coming week.  Which if the valves arrive Tuesday or Wednesday should be doable I reckon.  I'll start getting the heads and block cleaned up while waiting for them to arrive.

Going to be fed up of lapping valves by the time I'm done, that's for sure.

With the possible exception of oil (will need to check what's in stock) I think once the valves arrive I should have everything here I need to finish the job now.  

Biggest surprise so far was finding that last time I used it that I did actually put the torque wrench back away on the shelf if lives on...nearly died of shock at finding that.

A coolant hose set will definitely be going on the wish list shortly as several are pretty tired, but that's going to have to wait a month or two or I'm going to end up living in the car I think.

Head all looks pretty clean.

[Zelandeth]

Second head is now off.

That was several orders of magnitude more awkward than the left hand one because a couple of fasteners were more difficult to get to.

The rear most exhaust manifold bolt in particular was an absolute joy...

From underneath with my hand wedged between the chassis rail and the starter motor was the only way I could get a tool onto it, undoing the thing 1/32 of a turn at a time.

Managed to find another problem which definitely wouldn't have been helping us.

Broken valve spring on no 1 intake.

*Submits yet another order for parts...*

I'll remove and inspect these valves later and report back anything of note, but I don't think you need to see closeups of another eight valves unless there's anything noteworthy - they're being replaced anyway.

[SiC]

That certainly makes it justified pulling that head.

The front piston is remarkably cleaner than the others... signs of HGF on that cylinder as it gets effectively steam blasted?

[beko1987]

Always nice when something is physically broken and suddenly the work is worth it even if that broken spring is additional to it's woes! 

[Zelandeth]

I can only assume that valve was being pushed shut by compression, or the spring was allowed to fall fully apart when the preload from the tappets was released, as it's totally floppy now.  However I didn't have a miss on that cylinder when I checked!

There's no visible signs of the head gasket being breached (on either side), but given the amount of moisture in the engine it certainly wouldn't surprise me.  Both coolant and oil levels were spot on when I got the car for all that means, and there was no sign of it pressurising the cooling system when running - though admittedly I've never subjected it to a sustained run under load yet.  That is of course right next to one of the coolant passages, so if one was going to ingest water that would be a likely candidate.

Glad I bought a full valve set now given that though it looks fine on a cursory inspection there's every chance that one has been whacked by a piston a bunch of times if it was hanging open.

[Zelandeth]

Apparently getting the P4 back here was timely.  The brake lights on the Peugeot have stopped working.  Switch is open circuit.  Turns out they probably haven't been working for some time given that part of the switch is actually missing and I've not found it in the footwell.

Obviously it's not going anywhere with no brake lights, hopefully new switch will be here tomorrow and will restore normality.  So the P4 has been back on daily duty today!

If I've not had any more interest in a sale from where I've currently got it advertised I'll just put up an add on Car and classic I reckon.  Means dealing with the nonsense which comes with the open market, but I've had very little interest so far and I need the room back.

Valves and the replacement valve spring for the P6 were both dispatched first thing this morning so hopefully should be here tomorrow.

[Zelandeth]

Yep, that spring has seen better days and definitely won't have been helping anything.

Judging from the wear on the side of the guide where it's been rubbing this has been an issue for a while.

Thankfully none of the damage is actually anywhere in contact with anything and the guide itself doesn't seem to have been compromised.  The valve actually does appear to be undamaged, but it's getting changed as I don't trust it.

Nothing really of note on any of the valves that came out of the second head, much as with the other side in that the exhaust valves are all quite tired.  The seats all look fine and just need to be cleaned/lapped in I reckon.

 

The issue with the non working brake lights on the Peugeot has been resolved.

The original switch was completely missing the plunger (and as that would generally result in the lights being stuck on, I assume other internal components), so was definitely dead.

Took all of five minutes to change, most of which was fine tuning the position of the plunger.  

Glad to have that sorted as it's needed for a work run to Telford (2 1/2 plus change each way if the traffic plays nice) tomorrow, and I suspect telling Abby she was going to have to take the P4 wouldn't have gone down at all well!

Be interesting to see how she finds it compared to the Caddy.

[PhilA]

Front pot has been seeing a slight weep from the front coolant passage, not unusual if the head isn't re-torqued after running the engine through a few heat cycles to let it settle.

Rest of it looks serviceable. Clean up, lap in and retest.

I find you cannot generally take these past about 6500rpm on stock internals- the valves begin to float and it limits itself naturally so looking at the failure I would say probably just a duff spring from the factory and it's chosen to fail.

With the valley gasket out the way, what the cam looks like? Rest of the engine is real clean inside which is a good sign.

Phil

[Zelandeth]

22 hours ago, PhilA said:

With the valley gasket out the way, what the cam looks like? Rest of the engine is real clean inside which is a good sign.

Phil

Difficult to photograph is the answer!

Basically looks near as makes no odds new.  As do the lifters. 

 

A package arrived this afternoon containing goodies for the P6.

Which meant that I got to spend several hours hunched up in a really awkward position lapping valves in - A job which with a workbench would simply have been tedious rather than tedious and exceptionally uncomfortable.

Nevertheless, we got there in the end.

Couple of darker spots on a couple of the seats (which the camera really seems to have made look worse), but they're all nice and smooth with no pitting I can detect.

Valves have now all been safely bagged up ready to be refitted, I just had them laid out there for the photo.

Next up was the first pass at cleaning things.

Any suggestions as to the best way to get shot of this - what I assume is utterly baked on residue of a previous head gasket (but not the one I just took off!)? 

I'm obviously not in a hurry to go to town with a scraper given how easy it would be to scratch the head with it being aluminium and I'd rather not make myself more problems to deal with.  You can't actually feel this with a fingertip, but it looks to me like it really should be removed, even if whoever put the last set of head gaskets in apparently didn't think so.  Pretty much every head I've had off myself before has been cast iron, so I'm probably being a little paranoid about damaging the mating surfaces on these.

If I had a local machine shop I had a working relationship with the best solution probably would be to get them to just re-face the heads, but I don't - and last time I wanted to get something like this done I got a gruff "We don't do car stuff" from the two I did try speaking to.

Looking a lot better than they were though.

If I could just get that crud to shift from the head surfaces I could start looking at getting things ready to go back together.  Weather however put paid to any plans for getting anything else done today as it's started raining.

[Christine]

Skimming at HeadlineMK   Milton keynes ?   Failing that , plate glass and wet n dry!

[Christine]

Skimming at HeadlineMK   Milton keynes ?   Failing that , plate glass and wet n dry!

 

Edit ..or if you have granite kitchen  worktop ...wait till everyone is asleep and..... figure of 8's  with Vim pumice powder .. no one will ever know

[MorrisItalSLX]

Rub down the mating surfaces with a whetstone, on the heads and the block.

[Zelandeth]

4 hours ago, Christine said:

Skimming at HeadlineMK   Milton keynes ?   Failing that , plate glass and wet n dry!

 

Edit ..or if you have granite kitchen  worktop ...wait till everyone is asleep and..... figure of 8's  with Vim pumice powder .. no one will ever know

Cheers, useful to have a pointer at a specific establishment.  More likely to be useful than going by just what Google throws up.  

We DO have granite worktops - but I know not to push my luck that far!  Rebuilding heads in the conservatory is already pushing my luck I think.

23 minutes ago, MorrisItalSLX said:

Rub down the mating surfaces with a whetstone, on the heads and the block.

Never would have thought of that.  Good call, pretty sure I even know where mine is, which for me and tools isn't normal!

[Zelandeth]

The heads have been dropped off with Headline MK to be cleaned, checked over and if needed skimmed. Seemed efficient, polite and a refreshingly old-school sort of place. Figure this just makes the most sense as it means that I know for sure that the heads are both properly flat before I put things back together, and they have far better equipment to check that than I do! If they're good, they'll also get the job of inspecting and doing any rework needed on the Renault's head when that comes off. Given the response I've had from a lot of so called professionals around here, getting an immediate cheerful "Yeah, that'll be no bother" was kind of refreshing.

Given I have suspicions about the quality of the workmanship when the heads were fitted last time (the gasket residue isn't from the gasket I've just removed!) Getting them checked to ensure they're actually flat just seemed a smart move.

Otherwise I've been running around like a headless chicken for 95% of the day today. Only thing I did was take ten minutes to see whether it's worth spending any time on cleaning the valve covers up a bit as they're quite oxidised in a fair few places. The before and after of a really quick skim over suggests that yes, the end result in the engine bay will be worth it and will make things look far less scruffy.

We don't need a blinding mirror like finish here, just looking tidy is sufficient.

I know some people don't like shiny stuff in engine bays...but it's the first car I've had with such things so the novelty hasn't worn off yet.  Not like I'm drowning the whole engine in chrome, it's just a couple of polished valve covers.

[Zelandeth]

New toy arrived in the post this morning.  Was suspiciously cheap on eBay so was half expecting it never to turn up, but it did and was still sealed new in the box with all the cables etc.

Which showed us to have two error codes.  Which I annoyingly failed to take full note of.  One was for an open circuit or ground fault to the intake throttle flap motor - expected as I unplugged it when initially poking around.  Second one was complaining about an implausible needle lift sensor signal.  That seems rather more plausible as our issue.  I'll pull the covers off and make sure we don't have a loose connection or something daft like that to the injecton loom shortly.

Cleared the codes then went for a half hour or so drive, and came back with none stored.

Ignore the ECM disabled message and P1570 - that's basically saying that the immobiliser is blocking the engine start, which always seems to happen when you plug a code reader in to this - cycling the ignition once after unplugging it returns normal service.  Does exactly the same with a Foxwell scanner.  

Possible the sensor was just being sticky I guess, car hadn't been driven in a couple of weeks, but it does have me looking slightly suspiciously at whichever injector has that built in on this engine - assuming 1 or 4.  I'm not about to go replacing them though given that this is about to be sold.  Potential fault will be disclosed and the new keeper can roll the dice on whether it comes back again, with the price adjusted accordingly.

 

Edit: 

I do believe that we have found where the water dripping onto the centre console in the P6 was coming from.

Lack of any rubber seals around the antenna and a disintegrated plastic spacer meaning there was zero tension on it I think would equal a leak.

Rather home made looking plastic grommet through the roof.

So that's going to be subject to some attention shortly.  The threads in the antenna base are stripped as well, so I may well replace the whole thing.

Did discover that apparently the underside of the gutters/door shuts apparently weren't cleaned up and painted along with the rest of the car.

Yeah, that will be wanting some attention sooner than later.

[PhilA]

Good choice on getting the heads surfaced. That's not flat enough to seal when hot. You don't want to really solely be relying on the fire rings like it looks to have been to seal up.

I have been known to put the stem on the valve in a power drill and get the surface even that way... forward, lift, backward, lift, clean off, redo...

Phil

[Zelandeth]

12 hours ago, PhilA said:

Good choice on getting the heads surfaced. That's not flat enough to seal when hot. You don't want to really solely be relying on the fire rings like it looks to have been to seal up.

I have been known to put the stem on the valve in a power drill and get the surface even that way... forward, lift, backward, lift, clean off, redo...

Phil

While the drill was looking mighty tempting by the time I was six or seven cylinders in, these weren't too bad to be honest.  

Just seemed the sensible thing to do getting the heads seen to professionally.  I'd rather not need to have the heads off again for a while.  I could no doubt have got things cleaner than they were but I'd always be questioning if they were actually flat.  

If they do a good job, based on the service I've had so far, nice to support a local engineering company too.  The head on the Renault will need to be checked once that comes off as well (as that has actually got a leak between the coolant and oil passages somewhere), so having them cued up for that will be useful.

Just want to start getting it back together now before I forget how everything came apart!

[Zelandeth]

Had a call early on this afternoon to say the P6's heads were ready for collection.

That looks a bit better.

Certainly a heck of a lot better than I was ever going to manage by hand.  £54 each after the VAT, which was a lot less than I had expected.  Seem to remember it cost me more than that last time I had a head skimmed, and that was 20 odd years ago.

They'll definitely be getting the job when I get the head pulled from the Renault then.

Hopefully will be able to start getting the P6 put back together tomorrow.

[High Jetter]

5 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

Had a call early on this afternoon to say the P6's heads were ready for collection.

That looks a bit better.

Certainly a heck of a lot better than I was ever going to manage by hand.  £54 each after the VAT, which was a lot less than I had expected.  Seem to remember it cost me more than that last time I had a head skimmed, and that was 20 odd years ago.

They'll definitely be getting the job when I get the head pulled from the Renault then.

Hopefully will be able to start getting the P6 put back together tomorrow.

Result. Give them a 5* review?

[Christine]

Good price !  I had a Cinq 900cc head done 15 years ago ,and that was 60 quid ,but they did it while i waited and watched , and had a head gasket set  chucked in with it .  I wonder how hard the cutters are,  and how high they can get the cutter ,as  i'd like an anvil refaced !  They must  be able to get an engine block under it to reface  those..but cast iron isn't as hard as an anvil . 

[Zelandeth]

13 minutes ago, Christine said:

Good price !  I had a Cinq 900cc head done 15 years ago ,and that was 60 quid ,but they did it while i waited and watched , and had a head gasket set  chucked in with it .  I wonder how hard the cutters are,  and how high they can get the cutter ,as  i'd like an anvil refaced !  They must  be able to get an engine block under it to reface  those..but cast iron isn't as hard as an anvil . 

I'll be heading back in the not too distant future so if you want me to ask I certainly can.

[beko1987]

10 hours ago, High Jetter said:

Result. Give them a 5* review?

He hasn't fitted them and checked their not on the wonk yet 🤣🤞