M5 crash

[504GL]

Yes, but having your space doesn't give you the right to drive straight at people!

 

I only picked that bit out because it was the bit I agreed with, not the whole driving at other people bit

[jnoiles]

i dont think you can totally blame lorry drivers, although id like to see them kept to the inner lane and maybe give haulage companies tax breaks to get the bulk of deliveries done in the early hours of the morning

 

That'd be nice. A positive way of dealing with the congestion and issues surrounding large vehicles on the public roads. That said, I don't find a lot of lorry drivers to be bad. The odd slow speed overtake but otherwise they're quite reasonable. At least on my commute from Jct 1 to 10 on the M1.

 

You can't drive along expecting death to leap up in front of you at any moment.

 

But you can and should because it can. Especially in something that's not a modern.

 

but unfortunately in lane 3 we have Mr Bill and Ben, the self employed removals men in their 15 year old LWB Transit doing a flat out 66mph because they need to get to the post office to cash their Giros. Both the Transit and coach could be in lane 1 but there's now no space for them and the traffic is now an accident looking for somewhere to happen.

 

This is the group I'd impose massive and ruthless penalties on. It is my experience that the single most dangerous group of motorists are van drivers. In my world vans would be restricted to the left lane on penalty of vehicle confiscation and destruction. With an added 12 points and 5 year ban thrown in for good measure. I reckon after about 2 weeks of this regime the roads would be clear of vans and the world would be a happier place.

[504GL]

i dont think you can totally blame lorry drivers, although id like to see them kept to the inner lane and maybe give haulage companies tax breaks to get the bulk of deliveries done in the early hours of the morning

 

That'd be nice. A positive way of dealing with the congestion and issues surrounding large vehicles on the public roads. That said, I don't find a lot of lorry drivers to be bad. The odd slow speed overtake but otherwise they're quite reasonable. At least on my commute from Jct 1 to 10 on the M1.

 

You can't drive along expecting death to leap up in front of you at any moment.

 

But you can and should because it can. Especially in something that's not a modern.

 

but unfortunately in lane 3 we have Mr Bill and Ben, the self employed removals men in their 15 year old LWB Transit doing a flat out 66mph because they need to get to the post office to cash their Giros. Both the Transit and coach could be in lane 1 but there's now no space for them and the traffic is now an accident looking for somewhere to happen.

 

This is the group I'd impose massive and ruthless penalties on. It is my experience that the single most dangerous group of motorists are van drivers. In my world vans would be restricted to the left lane on penalty of vehicle confiscation and destruction. With an added 12 points and 5 year ban thrown in for good measure. I reckon after about 2 weeks of this regime the roads would be clear of vans and the world would be a happier place.

 

Hi Jason! Didn't notice you actually posted on here.

 

I kind of agree that you should drive like death could leap out in front of you. I happily drive on the moors near here and I've had a few little moments in the 500 but I'm happy with the risk because it's my life and on the bit of road I'm on you can see other traffic and if I can't see other traffic I slow down a lot and corner a lot more sensibly. If anyone elses life is involved then I drive fairly saintly.

[Lankytim]

I think the point is if someone invades your space you have to back off, move over or do whatever to restore it. You can't try to influence other drivers behaviour by braking heavily, dabbing your brake pedal or tailgating as that nearly always diminishes your "safety area" even more and increases the chances of an accident. Its a massive pain in the ass and I freely admit that I don't always drive that way but being passively defensive is the best way to drive IMHO.

 

I'f i'm on the motorway and I find that everyone has started to bunch up and drive 5ft away from each other I move over to lane 1 and back off a bit to let the gaggle overtake and sort themselves out.

 

Sorry, bit of a thread drift. Condolences to everyone involved in this horrific event. It's a good thing that this type of event is very rare nowadays. Seemed to happen quite often "back in the day".

[504GL]

I think the point is if someone invades your space you have to back off, move over or do whatever to restore it. You can't try to influence other drivers behaviour by braking heavily, dabbing your brake pedal or tailgating as that nearly always diminishes your "safety area" even more and increases the chances of an accident. Its a massive pain in the ass and I freely admit that I don't always drive that way but being passively defensive is the best way to drive IMHO.

 

I'f i'm on the motorway and I find that everyone has started to bunch up and drive 5ft away from each other I move over to lane 1 and back off a bit to let the gaggle overtake and sort themselves out.

 

Sorry, bit of a thread drift. Condolences to everyone involved in this horrific event. It's a good thing that this type of event is very rare nowadays. Seemed to happen quite often "back in the day".

 

I don't actually tap the brakes so they actually activate, just so the brake light switch is activated. People usually get the idea and overtake or they drive past, motion that I'm a wanker and then go drive up someone elses butt. I will slow down as long as I've got enough space in front to brake if need be and give the idiot behind me the chance to react to my braking.

 

The problem in Britain is that everyone is so damn polite. Now I'm not suggesting that we start packing heat and follow offending drivers off the motorway and gun them down as they go onto the sliproad to leave the motorway. But if everyone "voiced" their opinions by doing something little like washing the windscreen of the car behind with their washers or a gentle activation of their brake lights then people would get the idea.

 

Yes sometimes backing off or pulling over is the idea, but not always. Always annoys me when you're on a 3 lane motorway overtaking at the speed limit or above and someone comes up behind and just expects you to dive into a small gap and become a tailgater myself and turn the car behind into a tailgater too.

 

At the end of the day they can't drive around me so I just get past the traffic and pull in when it's safe for me to do so.

[fiatdaft]

It works on the autobhan ,including the restricted parts,faster cars leap frogging the slower traffic that pulls in,the german and dutch motorways also seem to move faster when the larger vehicles are restricted in lane use during certain times of the day.

[504GL]

It works on the autobhan ,including the restricted parts,the german and dutch motorways also seem to move faster when the larger vehicles are restricted in lane use during certain times of the day.

 

Of course, but with the poor standards of driving in the UK the amount of trucks which are going to be held up by Fred and Bethel who are driving at 40 "because driving slower is safer innit" will be crazy. I think the road rules in the UK need a good rethink all round tbh.

[dollywobbler]

Must admit, don't know if it's the OMG FUEL PRICES KAOS but you see an awful lot of cars bimbling around at 50mph, and therefore getting in the way of the trucks. Have I dreamt that or do the truckers here agree?

 

You can try and kid yourself that you drive like death is around every corner, but the truth is that you can't do it. You will change radio station, change CD, slap your kid for asking 'are we there yet,' check out totty, check out rusty ol' shite parked down a driveway, look at a rainbow, scratch your arse, check your speedo, wonder where the hell that bloody rattle is coming from. No-one can maintain 100% concentration all of the time, not even Sebastian Loeb (though he is franky incredible).

 

Growing up in Birmingham though, I do expect the unexpected on the roads.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

IKEA 'EKTORP' CHAISE LONGUE, JUST £199

 

http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/S99873814/

[Albert Ross]

For the sake of Mr Fuck, can we please consider the amount of people affected by this incident? ( I refuse to use the word "accident" in this scenario) for the sake of their families? There are good and bad drivers. A good driver would have slowed down when they saw the fog, and pulled off the motorway. Easy to do in this instance. What cost life to book into a Travelodge...?

[dollywobbler]

For the sake of Mr Fuck, can we please consider the amount of people affected by this incident? ( I refuse to use the word "accident" in this scenario) for the sake of their families? There are good and bad drivers. A good driver would have slowed down when they saw the fog, and pulled off the motorway. Easy to do in this instance. What cost life to book into a Travelodge...?

 

I think actually people are all too aware of the tragedy, and it's been mentioned time and again. And sorry, but how many of us would actually stop for a bit of fog? How do you judge whether it's bad enough to actually stop? How many travelodges could cope if EVERYONE stopped for a bit of bad weather? It looks like sudden fog (which does happen) allied to bad driving equals horrific. Think it's not that unusual for it to be discussed on a motoring forum really.

[warren t claim]

Indeed.

[504GL]

For the sake of Mr Fuck, can we please consider the amount of people affected by this incident? ( I refuse to use the word "accident" in this scenario) for the sake of their families? There are good and bad drivers. A good driver would have slowed down when they saw the fog, and pulled off the motorway. Easy to do in this instance. What cost life to book into a Travelodge...?

 

I think actually people are all too aware of the tragedy, and it's been mentioned time and again. And sorry, but how many of us would actually stop for a bit of fog? How do you judge whether it's bad enough to actually stop? How many travelodges could cope if EVERYONE stopped for a bit of bad weather? It looks like sudden fog (which does happen) allied to bad driving equals horrific. Think it's not that unusual for it to be discussed on a motoring forum really.

You don't necessarily need to stop. Just slow down to a speed where any possible pileup will be a really low speed one.

 

I respectfully disagree Albert, it's moments like these were you need to stand back and have a think about how we all drive. That people have said that they're a little worried about slowing down in fog says it all. If everyone is worried about that twat coming up from behind it only takes one person doing the right thing to turn you into that idiot who hits the person in front and starts the pileup.

[Albert Ross]

Right. If you had just got into your car, you would have seen the fog. Had you been driving 372 hours on the trot, would that have made you tired and incapable of conducting a motor vehicle on the public highway. I guess the two visible Iceland truck "Drivers" were travelling in close convoy, (was there a third???)) judging by vehicle positioning. That partiular slipway, and others like it, have visibility issues, so one drives accordingly. If you can't see, you drive with caution. That counts for forwards visibility and rearwards visibility. So. you wankers that think "jamming your brakes on" or indeed "squirting your washers" is going to stop a tailgater, can fuck right off. It doesn't. It earns a tap up the rear.

[504GL]

Right. If you had just got into your car, you would have seen the fog. Had you been driving 372 hours on the trot, would that have made you tired and incapable of conducting a motor vehicle on the public highway. I guess the two visible Iceland truck "Drivers" were travelling in close convoy, (was there a third???)) judging by vehicle positioning. That partiular slipway, and others like it, have visibility issues, so one drives accordingly. If you can't see, you drive with caution. That counts for forwards visibility and rearwards visibility. So. you wankers that think "jamming your brakes on" or indeed "squirting your washers" is going to stop a tailgater, can fuck right off. It doesn't. It earns a tap up the rear.

 

It does? I've squirted my washers (in the day when visibility is good and road conditions good also) and never had a tap up the rear?

 

Of course if I can't see I drive with care, I'm not a lemming, I don't simply drive into a space and hope that there's nothing in that space. Anyone who admits to doing that is a plonker.

[Albert Ross]

I was travelling Southbound on the day of the Kegworth Air Crash. From Glasgow to Swindon. I stopped at Lockerbie to basically stand in ABSOLUTELY IMMENSE AWE at the situation. i was joined by MANY, MANY, others. I opted to drive via Bristol having picked up a Chef Hitch-Hiker in Carlisle. He saved my life. I was due to visit ( a sort of open invitation) a friend in Leicester, but cried off due to the hitch-hiker. So I have experience of Motorway pile-ups. Also, my mother was about 20 minutes behind the M4 crash.... But a reasonably uninvolved escapee. (except for the tailbacks.)

[M'coli]

^^^ And surely that demonstrates the element of luck, good or bad , that dictates the involovement of those who are innocent of any crime whatsoever? As many victims of these terrible accidents are passengers.

[HillmanImp]

What are the chances of that? I am actually buying an Ikea Ektorp sofa today. Mines a brown leather 2 seater though.

[ashmicro]

Speaking of furniture, does anyone know how to get Pot Noodle gravy off a leather sofa? Or indeed, out of a BlackBerry?

[Tayne]

Speaking of furniture, does anyone know how to get Pot Noodle gravy off a leather sofa? Or indeed, out of a BlackBerry?

 

I'd start with sparkling water on the sofa.

Can't help you with the blackberry.

[Lankytim]

Wetwipes every time, work on anything! I often wonder how I coped before those...

 

Anyway, "only" 7 dead in the M5 pile up, which is good, as they were expecting to find more bodies in the burnt out cars.

[gtd2000]

I've driven in numerous parts of the world - places with absolutely shocking drivers include Israel and Tampa Bay in Florida.

 

The standard of driving in the UK has gone downhill severely in the past 20 years - I'm not in the least bit surprised to hear of this accident and the ramifications.

 

The last time I was on the M5 would have been in 2010 when I was working in Newport (Wales) and remember very clearly going down to Weston when it was raining and it appeared that every fucking muppet in the land with a driving license was heading South in the pissing rain - all virtually bumper to bumper! It was incredulous considering the weather conditions.

 

Right now, I'm over in Florida for the winter and I can still remember driving along the I4 at 100MPH and being over-taken by a truck - yes an articulated truck or "semi" as they call them over here! Trucks regularly travel at speeds around 80MPH and it's not unusual at all - I'm not sure what the statistics are for articulated truck fatalities in the US vs the UK but you see a hell of a lot of fast truckers but not too many highway infernos that I can think of?

 

21 years ago - I was leaving the army and the most expensive course they could put you on was HGV 1 training. I decided I might as well take the most expensive option and was sent off to Basildon to looked after by dear old Joan & Len (they took ex-military lodgers in while attending the course) while I navigated my way around Essex.

 

Most of the time we were parked up at some bacon roll joint or cafe sipping cups of tea and it was a nice change of pace to be honest.

 

One afternoon I was heading down the A127 in the truck and a few hundred metres or so ahead was a newly constructed (Shell?) service station, some muppet in a white Ford Escort thought he'd pull in... but at the last minute realised the premises were not yet open for business.... of course he didn't think to look in his mirror and just came right back onto the A127 about an inch from the front of the truck. Assuming I was about to kill the occupants of the Ford Escort, I slammed the brakes on...yes air brakes applied rapidly mean instant lock up and the truck started to jack-knife.... A rising plume of smoke in the rear view mirrors alerted me to the rear end coming out into the right hand lane and I came off the brakes straight away - my thoughts at that time were basically "the arseholes in the Escort are going to be the ones dying, not me or anybody else...". Luckily we managed to avoid the Escort - who may well be oblivious to this day!

 

By pure luck the right hand lane was clear - I wouldn't like to think what could have happened to any cars when the trailer slid right across the road...

 

The whole time, I didn't flap in the least to be honest - the look on the instructors face was a peach and he was extremely impressed how I handled the situation. He had feared the worst and was quite visibly shaken.

 

After passing my test I took a few driving jobs via an agency in Edinburgh before going back to University. Even in 1990 the roads were a frigging nightmare and most of the jobs I was offered were day time multi-drop affairs in various towns and cities - I went home most evenings with a thumping headache due to the hassle of driving (and I'm not a stressed person at all actually!)

 

It turned out I could earn 50p less per hour for driving a Transit van for White Arrow - that was just the ticket for me - fuck that HGV driving bollocks

 

In summary you see idiots more frequently on the roads than in the past - I think everybody should be made to ride a motorcycle (or perhaps a light car made or paper mache ) in order to understand just how vulnerable you are on the roads and in turn give more respect to other road users.

 

Accidents are preventable - it just takes one clueless fucking arsehole to spoil it for everybody.

[eddyramrod]

In summary you see idiots more frequently on the roads than in the past - I think everybody should be made to ride a motorcycle (or perhaps a light car made or paper mache ) in order to understand just how vulnerable you are on the roads and in turn give some respect to other road users.

 

Accidents are preventable - it just takes one clueless fucking arsehole to spoil it for everybody.

 

(EFA) Agreed!

 

And a note on earnings: in 2004 I discovered that if I went from Class 2 day-work at which I was highly-experienced and holder of an expensive licence subject to regular renewals, to care work for which I held neither qualifications nor experience, I could earn at least a pound an hour more. So I did, obviously. If you ever thought carers were undervalued, try truck driving...

[Cavcraft]

I think it's long been a problem for truck drivers. Circa 1990 I went for an assessment lesson in an HGV, didn't do especially well and asked the instructor how much it was going to cost. It worked out at around a grand I think (lessons, test etc) with no guarantee that I'd pass.

One of the in-laws was a Class 1 driver at the time and had just been laid off, he applied for work elsewhere and ended up at an interview where they wanted three written tests and a driven one and the money was shit.

I worked out I was better off sticking at commercial tyre fitting because the money and the hours were better plus I'd be home everynight.

 

I admire truck drivers if truth be told: they do a blooming long day, often spend most of the week away from home, get grief wherever they go and often do a dangerous job for not much money. Yeah, it's annoying when they're overtaking each other at .5mph faster than the other but every few seconds saved for them can mean they get home much quicker or get parked up for the night. I'd challenge anyone driving a vehicle with a limiter to sit behind everything else on the road and not try and get past. Trust me it's almost impossible.

[morris_ital_lover]

Plus one on that, I have never driven a truck and would never willingly become a trucker due to the long anti social hours being being vut up by bellends on the motorways.

 

Back to the crash, it does particuarly look like the truckers were too blame from the photos as the trucks weren't the first vehicles to go. According to one eye witness the trucks gave the people in the first wave a barrier between them and the oncoming cars. It does look like a case of the perfect storm with this crash, apparently one of the trucks was carrying propane cylinders and looking at the pictures in the papers it is probably the one where the cab has disintegrated to such an extent that it isn't visible.

 

As for the cause I think too much is being put solely on the rugby clubs door ATM, they did have a fireworks display but the Daily Mail (twas free) showed an aerial picture and there was the remains of a bonfire much closer to the crash site in one of the fields. It was a fairly silly thing to have let happen... I wonder why the so called fireworks professionals that organised it allowed it to go ahead?!

[Espacetic]

Who agreed that they could hold the event is being looked into at the moment and the rugby club is sealed up for the time being. They did ask a few years ago for a display there and the expert refused to do it due to the close proximity to the M5. The pics available really distort just how close the rugby club actually is to the M5.

It was a damp night here, but the rain had stopped and visibility was pretty good apart from the spray you would expect on the motorway after rain. I just don't think anyone expected to drive in clear visibility and suddenly not be able to see a thing due to the smoke across the carriageway. The HGV's were mostly at the front of the crash so I can't see how there can be any finger pointing in their direction. I think it's too early to say and we may never know if a car exiting the slip road had any bearing on things. All I can say is that this has devastated our community, there has been and still is a huge feeling of sadness in the town.

[retrogeezer]

Are you guys kidding?? There are 6 HGV's involved here and 28 cars. The photos show 2 HGV's near the front that both have frontal damage from hitting cars, then a completely jacknifed HGV with 3 more HGV's that have basically run into the back of each other and the 10 or more cars that are completely destroyed and no longer visible.

 

 

 

[dollywobbler]

So six trucks and 28 cars all failed to avoid what was, it seems, a bit of a melee in zero visibility and it's the truck drivers' fault? I don't see how you can say that given that all we've got is witness statements and a few pictures. We're hardly best placed to be collision investigators here. The trucks might be at fault, but I don't feel I can really say one way or the other.

[504GL]

So six trucks and 28 cars all failed to avoid what was, it seems, a bit of a melee in zero visibility and it's the truck drivers' fault? I don't see how you can say that given that all we've got is witness statements and a few pictures. We're hardly best placed to be collision investigators here. The trucks might be at fault, but I don't feel I can really say one way or the other.

 

Agreed. I'd like to see more statements come out as to what actually happened and give the investigators a chance to look into things before we assign blame.

[Volksy]

Purely hypothetical from the pictures above, I'd say that the start of the accident would probably lie with an altercation between the Galaxy and the black 4x4, given the 'head of the queue positioning of the cars, the front end damage on the galaxy (probably hitting the rear of the 4x4),the galaxy may have been sideswiped by the J.B. Wheaton truck, hence the damage to the OSF of the wagon, although this could have easily been caused by the truck striking the silver hatch (behind the Galaxy) as the hatch probably took avoidance action from lane 2 into lane 1. This was then struck by the Iceland lorry taking avoidance from lane 1 into lane 2. However given the severity of the damage to the black 4x4, this may have been rear ended by the silver golf in lane 3 also.

However there may be other vehicles out of shot, which carried on and pulled on to the hard shoulder.

Between these primary six vehicles, the entire carriageway is then blocked, so coupled with lower visibility and possible fog/smoke, the resulting carnage is sadly inevitable.

 

As to whether the trucker are at fault, I'd say not at all, the J.B Wheaton truck is stopped in lane and straight, and the Iceland truck although having taken obvious avoidance action is again stopped 'straight' (not jack knifed).

 

All purely hypothetical.