Man maths reassurance required... Or is sense kicking in?

[Lanciaman]

I have a late 2007 Subaru Outback 3.0.

The thing costs £700 to tax and is averaging 27 mpg on the trip computer, primarily cos of driving like Miss Daisy...  Its beginning to piss me off. Love the car but... 

I've justified 3.0 Subarus  over the years as they don't go wrong as a general rule and are reliable as it gets. So the tax and fuel is offset by not having to throw parts at it every 2 weeks. 

However, I'm waivering....  I see £35 a year road tax and 50mpgeees. 

I also see diesel  injector faults, turbo faults, dpf faults, dual mass flywheels, £1200 clutch jobs...  In fact part of my head says a diesel of 10 years old is just bad news and will be in the garage every month for something or other so suck up the inescapable  outback costs. 

But I'm still waivering. It's the tax that pisses me off the most.  I do 8k miles a year in it.  Mr bluemotion golf can do 50k a year and pay hee haw tax. 

Some reassurance to stay away from diesels would be good.  You can lie,  I just need the man maths argument reinforced! 

I also have a 3.0 Toyota alphard so sense is lacking. 

 

[EyesWeldedShut]

I sold my  2.5 n/a petrol 2010 Outback two years ago as it was going mouldy sitting around doing nothing during/after lockdowns.
Really miss it and it's one of two sales (ever) that I regret - even if the CVT had the stalling out niggle. Nice drive, built well, beauty of an engine (just don't mention changing the spark plugs in situ). I was getting 28.5 mpg out of that.
My man math would be that if you know the car then factor in the 8,000 miles against your £700 tax - so that's 8.8p a mile.

http://www.fuel-economy.co.uk/calc.html says that 8000 miles @ 27 mpg @ 156.9 pence/litre is £2113 a year - so half that for a 54 mpg diesel.  Let's say you get a £0 tax diesel.
Add in the tax difference then you could save £1,756 in fuel/tax costs - £150 a month (ish).

You'd need to balance that up against (1) your disposable income (2) the chances of selling your Subaru and getting another car that's just as good (3) you'd not be driving the Outback  

Unless I were totally brassic I'd hang onto the Outback - better the devil you know?

 

 

[Jazoli]

Get a modern with a small turbo'd petrol engine if you want cheap tax and good economy, or a hybrid Toyota or Lexus if you are worried about reliability.

Or buy a diesel and have the £2k you save in fuel as a contingency, they aren't all unreliable.

I couldn't stomach 700 quid a year for an old bus like a legacy if I'm being honest but if your budget doesn't stretch to an efficient modern then I can see why you stick with it.

I get the equivalent of around 80mpg using my Volt with a mixture of petrol and electric, its free to tax and is still a decent sized car and not some econobox, I also got sick of paying high tax and getting low mpgs in older larger engined cars.

[loserone]

I had a 3.0 legacy spec B.  It wasn't slow, but it was thirstier than it's performance justified, didn't handle all that well, had numb steering and was inevitably going to rot away.  Mine was cheap to tax.  When you do need to throw parts at it they're expensive and sometimes difficult to source.  

 

I liked the interior a lot.  But our Duster is a better driver's car.  I would say that of course, because I own a Duster, and it's not a fair comparison as it was 22k.  I also own a 182 which is similarly quick as the Spec B but averages 42-45MPG ragging the tits off it everywhere.  Not much in the way of load space though, or winter snow performance.

 

I admire your persistence.  But I gave up long ago and don't regret it a bit.

[Agila]

I'm similar, 2006 lexus rx350 but with even fewer mpg.

I don't suppose we'll have buyers lined up so I just enjoy it rather than face selling for peanuts.

Plus the Mrs likes it. If the road rent gets over a grand then it will definitely go.

[loserone]

10 minutes ago, Jazoli said:

Lexus if you are worried about reliability.

The more I think about @davehedgehog31's GS, the more I think this is a great idea.

[beko1987]

I did the same once. My beautiful 2.0 auto petrol XM would do 26mpg if I drove it like a nun. Which got really fucking boring, and I used to avoid driving about because we just couldn't afford it. 

Sopd it and got a veg friendly ZX, it lasted forever on fuel in comparison! 

I guess the choice is easier when the cars are worth (were worth) sub £700...

[Lanciaman]

Thing is, out of principal, and being a miserable bastard, I refuse to spunk 5 figures on a modern. Albeit when you take 700 quid road tax over 5 years, that would buy a minimal tax Megane 1.6 dci for instance.  That's the sobering part.... 

I also refuse to get a loan or do finance.    Thus can't afford new enough to be under warranty and anything not is just a damn liability.  So might as well go older. 

Or quit moaning and just cough up.  I guess it's 54 quid a month tax. It ain't 500 quid a month pcp.... 

 

 

 

[straightSix]

I was in the exact same boat, spec B with the pants down tax. Got it mid 2019 so only ended up doing about 3k miles for that £600. Whereas my manager paid no tax to do 30k a year in his diesel Kia. 

Think I sold it for a TVR Chimaera which wasn't exactly sensible either but then went all boring with a diesel Civic and hated every second

Not sure what the moral of any of that is tbh 

[Split_Pin]

If you don't like the car enough then the high tax and poor fuel economy will grate. I think you are right to consider a change.

My petrol auto Saab 93 is in the £600 - odd a year tax bracket, or a £53 per month boot in the baws if you prefer. It also averages about 27mpg but would improve if I lightened my right foot a touch....

I still really like the car though so the running costs have never bothered me. I did think of changing it just because I fancied it but nothing else measured up so I still have it.

I only have a diesel 75 because the engine is very reliable compared to the petrol versions. MPG is only mid 40s at very best and for some reason insurance companies think they must be dangerous as they're not that cheap on that side of things.

As said there are lots of alternatives.

[RoverFolkUs]

I'll chime in with my perspective if it helps, I'm always one for "better the devil you know" so when people suggest changing their car purely due to running costs, and buying a completely unknown vehicle to do so, I can't help but think there's a risk it might prove to be a slight false economy. 

If you're losing love for the car, and/or it's starting to get tired and in need of a lot of work, then I agree with the man maths that suggest it might be time for a change. 

Personally I don't really like Subaru's (!) so couldn't fathom paying that sort of money to run one, however if you like it and it's a trusted vehicle then I'd say keep it, but if you're itching for a change for more reasons than the cost of VED and fuel then it seems to make sense to take the plunge!

[Rocket88]

12 hours ago, Lanciaman said:

I have a late 2007 Subaru Outback 3.0.

The thing costs £700 to tax and is averaging 27 mpg on the trip computer, primarily cos of driving like Miss Daisy...  Its beginning to piss me off. Love the car but... 

I've justified 3.0 Subarus  over the years as they don't go wrong as a general rule and are reliable as it gets. So the tax and fuel is offset by not having to throw parts at it every 2 weeks. 

However, I'm waivering....  I see £35 a year road tax and 50mpgeees. 

I also see diesel  injector faults, turbo faults, dpf faults, dual mass flywheels, £1200 clutch jobs...  In fact part of my head says a diesel of 10 years old is just bad news and will be in the garage every month for something or other so suck up the inescapable  outback costs. 

But I'm still waivering. It's the tax that pisses me off the most.  I do 8k miles a year in it.  Mr bluemotion golf can do 50k a year and pay hee haw tax. 

Some reassurance to stay away from diesels would be good.  You can lie,  I just need the man maths argument reinforced! 

I also have a 3.0 Toyota alphard so sense is lacking. 

 

Get this or this from me…. Both at 50 mpg, and both very cheap

[grogee]

12 hours ago, Lanciaman said:

I have a late 2007 Subaru Outback 3.0.

The thing costs £700 to tax and is averaging 27 mpg on the trip computer, primarily cos of driving like Miss Daisy...  Its beginning to piss me off. Love the car but... 

I've justified 3.0 Subarus  over the years as they don't go wrong as a general rule and are reliable as it gets. So the tax and fuel is offset by not having to throw parts at it every 2 weeks. 

However, I'm waivering....  I see £35 a year road tax and 50mpgeees. 

I also see diesel  injector faults, turbo faults, dpf faults, dual mass flywheels, £1200 clutch jobs...  In fact part of my head says a diesel of 10 years old is just bad news and will be in the garage every month for something or other so suck up the inescapable  outback costs. 

But I'm still waivering. It's the tax that pisses me off the most.  I do 8k miles a year in it.  Mr bluemotion golf can do 50k a year and pay hee haw tax. 

Some reassurance to stay away from diesels would be good.  You can lie,  I just need the man maths argument reinforced! 

I also have a 3.0 Toyota alphard so sense is lacking. 

 

How much spannering do you do yourself? That will swing the equation, if you can fix faults on a diesel. 

I've currently got an old BMW 525i (thankfully pre-anal reaming tax band) but I can see a Mondeo diesel in my future for the reasons you suggest. 

If you did swap to the dark pump, Shirley the Toyota ticks the 'big juicy petrol' box on days when you feel like spunking £100 on fuel? 

[Supernaut]

Surely man maths means you just look at your bank account at the end of each month and as long as the balance is above zero you're fine?

 

Anyway, in my opinion (others may vary) high liability modern diesels with DPFs and EGRs and all the other expensive to repair acronyms aren't the way forwards. Small petrols are.

A mate has a VW Up and it's averaging 55mpg on petrol with him driving it everywhere flat out. I've had a go of it and VW really did their homework. It has road manners befitting a much bigger car, and very little road noise.

Hell, my Clio RSi is averaging mid-40s with me ragging it everywhere too.

 

I'd say give a wee hatchback a try, they aren't all penalty boxes (though some are).

The one sticking point is the price of something like an Up in the current market. My mate bought his 65 reg pre-covid for £5.5k and after 3 odd years of use it's just ticked over 60k miles. £5k now gets you an older and higher mileage example. He says he had the dealer he bought it from already offering him more than he paid for it...

[Bren]

I have had my BMW 545 for five years. It has been reliable however I have had to spend - I have not added things up but I reckon I have spent over £2k on repairs - the valve stems seals account for just over a grand.

Tax is £395 per year and car does 22mpg around the doors. For a car approaching it's twentieth year it is in superb condition.

I have just relisted it on ebay - not had a sniff. I decided it was time to go because better to sell while everything was good. It's N62 engine is a complicated beast - you will be lucky to find anybody willing to work on it. Also, I don't do many miles but seem to be regularly putting fuel in it ( maybe I should just fill it up!).

The thought of borrowing for a car - finance - terrifies me. I fancied a mustang or jaguar xfr but with the cost of things generally that will never happen now. So if somebody does buy my car I will more than likely replace it with something diesel.

 

[w00dy]

Having had 3  diesel dailies find their way to the scrap man with modern diesel issues, I've decided to go back to petrol and have an Insignia 2.0 turbo which is £320 to tax and does about 35 on average, time will tell if that's a good decision, but 6 months and 6k miles in it's working well so far. I would happily go diesel if there were better cars at throw away money, but for something that's been looked after wit decent life in it now then you're spending the sort of money where a big bill has to be swallowed.  

 

[sierraman]

13 hours ago, Lanciaman said:

I have a late 2007 Subaru Outback 3.0.

The thing costs £700 to tax and is averaging 27 mpg on the trip computer, primarily cos of driving like Miss Daisy...  Its beginning to piss me off. Love the car but... 

I've justified 3.0 Subarus  over the years as they don't go wrong as a general rule and are reliable as it gets. So the tax and fuel is offset by not having to throw parts at it every 2 weeks. 

However, I'm waivering....  I see £35 a year road tax and 50mpgeees. 

I also see diesel  injector faults, turbo faults, dpf faults, dual mass flywheels, £1200 clutch jobs...  In fact part of my head says a diesel of 10 years old is just bad news and will be in the garage every month for something or other so suck up the inescapable  outback costs. 

But I'm still waivering. It's the tax that pisses me off the most.  I do 8k miles a year in it.  Mr bluemotion golf can do 50k a year and pay hee haw tax. 

Some reassurance to stay away from diesels would be good.  You can lie,  I just need the man maths argument reinforced! 

I also have a 3.0 Toyota alphard so sense is lacking. 

 

Not every 10 year old diesel is a money pit, if they’re looked after over and above the service schedule they can be ok. It is probable it might throw you a big bill up via something like the DMF but this is life. I figure the secret is using good oil, change it regularly, keep the EGR clean, do a regular long run, don’t use supermarket diesel and it will probably be ok. 
 

There are some absolute dogs out there though that won’t have been serviced but avoid them and you will probably be ok. 

[Wgl2019]

45 minutes ago, Supernaut said:

VW Up

Agree.... I changed my Saab 9-5 Aero for an Up! partly as I fancied a change and as I thought it would be good to reset my benchmark for size and performance. It's perfectly adequate for most tasks especially as the majority of my driving is the daily commute. Did a few 200 mile trips which were OK but not really what it is best at. £20 tax and around 55mpg, servicing is easy DIY and costs buttons. These are popular for new drivers so need to be a little bit wary of prev write offs!

[Six-cylinder]

Are you enjoying having the Subaru as your daily drive, is the tax stopping you paying the mortgage or putting food on the table?

If you like it the way things are continue, if not change things.

Me I would keep the Subaru and add a small runabout to the fleet, but we all know  how that has got out of control!

[vulgalour]

What price happiness?

Sure you could save money getting something more sensible* but at what cost?

[N Dentressangle]

I couldn't live with any more than the £325 you pay for big engined old stuff. That's about my limit.

There's no way I'd pay £6-700 for car tax. I don't do enough miles to feel I've had any sort of value, and there's plenty of fun stuff about that costs a lot less. I'm used to buying the whole car for £700, and my usual buying limit is £1500ish, so half the car's value in tax every year just doesn't stack up.

[ETCHY]

Personally if i like a car & it doesn't bankrupt me running it,  i keep it.

I'd rather have something reliable that i like that's a bit pricey to run, than an economical, unknown.

Unreliable cars are soul destroying money pits & if you don't like a car it's awful & then hassle having to find something else. The worry of potentially bringing that into my life would bother me. 

I am however risk averse !

[Lanciaman]

1 hour ago, Six-cylinder said:

Are you enjoying having the Subaru as your daily drive, is the tax stopping you paying the mortgage or putting food on the table?

If you like it the way things are continue, if not change things.

Me I would keep the Subaru and add a small runabout to the fleet, but we all know  how that has got out of control!

Been mulling that over but doesn't get away from taxing the fucker.... 

[Lanciaman]

2 hours ago, sierraman said:

Not every 10 year old diesel is a money pit, if they’re looked after over and above the service schedule they can be ok. It is probable it might throw you a big bill up via something like the DMF but this is life. I figure the secret is using good oil, change it regularly, keep the EGR clean, do a regular long run, don’t use supermarket diesel and it will probably be ok. 
 

There are some absolute dogs out there though that won’t have been serviced but avoid them and you will probably be ok. 

Its not so much me... As buying something which has supposedly been serviced... And may have been but with oil changes as per manufacturers 18000 miles or 2 years. No no no.   Daughter has a kadjar 1.6 dci with 18k oil changes but she is forced by me to get it done every 8k.   

I do like the outback, it's in brill condition,  undersealed annually.  It's not bankrupting me but just going through an even more than usual miserable bastard phase. 

[Split_Pin]

Small cars don't suit me at all, I hate the things. My brothers girlfriend has an Up! and when they gave my wife and I a lift I did find the rear legroom and space to be very impressive. But just no. 

However I'd make an exception for something sporty like a Fiat 500 595 or an MX5. If you already have a big car then something small and sporty could still give you more reasonable MPG and tax but provide lots of fun.

[motorpunk]

How many miles a year are you doing? Apologies if I missed that, but surely that's the first question to ask. 10MPG doesn't matter if you're doing 3k miles a year, for example. And do you have a plan B if/when your banger is off the road? Bus to work? Local shops? If so, stick with what you've got. 

I'm with you on not wanting to spend five figures on a boring daily. I appreciate some people need to, but they depreciate, cost money to run, and it's just 'transport', right? 

FWIW - A mate does 20k a year in an Up GTi, it's lost nothing in value, is peanuts to run, and is a nice thing to thrap about in. Some sound deadening makes it a good motorway car, too, with 6 gears and 5 doors, it's quite practical. I love the Abarth but they'd do your head in for more than a couple of hours on a motorway.

Oh, and rust. Rust is going to kill you in the end, right? I have no answer for that,

[Rocket88]

2 hours ago, ETCHY said:

Personally if i like a car & it doesn't bankrupt me running it,  i keep it.

I'd rather have something reliable that i like that's a bit pricey to run, than an economical, unknown.

Unreliable cars are soul destroying money pits & if you don't like a car it's awful & then hassle having to find something else. The worry of potentially bringing that into my life would bother me. 

I am however risk averse !

 

[Bren]

The other consideration is how much you have to spend. Do you have enough money to buy something significantly better than what you have?

My car has a start of £2.5k with no reserve.

I cannot find anything similar with that mileage and nine months MOT for the same money.

£2.5 K is something leggy that needs money spending in it.

Incidentally a similar car has been listed tonight with a low start which has already attracted bids - the fact that it is in the South East will help the sale - car is ULEZ compliant.

[stuboy]

On 9/18/2023 at 7:34 PM, Lanciaman said:

The thing costs £700 to tax and is averaging 27 mpg on the trip computer, primarily cos of driving like Miss Daisy... 

how bloody much and i moan about £36 pm tax and 17.4mpg  and drive like im relieving my yoof

[New POD]

On 9/18/2023 at 7:34 PM, Lanciaman said:

I have a late 2007 Subaru Outback 3.0.

The thing costs £700 to tax and is averaging 27 mpg on the trip computer, primarily cos of driving like Miss Daisy...  Its beginning to piss me off. Love the car but... 

I've justified 3.0 Subarus  over the years as they don't go wrong as a general rule and are reliable as it gets. So the tax and fuel is offset by not having to throw parts at it every 2 weeks. 

However, I'm waivering....  I see £35 a year road tax and 50mpgeees. 

I also see diesel  injector faults, turbo faults, dpf faults, dual mass flywheels, £1200 clutch jobs...  In fact part of my head says a diesel of 10 years old is just bad news and will be in the garage every month for something or other so suck up the inescapable  outback costs. 

But I'm still waivering. It's the tax that pisses me off the most.  I do 8k miles a year in it.  Mr bluemotion golf can do 50k a year and pay hee haw tax. 

Some reassurance to stay away from diesels would be good.  You can lie,  I just need the man maths argument reinforced! 

I also have a 3.0 Toyota alphard so sense is lacking. 

 

You need a spreadsheet. 

3 columns or more.

Column A List of names for expenditure.

Value start of year

value emd of year

mpg

pruce per gallon

Fuel price per mile

Tyres cost per mile

Service cost per mile

Tax 

Imsurance

repairs

total coar per year

mile per year

Total.cost per mile. 

 

Column B subaru costs Column C to X, alternative vehicle.