1980’s motoring in Poland

[Borsuq]

7 minutes ago, St.Jude said:

(beauty is always subjective)

Agreed. I'd definitely refrain from calling a Polonez beautiful, but some of them do look quite cool in a rugged sort of way. I really like the rear ed treatment they got during the facelift, so I think i like the MR'89 best. Coincidentally, they're often considered to be the worst made generation of the Polonez. Oh well. ;D

8 minutes ago, St.Jude said:

I would say you'd have a fair bit of work to do to make them drive better!

Would definitely be a project to say the least. Ladas have a head start in this matter with their coil sprung rear axle and their more modern OHC engines, but they never really really took advantage of those things to any sort of decent extent. The way the Polonez handled was always massively hampered by its weighty body, compared to other 80's cars of a similar size it was often more than 150 kg heavier. Add to that leaf springs in the back and an unrefined OHV engine and it is a pig real to drive. More like a lorry or van than a passenger car. It still can be fun as an unhurried cruiser though.

I think the first step to improving handling would be to add antiroll bars. It's a common mod to transplant a rear antiroll bar from an estate to a regular hatch/saloon and it supposedly improves handling quite a bit. Unfortunately, I've also heard reports that it makes the back end more prone to skipping and breaking into snap oversteer, so it's not a mod I'm likely to try myself. I imagine it's due to the fact that estates also have different springs in the back (3 leafs instead of 2 AFAIK), so the antiroll bar doesn't quite match. Still, if you put some maths behind a rear antiroll bar on one of these I imagine it could be quite an improvement. Especially if you also changed the springs and shock absorbers. As it is the suspension is extremely slow to react and remains stiff over bumps while also allowing extremely heavy lean in corners. It kinda gets better as the road gets worse (which was welcome at the time I guess), but that's not a super useful characteristic.

Oh, and power steering also immensely improves drivability. There's no feeling behind the steering on non PAS models anyway, so there's no downside to having PAS. It's probably why it was standard on Daewoo era Plus models.

[Borsuq]

17 minutes ago, sierraman said:

I think part of the appeal of the Polonez was when you could pick one up for £15 down the Auctions. When they’re getting to four figures the appeal somewhat decreases. 

Definitely true for people who have no real nostalgia associated with them. There's however a large amount of people who are willing to pay extra for getting a car just like their dad used to have. If you take nostalgia out of the equation they're worth sod all.

[St.Jude]

10 minutes ago, Borsuq said:

Agreed. I'd definitely refrain from calling a Polonez beautiful, but some of them do look quite cool in a rugged sort of way. I really like the rear ed treatment they got during the facelift, so I think i like the MR'89 best. Coincidentally, they're often considered to be the worst made generation of the Polonez. Oh well. ;D

Would definitely be a project to say the least. Ladas have a head start in this matter with their coil sprung rear axle and their more modern OHC engines, but they never really really took advantage of those things to any sort of decent extent. The way the Polonez handled was always massively hampered by its weighty body, compared to other 80's cars of a similar size it was often more than 150 kg heavier. Add to that leaf springs in the back and an unrefined OHV engine and it is a pig real to drive. More like a lorry or van than a passenger car. It still can be fun as an unhurried cruiser though.

I think the first step to improving handling would be to add antiroll bars. It's a common mod to transplant a rear antiroll bar from an estate to a regular hatch/saloon and it supposedly improves handling quite a bit. Unfortunately, I've also heard reports that it makes the back end more prone to skipping and breaking into snap oversteer, so it's not a mod I'm likely to try myself. I imagine it's due to the fact that estates also have different springs in the back (3 leafs instead of 2 AFAIK), so the antiroll bar doesn't quite match. Still, if you put some maths behind a rear antiroll bar on one of these I imagine it could be quite an improvement. Especially if you also changed the springs and shock absorbers. As it is the suspension is extremely slow to react and remains stiff over bumps while also allowing extremely heavy lean in corners. It kinda gets better as the road gets worse (which was welcome at the time I guess), but that's not a super useful characteristic.

Oh, and power steering also immensely improves drivability. There's no feeling behind the steering on non PAS models anyway, so there's no downside to having PAS. It's probably why it was standard on Daewoo era Plus models.

The theme I get with FSO is that they didn't really do a whole lot to improve the cars they had, and would rather push the boundaries of what was possible with what they got. I don't know enough about it though to work out whether it was just a company decision or something dictated by Polish economics of the time. 

[sierraman]

8 minutes ago, St.Jude said:

The theme I get with FSO is that they didn't really do a whole lot to improve the cars they had, and would rather push the boundaries of what was possible with what they got. I don't know enough about it though to work out whether it was just a company decision or something dictated by Polish economics of the time. 

If you’d seen the videos of the production line you’d see why they were so slipshod, blokes making things fit with a mallet and antiquated presses. They were also relatively expensive to build, they were pretty much hand built which is very labour intensive. Also being built under the communist rule at the time didn’t help, due to shortages they’d make 2000 cars let’s say and swap them for a load of sausages or black and white televisions with another country. So needless to say they had fuck all in the coffers to develop a new model. 

[Datsuncog]

42 minutes ago, sierraman said:

I think part of the appeal of the Polonez was when you could pick one up for £15

In fairness, you still can... kind of.

(Sorry)

But yeah, FSOs seemed to have crazy depreciation on them - I can remember the sad state of a neighbour's neglected 125P when it was only about four years old, and I can also recall quite a clean-looking Polonez out the front of a dealer with £50 on the windscreen. It was only about five or six years old.

Did FSOs ever get the same 'repatriation' treatment in the 1990s as all those UK Ladas shipped back to former USSR countries by Russian sailors who could sell on £100 heaps for a tidy profit?

[Borsuq]

16 hours ago, St.Jude said:

The theme I get with FSO is that they didn't really do a whole lot to improve the cars they had, and would rather push the boundaries of what was possible with what they got. I don't know enough about it though to work out whether it was just a company decision or something dictated by Polish economics of the time. 

Poland and by extension FSO were consistently broke. The Polonez project started out fairly ambitious - a large, safe hatchback with zippy engines they can potentially try to sell in America. They quickly realised they couldn't do everything from scratch, so they decided to slightly fiddle with Fiat 125p undepinnings they already had and fit a new body over that. Fiat twincam engines were supposed to come just after launch. Then they realised they couldn't afford modern twincams and were left with old OHV lumps.

I guess doing iterative changes to existing models is a lot cheaper than introducing new ones. Prototypes of what could come next kept popping up, but were simply too costly to introduce.

16 hours ago, sierraman said:

They were also relatively expensive to build, they were pretty much hand built which is very labour intensive.

Polish cars weren't really expensive to build as long as they didn't come with big ticket western parts, like diesel engines. Bear in mind that labour was essentially worthless in communist Poland. Workers were paid in Złoty and  due to a really odd relationship between communist and western currencies it was worth to spend an obscene amount of Złotys to earn almost any amount of Dollars or Pounds.

16 hours ago, Datsuncog said:

Did FSOs ever get the same 'repatriation' treatment in the 1990s as all those UK Ladas shipped back to former USSR countries by Russian sailors who could sell on £100 heaps for a tidy profit?

Not really. Export cars were desireable due to their unusual spec and potentially better build quality, but they're nothing more than a collector item. Importing RHD cars to Poland as anything other than collector items couldn't really happen because for years it was a massive ballache to register RHD cars for road use here and parts were cheap and plentiful. Fairly sure reimporting continental cars didn't really happen either, probably due to costs associated.

[Norbert]

20 hours ago, Borsuq said:

- early 126ps are definitely considered classics by now, late ones not so much, but prices are rising. I reckon we'll reach a point when even late ones are pretty desirable because they offer a very similar experience overall. It's probably most fondly remembered of Polish cars and an easy way to get into classic car ownership.

When I would go to Poland for work pre-Covid, the town I visited had a 126 cafe...

Silesia Smakuje » Bielsko-Biała: Maluch Cafe, czyli kawiarnia z fiatem 126p w roli głównej

[Borsuq]

16 minutes ago, Norbert said:

When I would go to Poland for work pre-Covid, the town I visited had a 126 cafe...

Silesia Smakuje » Bielsko-Biała: Maluch Cafe, czyli kawiarnia z fiatem 126p w roli głównej

Bielsko-Biała is where the 126p was produced throughot its entire lifespan so they're very big on them there.  IIRC there are hotels that give you a night free if you turn up in a Maluch as well.

[St.Jude]

1 hour ago, Borsuq said:

Poland and by extension FSO were consistently broke. The Polonez project started out fairly ambitious - a large, safe hatchback with zippy engines they can potentially try to sell in America. They quickly realised they couldn't do everything from scratch, so they decided to slightly fiddle with Fiat 125p undepinnings they already had and fit a new body over that. Fiat twincam engines were supposed to come just after launch. Then they realised they couldn't afford modern twincams and were left with old OHV lumps.

I guess doing iterative changes to existing models is a lot cheaper than introducing new ones. Prototypes of what could come next kept popping up, but were simply too costly to introduce.

18 hours ago, sierraman said:

Did Fiat kit out the FSO factory then? Or did FSO build that themselves? Obviously because the agreement the USSR had with Fiat for the Lada factory meant Fiat tooled the plant in exchange for steel, which went on to rot marvellously well on subsequent Fiat/Ferrari's. 

1 hour ago, Borsuq said:

Polish cars weren't really expensive to build as long as they didn't come with big ticket western parts, like diesel engines. Bear in mind that labour was essentially worthless in communist Poland. Workers were paid in Złoty and  due to a really odd relationship between communist and western currencies it was worth to spend an obscene amount of Złotys to earn almost any amount of Dollars or Pounds.

Were the Diesel and K-Series Polonez's big sellers then? Or were they fairly rare in terms of sales do you know?

[Borsuq]

16 minutes ago, St.Jude said:

Did Fiat kit out the FSO factory then? Or did FSO build that themselves? Obviously because the agreement the USSR had with Fiat for the Lada factory meant Fiat tooled the plant in exchange for steel, which went on to rot marvellously well on subsequent Fiat/Ferrari's.

Fiat did build production lines for both the 125p and later the Polonez, in both cases the lines were modern at the time of being introduced at FSO. I don't remember the exact details of the deal and would have to consult some literature when I get home, but production was definitely set up by Fiat. Poland usually tried to negotiate being able to pay by supplying parts, but I don't think that was a big part of either the 125p or the Polonez deal. IIRC in case of the 126p Poland was paying Fiat by supplying ready to install drivetrains and later complete cars to western markets.

22 minutes ago, St.Jude said:

Were the Diesel and K-Series Polonez's big sellers then? Or were they fairly rare in terms of sales do you know?

Both the K-series and the XUD were introduced once Poland went capitalist, so it's a bit different. By that point the Złoty became a currency like any other and could be freely exchanged so FSO weren't quite as desperate to spend as little western currency as they could when making cars. K-series and XUD Caros were more expensive (especially the XUD was quite pricey I believe), but they were freely available. The Kettle Caro even achieved a degree of popularity, becoming a bit of a Polonez GTI and one of the cheapest ways to get a car with any degree of perfromance. The XUD Caro was slow, loud and expensive so it didn't find quite as many buyers back home.

The earlier VM diesel powered Polonez was however one of the versions where production was heavily limited by the need to import and pay for western engines. Another project that died due to engine cost was a planned Kubota diesel powered 126p. I don't think there was a way to make a diesel work in the home market without producing an engine domestically.

[Bitzer]

2 hours ago, St.Jude said:

Fiat tooled the plant in exchange for steel, which went on to rot marvellously well on subsequent Fiat/Ferrari's. 

I think I read somewhere that the quality of Soviet steel was so poor it was more or less "pre-rusted", with flakes of rust actually rolled-in in the thickness of the sheets, and there was no way to fix this problem through e.g. using more layers of or better quality paint. The contract, supposedly, expired by the end of 80s.

I am inclined to believe there is more than a grain of truth in this legend, because while my first Uno (1987 MkI) has literally dissolved, the second one (1989, one of the last MkIs) was incomparably better and the third one (1992 MkII) had almost no rust when scrapped after a nasty accident. Mind you, Fiat did not introduce galvanized body parts before 1993.