FatHarris - tales of a motoring moron *Rover Dead?*

[Zelandeth]

My tale of a wandering car was my second Metro which snapped it's handbrake cable while I was 30 miles away at college - in a busy city centre car park.  Managed to roll clear from one side of the car park to the other without hitting anything, coming to rest gently against the kerb there.

Suffice to say I have basically never trusted a handbrake ever since, and that was 20 years ago!

[grogee]

9 hours ago, HillmanImp said:

You are 45-50, yeah? 

Just celebrated my 48th birthday. 

[fatharris]

11 hours ago, grogee said:

Wow I used to have one of those old army coats. Are they cool again now? 

Probably popular amongst the great unwashed, but I found it in a scranbag (Click for definition - No.2) when I deployed to Scotland many years ago and immediately appreciated how useful, warm and waterproof it was! I lent it to Dan for the collection as he forgot to bring a coat

10 hours ago, Angrydicky said:

Great update.

600 rear calipers always seem shit, mine certainly are. It needs the handbrake pulled on much higher than you did there to get it to hold on an incline, so I always leave it in gear when parked on a hill for this reason! I’m surprised it always seems to pass the mot, but there we go.

PAS oil cooler pipes, they all do that sir. I got lucky with a good secondhand set from a breaker but even those were starting to go. I have heard it’s Honda overengineering and there’s no real need for an oil cooler for the PAS fluid. So you can just bypass it by removing it and joining the ends together. The benefit of this is that the ends of the pipes are already flared for the rubber hoses to clip onto so there’s less chance of it leaking.

That box of relays is a new one on me and I’ve driven 600s for a few years. Is it only applicable to the Ti? Mine have been the lowly and unloved Honda engined models.

Yeah, I noticed it need more clicks than expected to come to a stop but never used it on a hill. Lesson learned, I just wish it hadn't cost me a headlight protector to learn!

9 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

My tale of a wandering car was my second Metro which snapped it's handbrake cable while I was 30 miles away at college - in a busy city centre car park.  Managed to roll clear from one side of the car park to the other without hitting anything, coming to rest gently against the kerb there.

Suffice to say I have basically never trusted a handbrake ever since, and that was 20 years ago!

Weirdly, this happened almost 11 years to the day of the last time a handbrake failed on me, causing my car to roll into the corner of the neighbours house.

The car? Rover 75.

[Noel Tidybeard]

11 hours ago, Angrydicky said:

Mine have been the lowly and unloved Honda engined models.

unloved? the 2.3 maybe but the Honda engined 2.0 was much loved by the private hire brigade at one point

[Angrydicky]

Definitely unloved nowadays, the only 600 worth* preserving is the Ti, according to the experts*.

[Austin-Rover]

1 hour ago, Angrydicky said:

Definitely unloved nowadays, the only 600 worth* preserving is the Ti, according to the experts*.

Pah, give me an early 618i with the unpainted bumpers! 😍

[camryv6]

My 620ti rolled backwards into a tree on its own, it is a Rover thing, that happened over ten years ago and i still don't like to talk about it, i loved that car and it was never the same afterwards.

[angle]

My friend's dad's 600 rolled out of its parking space in a multi storey, down a ramp and apparently made quite a mess at the other end...

[stuboy]

what do u use to record speed, distant. location?

[fatharris]

1 hour ago, stuboy said:

what do u use to record speed, distant. location?

If you are referring to the app I used during the Beat's trip to the Peaks district, it was called GalileoGPS and was available for free on the Play store - https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=gps.speedometer&hl=en&gl=US&pli=1

 

It is refreshing to see that I'm not alone with the 600 having a moment of sentience and trying to run away from the future that beheld it.

Also, found a photo of the previous handbrake incident - this one was more my fault, having changed the rear wheel bearing, adjusted the handbrake and drove 75 miles home. Middle of the night, the brakes cooled down, and it rolled down a very steep driveway bounced off the neighbours house!

Got lucky with that one too - if it weren't for the slight turn on the steering wheel, it would have hit a Fiesta at the bottom, punting it off a 5 foot ledge into the garden and would have been stuck there forever

[High Jetter]

The Tom Robinson song came to mind, 2, 4, 6, 8...MOTORWAY but also series of BL Rovers.

[camryv6]

17 hours ago, angle said:

My friend's dad's 600 rolled out of its parking space in a multi storey, down a ramp and apparently made quite a mess at the other end...

See told you it is quite normal, thinking about it my first Rover 600, a Honda powered one, had i slight mishap and rolled into a gate but no damage. 

[DSdriver]

The Citroen DS have rather a habit of rolling away because handbrake works on the front inboard discs and if you have been braking heavily before parking the discs contract and away she goes. I saw a photo once of a DS embedded in a garage door at the bottom of a steep drive and what added to the owners misery was the fact that there was a Bentley in the garage which also got damaged.

We've been lucky, in fact there was one occasion where my wife parked in the car park were she worked to find when she finished work that there had been a sudden freezing rain episode and everyone else's cars had all slid down and were in a jumble at the bottom of the hill. She had parked at the top of the carpark where the slope wasn't so bad. 

[beko1987]

I leave manual cars in gear after watching something similar happen to a friend decades ago! 

Plus the only 2 auto cars I've had I never* used the handbrake 🤣

XM because it was a known failure point on a plastic y piece, it got used gingerly maybe the week before the mot and passed thankfully. Bar that it stayed in P... 

The Laguna Initiale had an auto handbrake, so it worked by itself in many ways, and whilst I couldn't stop all of them I did become the dickhead who sits on the brakes at the traffic lights. Because if I put the car in P it put the handbrake on, and I had TEH FEARZ of it locking on and not releasing one shitty raining morning in heavy traffic... So N and on the brakes it was 🤣 Said car failed it's mot on said rear handbrakes too which I fixed with wd40 and a hammer

[fatharris]

Been fairly quiet on the car front, so lets get back up to date.

I now park properly on the hill to avoid disaster:

MrsH had a lend of the Rover for a few days - her verdict? She liked how fast it was, particularly the turbo. Hated the clutch, and considered it an exciting drive whenever the kids weren't in the back. She also enjoyed pissing off anyone who tried to tailgate her.

 

In-laws visited, and made the driveway even more cramped for a week (still losing a spot to the wall dirtpile - wall is a work in progress)

Then it was time for the next car in the fleet to get some attention - the Laguna was due an MOT! Dropped it off and awaited the results:

With only a fail for a nearside track rod end (which @twosmoke300 did pick up during the wheel bearing change, but completely slipped my mind), so it was time to jack it up and get the spanners out. Typically, it was an awkward arse of a job, being properly seized in place, snapping the securing bolt and requiring a grinder to get off in the end. After a bit of faffing, I got the item changed:

I made a start on the offside one which didn't get picked up, but was £44 for a pair, but that was proving to be even more of an arsehole to remove. That one will likely require an inner tie rod replacement as well, so it was reassembled and presented for a clean pass re-test.

The Mazda was lent to Dan for a while to get some use out of it - it promptly shat a brake caliper.

So a new one was sourced and fitted, and shortly after that, the battery decided to stop holding charge. Thankfully, the BX battery was sat on the side ready to go, so a new battery steady bar was cobbled together out of some threaded bar and all was well. The old battery was fully charged before a drop test confirmed it really was the end of the road for the little Bosch. The Mazda is parked up on the drive out of the way for a while, as I think Dan lost interest in borrowing it after that.

Whilst I had the use of the drop tester, I tried it on an old Shogun battery my mate gave me when it stopped working on his - probably no good to use in a car, but certainly strong enough to use as a garage battery!

With MrsH's birthday coming up, I decided to make a proper shelter for the hot tub so we can use it in more inclement weather conditions. With a budget of £150, and some pallets liberated from local areas, I went to the local DIY shop and quickly understood why people buy small vans.

 

I didn't take many photos of it, as I only had a few days to get it done. Thankfully, I had my assistant!

   

It was completed just in the nick of time, the day before MrsH's birthday. The foam flooring does well to retain heat as well, which should mean it's not /too/ expensive to run. Roof keeps the worst of the rain off you, and it's already survived storm-force winds.

The Rover was finally put back on ramps, to effect a permanent repair to the gearshift rod bodge performed at Silverstone to get us home. There's no chance anything is getting past that lot!

I also fulfilled a promise to MrsH made months ago, and got rid of the scrap metal collection I had stashed around the garden. £194, not bad!

Finally onto last week, and after a bit of inspection/cleaning up and greasing of the brakes, the Beat was loaded up:

And I set off for the Peaks District, 370 miles away. I largely followed the same route as last time, avoiding motorways/dual carriageways where possible, and enjoying the drive - this naturally meant I took the Fosse Way

Eventually, after the first 125 miles, hunger pangs set in, so I did something I've never done before - stopped at a roadside diner. 

Although looking at it, you can understand why I'd want to stop:

 

 

 

It was pure 70s nostalgia in there, including the avocado bathroom fittings. The food was reasonably priced and tasty, and the service was excellent. Will definitely stop by there again in the future.

Eventually, after ten hours of travelling, and some fuel, I made it to Peaks, and spent three days having fun with friends, including leading a drive out to Cat and Fiddle. The scenery of that entire area is breathtaking, and what a place to have a hangover fryup!

 

 

 

(Whilst there, I tried Surstromming - the fermented Swedish fish treat. I strangely do not recommend anyone try it, much less be anywhere near it when the can is opened.)

Eventually, after 750 miles, three full tanks (about 51MPG overall), a splash of oil and 21 hours driving, the weekend concluded and I was back home. Aside from using a bit of oil (6000rpm constantly for four hours is going to do that), the plucky wee Honda behaved impeccably, and my back and hips should recover soon!

 

All in all, a busy six weeks! Should calm down a bit again soon, hopefully.

 

[fatharris]

Oh yeah, forgot to say, the ABS fault on the Rover cleared itself and been gone for about three weeks.

To prove I shouldn't get too cocky, Herman threw an ABS fault light about a fortnight ago.

Bloody typical, eh? 🤣

[sdkrc]

36 minutes ago, fatharris said:

 

 

That backpack once out the car

Superb thread man! That hot tub hut looks very fucking good for £150. *Hat tip*

[fatharris]

Took the Laguna up to Plymouth to visit some mates, and take the boy to the local museum on the final weekend of the summer hols.

Unfortunately, as I approached the car in Plymouth, I saw something dangling down under the car, so had a quick peek:

Oh noes.

Luckily, we were adjacent to a B&M so some get-home bodgery was employed:

Fingers crossed, it hasn't fallen off yet - the small rear strap is intact so it's pretty secure.

 

Whilst at the museum, I did have a chuckle at the insect exhibit, specifically the Beetle section:

 

As for the Laguna, I managed to source some OE straps for a decent price and they arrived quickly - I'll change the small strap whilst I'm there too and that should last the life of the car.

Got time to do it next week alongside the service, so can't complain.

Beat has been the daily for the past fortnight and I've been enjoying every moment of it 😁

[fatharris]

Been a busy few weeks!

First off, I still haven't got around to getting new rear light seals for Herman, and the rear light was resembling a fishtank, so it was time to break out the drill:

The BX needed to be vacated from the garage for a bit, but wouldn't start, so that was pushed out of the garage, washed and the cover popped on.

There was another work event involving taking the dog for a walk. Against my better judgement, I took Archie in the MX5. Got 2 miles into the journey before that familiar hot metal smell came back. Pulled over to confirm the caliper was binding and causing a lot of smoke.

Turned around, limped the Mazda back and Archie was whisked to the park in Herman, a car he'd only been in once previously. He was so excited, he wanted to poke his nose out of the window, at any cost.

Unfortunately, he used the ashtray as a step, which promptly snapped off. Cheers mate.

The following week, with the garage vacated, the Mazda was popped in, caliper sliders re- greased and pad surfaces wirebrushed - all is well, so no new caliper required, phew!

With that one out the way, it was the turn of the Laguna, which was due a service:

And the fuel tank straps were the next job on the list. Started with the small one first, as that was still attached to the car and was relatively solid. 
OR SO I THOUGHT.

Once it came off, there were a lot of bran flakes on the floor. Lucky I did get both of them, in and get this job done, because this one wasn't far behind in condition to the one that already failed.

Whilst in the area, I had a bit of a wirebrushing session, before slapping on some used engine oil to stave off the corrosion for a bit longer:

With that one, it was time to get started on the other one....

.....shit. Called it a night after that.

The following morning, I had another look at the extent of the problem. 

Multiple idea were attempted to get that stuck bolt thread out, including welding a nut to a nail to weld onto the bolt - naturally, because nails are soft as fuck, this didn't work.

Eventually,  I resorted to hammering it in, and pushing the anchor nut out of the way. Once that was done, using an elaborate system of string and metal wire, I was able to thread a bolt through the box section and secure it, which allowed for the rest of the tank strap replacement to go ahead - this new bolt was double-nutted to secure it further. Then, more wirebrushing and oil slapped on any vulnerable areas before I deemed the Renault finished.

With that done, it was time to tackle the elephant on the driveway:

[fatharris]

When I got the Rover from the roffle, I was informed that the clutch biting point was a bit high but otherwise was fine. Obviously, the events that unfolded trying to get home from Silverstone had showed that the clutch wasn't going to get any better. Luckily, a new clutch was included in the generous spares package supplied by @montytom. With the MOT looming, and the OSF CV boot split all the way round, it made sense to kill two birds with one stone and get the car into a work package to aid its chances for a pass.

So, up on axle stands and wheels off, and gearbox oil drained:

I was following a guide supplied on an MG-R owners forum 13 years ago, which highlights the merits of keeping forums in lieu of FB groups. I didn't get many photos of the first day's work, as a) I was keen to get cracking, and b) I was ill as fuck with D&V and having to rush to the toilet every 20 minutes to add to the Poo Count. Called it a day early as a result.

It wasn't until day 2 that I started to encounter problems, and oh boy, it was a doozy. The lower engine steady bar needed to be removed to lower the engine to facilitate gearbox removal. First bolt for the small bush came out with minimal fuss. The big one? Different story altogether. The bolt shank had corroded and seized itself into the metal bush insert, and when the bolt was turned, the entire bush turned within the dogbone mount. 

In the coming hours that ensued, I tried a whole manner of things to get this to play ball - penetrating oil, hammers, chisels, even got my hammer drill involved, whilst hitting it with a lump hammer!

Eventually, it became clear that nothing was going to work, so it was time to fire up the angle grinder:

First two cuts were on the mount itself in order to get it out of the way - I'd already accepted this was going to have to be sacrificed at this point. The next set of cuts involved trying to cut through the big rubber bush, the sleeve, and the bolt. I chose to cut it about a centimetre inboard, to give a bit of clearance between the disc and the subframe etc. The plumes of smoke this generated in the garage was impressive! Eventually, the cut went all the way through, and I was able to remove a large section of the bush, leaving the remaining centimetre.

Did that bit come out easily? Did it bollocks. More hammering, and lubing followed, which was getting me nowhere. Eventually, I opted to used the air file to wear down the shank of the bolt a bit more. After more of this, I was then able to use the pipe wrench to grasp the bush sleeve and using a wrench, I cracked the corrosion and the remainder of the items fell out. An absolute arseache.

It was only that evening when I got onto the owners groups, that I realised this mount was very hard to get hold of - as in, impossible. No hits on Rimmers, eBay or anything else. I eventually got lucky by commenting on a breaking post on a Facebook group that was over a year old.

Finally, for £40, I had a replacement mount on the way - I was informed that the bushes were toast on it, so I started the hunt online for those - surprise, surprise, they aren't available. Eventually, I resorted to ordering a set of Powerflex bushes from eBay for £80 - they come is sets of two, to do the top and bottom engine steady.

With that awful escapade behind me, the disassembly continued. I got to the point of disconnecting/wirelocking the clutch slave cylinder to prevent the rod inadvertently popping out, and found a contributing factor to the sloppy clutch pedal - check out the wear on that clevis pin!

Finally, that evening, with MrsH in the garage as a safety rating, the engine was lowered, and the gearbox removed before I called it a night:

Whilst this was being disassembled, I noticed the OSF bottom ball joint had play in it. The hub was duly removed (with a seized track rod end still fitted) and sent up to Phill and Dan to be replaced and the track rod end to be removed.

In the meantime, I decided to do some of the other jobs whilst awaiting the parts in the post. First up was the OSF CV joint - the boot had been torn since I got it, and there was a clicking when turning on full lock. Again, two CV joints were supplied in the boot with the car, so another free fix! Thankfully, unlike the last time I tried this with the Fiesta, the CV joint actually came off!

Whilst it was in bits, and I had the free spares, it made sense to do the nearside shaft too - this turned out to be a wise move, as the boot was held on with tywraps instead of the standard metal clip, which had allowed dirt to get in underneath the boot and contaminate the grease!

Finally, it was time to turn my attention to the star of the show - the clutch itself.

Somebody clearly cared for this car, as there was a LUK inside!

Once removed, there was clear evidence of overheating - probably from the Silverstone fiasco!

The friction plate itself seemed to have plenty of meat - Vernier calipers deployted and confirmed 7mm of plate thickness - the replacement one only has 1mm more on it! Clearly, this wasn't slipping for a lack of friction plate thickness.

The flywheel itself was removed for a check - there were signs of crazing on the surface, but on the whole, it seemed fine, so it was cleaned up with IPA and popped on the pile of bits to refit,

Whilst in the area, with the flywheel off, I noticed the rear crank seal was letting a bit of oil drop. This was removed, cleaned thoroughly, the rubber seal insert flipped and re-inserted with a bit of blue Hylomar. Let's see if that works.

The inside of the gearbox was cleaned up and the release bearing removed. When removing it, I noticed the clutch arm was really stiff. Think I've found another contributory factor to the whole thing not working.

Took it out, and wouldn't you know? The shaft was heavily corroded:

Further inspection highlighted an elongated hole for the clevis pin - yet another factor in the poor clutch operation:

Knowing that I'll never find one of these for sale, it was time to fire up the welder again. I'd measured the diameter of the clevis pin on an unworn section - 7.9mm. I filled the hole with weld, and re-drilled it to 8mm.

Quick test with the clevis pin confirmed the fitment was spot on.

The clutch arm was then thoroughly de-corroded, lubricated and refitted - now it operates very smoothly! The release bearing was fitted at the same time.

At this point, with so many concurrent jobs going on, the workbench resembled a disaster zone:

But I pressed on, fitting the flywheel, aligning the clutch by eye, and torqued the pressure plate bolts. Borg and Beck were the OE supplier for Rover clutches back in the day!

Finally, MrsH was in the garage again as safety number as the gearbox was lifted into place and secured, calling an end to Day 3. I was back to work the following day and had a bit of a break from rolling around on the floor whilst I awaited bits to come in.

 

[fatharris]

We pick up over a week later - the postie starts bringing treats, such as my Powerflex bushes, and the lower engine mount (not pictured):

The lower engine steady had the new bushes fitted, and was fitted to the engine, which was now jacked back level and the gearbox mount re-fitted. The gearbox earth lead was cleaned up prior to refitment as well.

The upper engine steady was next - the big bush just popped out, but the bottom one needed a bit more persuasion:

The slave cylinder was refitted, reconnected with a new clevis pin, and bled - this now worked a treat, much lighter and smoother than before. This was then absolutely lagged in grease.

The offside hub came back with a fresh balljoint and was fitted - albeit with me being daft and thinking the wheel bearing had failed during the balljoint change - I was then reminded that they need to be tightened up via the hub nut to take the play out. A new track rod end was also fitted as the rubber boot on the old one was damaged.

Whilst working in the area, I noticed the brake calipers on the front hadn't been lubricated, so both front calipers and pads were removed, cleaned and lubricated - this ended up clearing a juddering under braking, which is a winner.

Then obviously, the next step was to stop all reassembly work, and take the front bumper off for further secondary jobs. Garage looking more and more untidy as the day goes on.

One of the persistent faults present with the car was the bonnet catch had to be manually reset every time the released was pulled - this was diagnosed as a sticking bonnet release cable.

Again, new ones aren't available, so a used one was sourced - prior to fitting it, I held it vertically in a line and fed oil into it until it came out the other end and ensured the operation would remain smooth for years to come. It was a bit of a faff to fit, but matching the run highlighted an opportunity to kink the outer sheath, so the run was slightly changed.

The main reason to remove the front bumper was to sort out the bumper corner misalignment from the time it rolled into the wall. Didn't take too long to remove and straighten the crash bar in the vice, although it has highlighted that the crash bar needs replacement soon anyway - it's pretty corroded. I didn't get an after picture, but you'll see in the other photos at the end, it worked a treat!

With the rest of the reassembly done (again, not pictured), it was time to prep the car for filling up with fresh gearbox oil, but first, the car was jacked at the rear to get the car level.

With 2.2 litres in and everything bolted back up, it was time to turn the key and try the gears whilst still on stands. Success! The clutch engaged correctly, and all gears were selectable. Onto another secondary job, namely the washer jets being weak as piss. This was narrowed down to a kinked washer pipe, which was subsequently replaced and the jets re-aligned.

Next, in a move considered pretty silly, I took off the plastic sill covers and inspected the metalwork for grot - always a daft move on a 20+ year old cheap car. However, with the exception of two jacking points showing a bit of surface rust, it was in really good condition! Whilst underneath, I took the opportunity to rustproof some more exposed areas with Dynax corrosion preventative.

The following day, the wheels were bolted back on, and the car reversed out in the pissing rain, so far, so good!

It then went on a quick test drive which involved a couple of miles of down the dual carriageway, which confirmed everything was working - the clutch biting point being a lot lower than the previous incumbent.

Once back, it was time to stow away all the tools and tidy the bombsite I called a garage. At the end, I got a lesson in why you conduct tool checks BEFORE the test drive, when I couldn't find a socket, extension and ratchet handle:

Oops.

The car itself was absolutely filthy - covered in greasy handprints and ingrained rust filings into the paintwork - someone's been grinding around this car  and the paintwork was gritty to the touch.

So, it was thoroughly washed and brought back into the now-tidy garage (you can see the front bumper corner alignment is now spot on!):

And attacked with a claybar. This ended up taking a good few hours based on the sheer level of contaminants on the paintwork, so I ran out of time to polish or wax it, but it feels much nicer now, and I've managed to get a few scuff marks out too, which is a bonus! This was the state of the claybar after a few passes of the OSF wing, to give some idea of the mess:

After that, I used the Rover to commute to work for the rest of the week, just to give it a bit of a shakedown - there's still a bit of clonking over speedhumps, which I can probably attribute to the worn ARB 'D' bushes - I found a set of NOS Rover ones on eBay for less than a tenner delivered, and will fit them this week.

Today was the last day of the MOT so we went out in it one last time - it's booked in for the 20th, along the the Beat, which is taking the slot before that, so fingers crossed!

With the Rover out of the garage, the BX under a sturdy cover, and a hefty storm on the way, the MX5 and the Beat have taken refuge inside for now, along with anything in the garden that could blow away! We got away with no damage to the house or any of our stuff, but I did have to clear the river storm drain outside our house from all the debris - the river level was a lot higher than usual!

So, roll on the 20th I guess - fingers crossed it won't be heartache!

Thanks for reading!

 

[Cookiesouwest]

Very impressive and thorough work. 

The Rover has found the right owner.

 

 

[Rustybullethole]

Great work going on here I like and appreciate the attention to the bonnet release cable as its an issue i've put on the back burner before which has lead to much faffing about! 

Good stuff 11/10.

[Surface Rust]

Those cars are all lucky to live with you!

[fatharris]

Oh, almost forgot a nugget of good news!

Got my insurance renewal for the Beat this week:

That will do nicely! 6k/yr, fully comp with 2 years NCB.

[fatharris]

It was all going too smoothly wasn't it?

When moving the Rover around the driveway, the ABS light came back on, with flash codes pointing towards the NSR sensor again. Getting 770 ohms between the pins of the connector on the ABS module which is within spec so I'll have to do some further digging. 

Bloody cars.

[Matty]

55 minutes ago, fatharris said:

It was all going too smoothly wasn't it?

When moving the Rover around the driveway, the ABS light came back on, with flash codes pointing towards the NSR sensor again. Getting 770 ohms between the pins of the connector on the ABS module which is within spec so I'll have to do some further digging. 

Bloody cars.

Not beyond you given what you've just got stuck into.

[R Lutz]

On 17/07/2023 at 20:41, Austin-Rover said:

Pah, give me an early 618i with the unpainted bumpers! 😍

No such car existed, sadly.

[fatharris]

1 hour ago, Matty said:

Not beyond you given what you've just got stuck into.

Unfortunately, there's precisely zero information on this particular ABS system, and the MG-Rover factory service RAVE manual isn't helping either. 

I /think/ I'm getting code 18, which might be NSR speed sensor plausibility, but that's going off a list of codes on the forums that may not even apply to this version of the ABS (Bosch 5.0) - the 600 had at least THREE different systems, with little information available on any of them. The one remaining website that the forums used to link to has long gone too.

Balls.

[Captain Mainwaring]

Threads like this are one of the reasons I love AS so much.