invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

42 minutes ago, D.E said:

 

ooh very nice find! 2 generations there SPD826F a Fibreglass AC Acedes Mk14 Model 67 and its direct predecessor a metal bodied AC Acedes Model 57 behind

 

that also reminds for @Zelandeth I know you asked a fair while back if there was any interior shots of the AC Town car prototypes, well I stumbled across this earlier today, and its gives us a fair look inside, better then anything else out there anyhow

 

 

[xkjagnz]

6 hours ago, Dyslexic Viking said:

Good idea but is there enough sunlight in a UK  winter to charge a battery?

I had a solar charger on my 450slc while doing a rolling restore, it worked fine while i was only running it maybe 100m from parking to the car club ramp. Used it like that for about a year. The panel iirc was from halfrauds and I had it propped against the nearside wheel  (advantage of being on a military base)

Also I keep a small power bank style battery pack in both cars for an emergency,  dirt cheap and light. Like this

[plasticvandan]

Those little power packs are brilliant and probably the ideal solution for now,they start my partners ldv convoy with ease so an Invacar should be no problem. I would sort out a basic toolkit to keep and leave in the car,you don't want to be carrying stuff up and down stairs every time.

[AdgeCutler]

9 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

I actually don't think the dynastart is a bad idea - it certainly made a lot of sense from a packaging perspective on a small engine like this.  There's nothing technically strange about it.  Just a generator and a starter motor on a common shaft essentially.  It's not really all that much bigger than a lot of contemporary starter motors, and has a grand total of three wires coming out of it if I remember right (starter feed, generator field and battery charge output if I remember right), and being belt drive here does really help keep things simple.

As far as performance goes, I think it's entirely reasonable given how little electrical kit is on these cars - the only big load aside from the starter is the headlights.  Even the clock is an addition that's happened later in the car's life (likewise on TPA).  

I think I've only had to charge the battery in TPA two or three times, and that's mainly been after sitting all winter when the idiot writing this has forgotten to disconnect the battery and the clock over several months has drained it.  I'm only using a little U1R lawn mower battery as well simply because it fitted and was half the price of most of the automotive alternatives I found locally at the time.

I'm honestly curious to see how well or not it works in day to day use.  I have my doubts about it keeping up - but I'm quite prepared to be proven wrong, and the more I think about it, given the type of use the cars were expected to see in period I guess it must have worked!

Swapping the regulator definitely vastly improved things for me though.

For future reference, here's how it was wired up.

Which results in the voltmeter jumping straight up to here anywhere north of idle.

So I'd say that's probably a better thing to spend money on than solar panels or anything at this stage if it were me.

A decent set of quick connect terminals (or an in-line connector) to make removal/refitting of the battery less of a pain probably wouldn't be the worst idea either.

Really good to see another one of these little cars going back on the road and doing what it was designed to do.  We really do need to see how many we can get together next year at some point!  Aside from anything else, the more nerdy amongst us (yes, I include myself there) would probably be able to spend a whole afternoon playing spot-the-difference and see if we can figure out method to said changes from car to car.

I've had no trouble with my lawnmower battery keeping enough charge either, admittedly my engine is somewhat smaller but I would think the draw difference is negligable. 

Keep her as original with a decent battery and you'll be fine. 

[BorniteIdentity]

I would 

A. Get a new battery.  Try to overspecify it as much as you can.  This is fairly common with Minis (mine has a Peugeot 306 battery as it's the biggest that will fit in the hole with the terminals the right way around).  This way you're giving yourself a good chance at the start of each journey.

B.  Fit a battery isolator.  This will eliminate any drain.  I can't think what could be draining but maybe?

C.  When out and about - try and give it as good a run as you can.  1.5 miles yesterday was a perfect start, but you'll soon feel confident to hopefully go 'the long way home' to get a bit more puff into the battery.

D.  Budget to change a battery every 3 years.  I pull batteries off a car at 3 years regardless of how well it still starts.  It then becomes my rudimentary 'jump pack'.  By changing batteries like this, you can go for the much maligned but quite acceptable LION.  For an Invacar it'll be £ buttons.

[reb]

1 minute ago, BorniteIdentity said:

Budget to change a battery every 3 years.  I pull batteries off a car at 3 years regardless of how well it still starts

I started doing this after a cold snap, marginal battery, and fucked glow plugs stranded me at work 10 miles from home in a blizzard.

That was the day I discovered that one of the failure modes of glow plugs is to draw a lot of current without doing much useful. Which I still don't understand how it's possible. 

[jonathan_dyane]

Great you have your wheels back.

If it isn't charging (as opposed to the battery being knackered) you need to fix this before driving further or you will get stranded!

[jonathan_dyane]

47 minutes ago, reb said:

I started doing this after a cold snap, marginal battery, and fucked glow plugs stranded me at work 10 miles from home in a blizzard.

That was the day I discovered that one of the failure modes of glow plugs is to draw a lot of current without doing much useful. Which I still don't understand how it's possible. 

What can happen is they fail in a way that they still glow but not at the tip which means they don't really do anything useful.

[Talbot]

14 minutes ago, jonathan_dyane said:

What can happen is they fail in a way that they still glow but not at the tip which means they don't really do anything useful.

have had this happen a few times.  The tip stays cold(ish) but the rest of the length of the plug gets hot.. but not as hot, because the heat isn't concentrated in the tip.

Cut it open with a grinder to see what had happened... the heater coil at the tip had shorted, meaning the copper conductors from the "base" of the glowplug to the heater coil were getting hot instead, and because that is a thicker copper than the heater coil, it draws more current, but the heat is in the wrong place.

[LightBulbFun]

16 hours ago, plasticvandan said:

cudos for parking outside the hells angels club house though

I was wondering if anyone would clock that  

15 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

Definitely a plus one on this.  The charging system on TPA now comes on charge barely above idle, and then stays rock solid through the rev range.  The mechanical regulator (even when I think it was working) always required a decent amount of rpm to really wake up.  

It will juuuuust hold on a very slight charge when the revs come down to idle with no load on as well, which the original one never did.

Plus being solid state there's no adjustment to worry about, points to get fouled etc, it Just Works.  The one I fitted I believe is normally used as an upgrade for VW Beetles with the older style generator setup.

 

I do think though with the relatively low output of the dynastart, how much sitting stationary is involved in London traffic these days and your likely mostly short journeys, externally charging the battery periodically is something you might just have to plan on.

12 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

I actually don't think the dynastart is a bad idea - it certainly made a lot of sense from a packaging perspective on a small engine like this.  There's nothing technically strange about it.  Just a generator and a starter motor on a common shaft essentially.  It's not really all that much bigger than a lot of contemporary starter motors, and has a grand total of three wires coming out of it if I remember right (starter feed, generator field and battery charge output if I remember right), and being belt drive here does really help keep things simple.

As far as performance goes, I think it's entirely reasonable given how little electrical kit is on these cars - the only big load aside from the starter is the headlights.  Even the clock is an addition that's happened later in the car's life (likewise on TPA).  

I think I've only had to charge the battery in TPA two or three times, and that's mainly been after sitting all winter when the idiot writing this has forgotten to disconnect the battery and the clock over several months has drained it.  I'm only using a little U1R lawn mower battery as well simply because it fitted and was half the price of most of the automotive alternatives I found locally at the time.

I'm honestly curious to see how well or not it works in day to day use.  I have my doubts about it keeping up - but I'm quite prepared to be proven wrong, and the more I think about it, given the type of use the cars were expected to see in period I guess it must have worked!

Swapping the regulator definitely vastly improved things for me though.

For future reference, here's how it was wired up.

Which results in the voltmeter jumping straight up to here anywhere north of idle.

So I'd say that's probably a better thing to spend money on than solar panels or anything at this stage if it were me.

A decent set of quick connect terminals (or an in-line connector) to make removal/refitting of the battery less of a pain probably wouldn't be the worst idea either.

Really good to see another one of these little cars going back on the road and doing what it was designed to do.  We really do need to see how many we can get together next year at some point!  Aside from anything else, the more nerdy amongst us (yes, I include myself there) would probably be able to spend a whole afternoon playing spot-the-difference and see if we can figure out method to said changes from car to car.

thanks for the recap I was funnily enough just re-reading your initial posts on this from when you first did it 

https://autoshite.com/topic/29443-zels-motoring-adventurespeugeot-renault-rover-trabant-invacar-volvo-a-sinclair-c5-updated-0910/page/155/#comment-2704743

from that I was able to find this nifty document which is for using it with a Lucas Dynamo, but the interesting part for me is in the later part of the document it goes into details just exactly what is inside the electronic regulator and how it works  

https://www.lrsoc.com/forum/forum_files/LUCAS_RB106_ELECTRONIC_DYNAMO_REGULATOR_CONVERSION_USING_THE_BOSCH_30019_REGULATOR.pdf

I have got one of these Bosch solid-state regulators on order, figured even if I dont fit it right away, it will be good to have on hand as a spare, least they suddenly get discontinued and all stock suddenly vanishes when I do need it! I also need to verify the location and setup of the regulator box in REV' being a later Model 70 with the battery in the front, the engine bay layout is a bit different, so before I do attempt to fit it I want to make sure I have enough slack in all the wiring for it, last thing I want to do of course is chop the connectors off, crimp the new different ones on, only to find I have not got enough length in the wiring to reach said terminals (and I also need to order some more crimp spade terminals, I have plenty 6.3mm ones and a handful of 2.8mm ones somewhere, but typically I have no 4.8mm ones that I think the Mexican electric Bosch regulator uses!)

2 hours ago, BorniteIdentity said:

I would 

A. Get a new battery.  Try to overspecify it as much as you can.  This is fairly common with Minis (mine has a Peugeot 306 battery as it's the biggest that will fit in the whole with the terminals the right way around).  This way you're giving yourself a good chance at the start of each journey.

B.  Fit a battery isolator.  This will eliminate any drain.  I can't think what could be draining but maybe?

C.  When out and about - try and give it as good a run as you can.  1.5 miles yesterday was a perfect start, but you'll soon feel confident to hopefully go 'the long way home' to get a bit more puff into the battery.

D.  Budget to change a battery every 3 years.  I pull batteries off a car at 3 years regardless of how well it still starts.  It then becomes my rudimentary 'jump pack'.  By changing batteries like this, you can go for the much maligned but quite acceptable LION.  For an Invacar it'll be £ buttons.

not sure how much space there is to fit an oversized battery, the clamps are fairly battery-size specific if that makes sense?

later Model 70's like mine use a 35Ah type 037 battery which I think is a Ford battery of all things?  REV's one was fitted in around mid 2021 I think, I dont think its dead, just needs a charge, thankfully I do already have a big overkill lithium jump pack that has no problems getting REV started, its just a awkward getting it connected to the battery! suppose thats good, stops me getting lazy and just using it always  

On 25/10/2024 at 17:40, LightBulbFun said:

(the Dynastart's charging ability or lack their of on short runs is a concern, but it is one of the reasons I last year bought a massive overkill lithium jump pack https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B09CZ89QQ9/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1  )

 

 

 

[JJ0063]

If that battery was fitted in 2021 and has presumably sat completely flat for some time, it’s probably knackered?

[BorniteIdentity]

6 minutes ago, JJ0063 said:

If that battery was fitted in 2021 and has presumably sat completely flat for some time, it’s probably knackered?

Yep. Halfords, from memory, are sketchy about battery warranties for classic cars - as they sit dormant for so long. Certainly my neighbour had a palaver earlier this year getting one warrantied. 

I’d fetch that battery off and charge it fully on a proper 240v charger and then see how it fares, but I’d budget for a new one. I reckon you’ll have a kippered cell. 

[captain_70s]

8 minutes ago, JJ0063 said:

If that battery was fitted in 2021 and has presumably sat completely flat for some time, it’s probably knackered?

I've had luck reviving batteries that seem dead by using them daily on a commute but they'd never hold a charge more than a handful of days in winter if the car wasn't driven. 

[egg]

Insert generic 'all modern 12v batteries are shit' too etc. 

Hey Dez - I might be able to get up to that there London b4 Xmas, if there's any little help I could give, happy so do to. Also, could get some analogue photos of REV...

[D.E]

14 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

ooh very nice find! 2 generations there SPD826F a Fibreglass AC Acedes Mk14 Model 67 and its direct predecessor a metal bodied AC Acedes Model 57 behind

 

that also reminds for @Zelandeth I know you asked a fair while back if there was any interior shots of the AC Town car prototypes, well I stumbled across this earlier today, and its gives us a fair look inside, better then anything else out there anyhow

 

 

A bit closer:

[bangernomics]

Good to see this finally getting used. I reckon it would be a fun thing to do local runs in. Good for you, shame about the battery but tbh for the cost I would just buy a new one, charge the old one up and pop it in the boot.

[Talbot]

the existing battery may be recoverable with a decent long charge off the vehicle on a reasonable battery charger.  Lidl are selling "ultimate speed" chargers for about £15 at the moment and I really rate them.  90% as good as a CTEK one, and about 20% the price.  I now have three of them.  They change mode as the battery charges, and don't over-charge (as some dumb chargers sometimes can).

a 35AH battery should be plenty large enough for that vehicle.. the Racing 2CV, which is 100cc larger and has a much higher compression ratio is currently running a 12AH SLA battery, which works just fine.  The main reason for that being it's lighter.

Also, if you do change it, be careful you don't put one in that is too big.  Which is possible, as a larger battery (if flat) then requires more time to fully charge, which it might not ever get.  Lead-acid batteries need to be kept permanently topped up, and a smaller battery is easier to keep that way.  Leaving it half-flat most of the time and just jump-starting the car will do it no favours at all.  Putting a bigger battery on a car does usually work, but only if the useage of the car means the battery gets fully topped back up again every journey.  If a vehicle is used for short journeys, a larger battery can be detrimental.

[Marshall2810]

Have you actually checked with a  multimeter if its charging or not Dez? How has this come back to you not charging or was this not in the remit of work done?  Was it charging previously or is it something daft like the belt been left off or not adjusted correctly after engine work? Hopefully you get to the bottom of it soon but a new battery is a great start imo

[LightBulbFun]

28 minutes ago, Talbot said:

the existing battery may be recoverable with a decent long charge off the vehicle on a reasonable battery charger.  Lidl are selling "ultimate speed" chargers for about £15 at the moment and I really rate them.  90% as good as a CTEK one, and about 20% the price.  I now have three of them.  They change mode as the battery charges, and don't over-charge (as some dumb chargers sometimes can).

a 35AH battery should be plenty large enough for that vehicle.. the Racing 2CV, which is 100cc larger and has a much higher compression ratio is currently running a 12AH SLA battery, which works just fine.  The main reason for that being it's lighter.

Also, if you do change it, be careful you don't put one in that is too big.  Which is possible, as a larger battery (if flat) then requires more time to fully charge, which it might not ever get.  Lead-acid batteries need to be kept permanently topped up, and a smaller battery is easier to keep that way.  Leaving it half-flat most of the time and just jump-starting the car will do it no favours at all.  Putting a bigger battery on a car does usually work, but only if the useage of the car means the battery gets fully topped back up again every journey.  If a vehicle is used for short journeys, a larger battery can be detrimental.

thats good to know on the charger front if I find myself in a Lidl ill be sure to keep my eyes peeled 

I have also got a bench-top DC Power supply from my electrical/electronics/lightbulbs hobby side of things which worked well last time  IIRC but please do correct me if I am wrong here, to charge a normal lead acid battery off such a power supply, you set it to 14.4V with a current limit of 10% of its rated Amp hour rating and then once the current draw hits 1% of the amp hour capacity of the battery it can be considered charged

 so what I did for mine was set it to 14.4V and a 3.5A limit, and let it charge up with the battery on the balcony outside so any hydrogen does not accumulate in the house and and then when it hit 0.35A I took it off charge, and it seemed to be fully charged as best I could tell (messuring the standing disconnected from anything, floating voltage with a volt meter and then when it was bunged back in REV it was clearly much happier with life)

17 minutes ago, Marshall2810 said:

Have you actually checked with a  multimeter if its charging or not Dez? How has this come back to you not charging or was this not in the remit of work done?  Was it charging previously or is it something daft like the belt been left off or not adjusted correctly after engine work? Hopefully you get to the bottom of it soon but a new battery is a great start imo

verifying with a multimeter is on the todo list  but based on how the charging light ins behaving (its on at idle, goes out as engine comes off idle, but then comes back on as you get to about 15Mph) I think I know what the issue is, 

if you look at the bottom left corner there is a inline 25A fuse from the voltage regulator box to the dynastart, and this is the main D+ voltage output from the dynastart itself and last time the charging light behaved this way, @CaptainBoom and I quickly deduced dirty contacts in the fuse holder was the problem, quick squirt of contact cleaner and scraping later, got a healthy charging voltage back to the battery, so thats going to be my first port of call  

 

speaking of electrical gubbins, I have placed an order for some more, got myself a few inline blade fuse holders coming, because I think it would be wise to replace that dynastart fuse with something less crusty and a more modern fuse type available from motor factors, and when I add that volt-meter and USB charging thingy I want to make sure that has its own little inline fuse of course  and I have also ordered a headlamp relay kit loom thingy, ya know the sort that you plug into one of the H4 bulb sockets, and the loom uses that as a switched feed to activate relays that connect the head lamps directly to the battery, this is something i'd like to have as REV's head lamp switch was replaced with a modern reproduction sort, and it does feel noticeably more flimsy then her old one, so I think it would be good to keep the electrical load off it, especially with REV's now more powerful 55W/60W H4's (which is almost a doubling in power draw vs her original Model 70 specific 36W/36W head lamp bulbs)

[LightBulbFun]

alright I know I said I was going to take a rest day, but the issue of charging was bugging me and I was feeling perticularly hungry, so I headed down to REV to have a look at things, first thing I manged to do was find a bit of a better way for me to take my toolset down with me, so I am pretty pleased with that, means less body pain there  and I even found the phone mount I lost, turns out it had actually ended up in REV's mechanical corner in the house, of course I find it the day after @st185cs very kindly said he was sending me one my way! but having a spare/2 cant hurt, maybe I can set one up for filming trips  

so after another obligtory photo of REV, I got it mounted, just priminary position for now, not yet used it any anger, but so far it seems to work in that its stuck itself to the windscreen and not fallen off, however remains to be seen if it shakes itself to bits once under way LOL

so onto the main order of the day which was look at the charging situation/the suspect fuse holder, (and scope out the regulator box area in general)

put my hands on said fuse holder and yeah... I think thats FUBAR!

just fell apart, good thing I have preemptively ordered a modern blade fuse replacement inline fuse holder, so in the coming days ill get that fitted  speaking of fuses anyone seen a fuse like this? it looks a lot like a continental fuse, but its a bit shorter and its fully round IIRC, and the body is ceramic.

this was reassuring* to see (I do know some automotive fuses of this age do have the fuse wire on the outside, but those solder blobs dont look very factory...)

safe to say I was not going anywhere today! decided against it, to save the battery anymore strain and I did not want said battery to die completely on me while I was in the middle of a 4 way junction etc!

but I took the opportunity to do a few other odd jobs on REV instead, like having a look at what would be involved in getting the regulator changed, the nut on this bolt looks fun* to get too... (the chassis tube is just adjacent of it, hopefully I can get a spanner on it to stop it turning at least)

I then looked what was involved in getting the battery removed for external charging

got some interesting views of REV  

I am not actually sure how the battery comes out! as the nut on the front seems to be welded to the carrier! sods law probably means then its the bolt against the bulkhead that comes out!

it then pretty quickly got dark, but I have a head torch that works pretty well and I think I was able to get the Horn working  and then I packed up and came upstairs, after the usual token conversation with a passing member of public "cool car! what is it?"  

so no chippy run today, but I am still quite happy with what I have managed to achive, worked out a less painful method for lugging my tools, found my phone mount and got that setup, figured out whats needed to get charging working again hopefully, had a look at how the battery is mounted, and got the horn working again  now I am eating a celebratory special chow main delivered from the local Chinese   

[Dyslexic Viking]

10 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

speaking of fuses anyone seen a fuse like this?

This is the same type of fuse that is used on my Mercedes. 

And I don't like that type of fuse holder with those fuses as on Rev so the flat fuse would be a good upgrade.

[Mr Pastry]

7 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

I am not actually sure how the battery comes out! as the nut on the front seems to be welded to the carrier! sods law probably means then its the bolt against the bulkhead that comes out!

It looks to me as if those two studs projecting underneath are passing thru sleeves in the chassis and should have nuts on them, and the studs themselves are welded to the battery clamps.  Thus. not much holding the battery down except rust in the sleeves?

Penetrating oil, screw a nut on the end of the stud to protect it, and twat it from underneath, or stick a jack under it, and see if it moves.   

[Mrs6C]

29 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

It looks to me as if those two studs projecting underneath are passing thru sleeves in the chassis and should have nuts on them, and the studs themselves are welded to the battery clamps.  Thus. not much holding the battery down except rust in the sleeves?

Penetrating oil, screw a nut on the end of the stud to protect it, and twat it from underneath, or stick a jack under it, and see if it moves.   

^^^ Think this is correct, from my memory of replacing the battery on mine. Wingnuts with spring washers to keep them under tension might be a good shout on those.

[wuvvum]

4 hours ago, bangernomics said:

charge the old one up and pop it in the boot.

What is this "boot" of which you speak?

[AnthonyG]

You know Halfords will fit batteries for you right 😉?

Obviously I don’t know the Ts and Cs and whether the £21.99 or whatever charge comes with a get out clause after they’ve spent 4 hours drilling a weld out of an Invacar…

 

[Noel Tidybeard]

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[Snake Charmer]

[plasticvandan]

Just make sure any connections with a new fuse holder are of decent quality,not those shitty plastic crimp terminals you get in packs with the thin tin crimps,that will have a lot of current going through it.may we'll be just that that is causing the issue. 037 battery is/was a common garden variety,remember having them on my Minors which ran well on them with more electrical loads.it could well be dead from years of inactivity but may respond to a charge,though I would have imagined that must have been done several times.already by the various people that have worked on it. Strange the charging problem wasn't picked up on though.shame the bodywork has deteriorated over the years,almost looks like it had a replacement nose at some point by the way the paint is falling off . Takeaway two nights on the trot? How the other half live😅 sardines on toast for tea tonight😢

[LightBulbFun]

5 hours ago, egg said:

Insert generic 'all modern 12v batteries are shit' too etc. 

Hey Dez - I might be able to get up to that there London b4 Xmas, if there's any little help I could give, happy so do to. Also, could get some analogue photos of REV...

certainly your more then welcome to drop by if you want to i, certainly some film photographs of REV would be awesome interesting in their own right  

 

also Page 451! have a bonus photo of REV from yesterdays outing  

[Noel Tidybeard]

049/048 battery is a teeny bit smoller but is more plentiful in choice

especially if you are altering leads