Ongoing P4 rectifications - ignition

[jonathan_dyane]

Small further works.

I jacked the front up to check over brakes and suspension.

Brakes look like they have been relatively recently done which is a win. Generally front suspension in good order however drop links are gubbed. Also kingpins have been greased which is incorrect, apparently they should be oiled instead. Not sure how to rectify, will have to have a think in terms of how to force out the grease.

Substandard chassis welding near master cylinder. I will resist the urge to poke! (Yet).

Also found these holes in the lower windscreen area, one is from a wiper rest that is missing not sure about the other. I've but some tape on which might reduce water ingress.

There was lots of rust on the wing inners so I have it a good wire brush, Vactan and Waxoyl underseal. At least the wings have metal to hold the wob in...

[jonathan_dyane]

Oh also I rewired the headlamps so they actually work.

Now electrically speaking I just need to fix:

Fuel gauge 

Number plate light

Heater fan

Interior lights

Reversing lamp

I also discovered the oil leak was from the sump plug; new copper washer and dry so far 😀 

 

[artdjones]

10 minutes ago, jonathan_dyane said:

Not sure how to rectify, will have to have a think in terms of how to force out the grease.

Just keep pumping oil through until oil is coming out of the other end.

[jonathan_dyane]

46 minutes ago, artdjones said:

Just keep pumping oil through until oil is coming out of the other end.

What do I need to use, I assume a 'Wanner' grease gun won't pump oil?

[GeorgeB]

Yes it will.

[jonathan_dyane]

I went for a road test which was generally successful, I feel more confident now I know the knock over bumps is the drop link not the wheel falling off.

It has plenty power to easily keep out of people's way but cornering isn't it's strong suit, not least of the lack of seat belt meaning you aren't held in to the seat.

It was good to see the front brakes look good and there are no signs of leakage. I will jack up the back end and check the back brakes (and hopefully improve the handbrake) however as yet I haven't found why the brake fluid is dropping. There is no sign of wet back plates so it isn't the wheel cylinders. Most likely explanation is the servo unfortunately (I remember @SiC had to replace his). The servo is working (to an extent, if you turn the engine off going down a hill and knock it out of gear you can certainly tell the difference in pedal effort required) however in normal use the brakes need a harder application that I would have thought they should. This and the disappearing brake fluid makes be fairly certain the servo is jiggered and gradually filling up with brake fluid...

Other than that expense and tyres it seems mainly service items required along with new coolant hoses and a thermostat.

While the engine is lovely and smooth and pulls well I have noticed if you sit at an indicated 70 to 80 it develops a misfire. Could be something ignition related breaking down under full load or perhaps fuel starvation.

All generally encouraging!

[SiC]

I got mine cheap as the previous owner thought it had a HGF from excess smoke generated. By the time I got it, there was zero brake fluid left as the real fault was the failed servo allowing the engine to consume brake fluid directly out of the master cylinder. Best fix is to retrofit a Lockheed unit. Don't bother with another Girling as it's just as expensive to get one and they invariably will fail again. Also have other weird failure cases like causing the brakes to stick on. 

[Zelandeth]

18 hours ago, jonathan_dyane said:

I went for a road test which was generally successful, I feel more confident now I know the knock over bumps is the drop link not the wheel falling off.

It has plenty power to easily keep out of people's way but cornering isn't it's strong suit, not least of the lack of seat belt meaning you aren't held in to the seat.

It was good to see the front brakes look good and there are no signs of leakage. I will jack up the back end and check the back brakes (and hopefully improve the handbrake) however as yet I haven't found why the brake fluid is dropping. There is no sign of wet back plates so it isn't the wheel cylinders. Most likely explanation is the servo unfortunately (I remember @SiC had to replace his). The servo is working (to an extent, if you turn the engine off going down a hill and knock it out of gear you can certainly tell the difference in pedal effort required) however in normal use the brakes need a harder application that I would have thought they should. This and the disappearing brake fluid makes be fairly certain the servo is jiggered and gradually filling up with brake fluid...

Other than that expense and tyres it seems mainly service items required along with new coolant hoses and a thermostat.

While the engine is lovely and smooth and pulls well I have noticed if you sit at an indicated 70 to 80 it develops a misfire. Could be something ignition related breaking down under full load or perhaps fuel starvation.

All generally encouraging!

Check the points gap and that they're clean would be my first port of call for a high rpm miss.  Any really detectable side-to-side play in the distributor shaft could also cause issues as it will mess with the dwell.

[Yoss]

16 hours ago, SiC said:

I got mine cheap as the previous owner thought it had a HGF from excess smoke generated. By the time I got it, there was zero brake fluid left as the real fault was the failed servo allowing the engine to consume brake fluid directly out of the master cylinder. Best fix is to retrofit a Lockheed unit. Don't bother with another Girling as it's just as expensive to get one and they invariably will fail again. Also have other weird failure cases like causing the brakes to stick on. 

Plus one on this. I put a Lockheed servo on the Triumph, probably 20 years ago now, and have had no trouble since. 

I also had a Wolseley Six with the above symptoms. Driving normally you wouldn't notice it but if you booted it in reverse and braked hard you'd get a cloud of white smoke out the back. 

[vulgalour]

Another for the misfire is the good old condenser breaking down issue if you're still on points and condenser, even more so if you find the problem gets progressively worse the longer you drive but generally isn't there on the first bit of driving of the day.  Seeing everyone enjoying P4s has made them no less appealing and I still can't believe they're so cheap, relatively speaking.

[Zelandeth]

3 hours ago, vulgalour said:

Another for the misfire is the good old condenser breaking down issue if you're still on points and condenser, even more so if you find the problem gets progressively worse the longer you drive but generally isn't there on the first bit of driving of the day.  Seeing everyone enjoying P4s has made them no less appealing and I still can't believe they're so cheap, relatively speaking.

You and me both.  Keep telling myself that I really need to wait till I'm somewhere with proper garage for one to live in before I look properly at a nice one...however I keep remembering how much I enjoyed the one I had, even shabby though it was in a few areas.

[jonathan_dyane]

Being away on holiday, work and rain has hindered my ability to tinker however I managed an hour or so earlier.

I had discovered that the tape I have put over the redundant holes in the scuttle have in fact resulted and a much drier interior which is most encouraging. Less good was discovering that the starter no longer operates.

All the volts were where they should be and the solenoid was still working fine so I thought I'd whip off the starter and check it over, got to be a quick and easy job right?

Hmm, discouraging. Looks very close to the downpipe but probably just enough room to wrangle it out?

Nope. Car needs to be in the air and downpipe not just loosened from the manifold but removed completely. Fortunately the downpipe looks to be a recent replacement and everything came undone without a war.

With the starter off I removed the cover to examine the brushes.

I discovered that the starter was full of wet mud which probably didn't help matters. Removing the end plate revealed one of the brush springs is broken and although I need to measure them the brushes look pretty worn down.

Hopefully a new spring, perhaps brushes and a clean of the commutator and it will live again...

[TrabbieRonnie]

Very glad to have found this thread! 

Lots of great info for a P4 newb... not to mention inspiration given the current condition of my latest acquisition.

Lovely car, cheers all.

[jonathan_dyane]

To update things to date...

My new starter brush springs arrived.

It transpired they weren't identical to the originals but with slight manipulation close enough.

I cleaned the commutator and the inside of the body/magnets with thinners and reassembled. I had measured the brushes and they were fine.

Put it back together and it worked great. HOWEVER when I had reassembled it I noticed that there was corrosion on the magnets and initially the commutator bound on them before I gave the magnets a further clean with a suede brush.

Unfortunately I have discovered that when the car is left the starter 'binds up' and I have to free it off with the square on the end of the shaft before starting. I suspect the best approach to this will be to dismantle again then clean up the magnets with emery then maybe paint them with something heat proof? Any suggestions appreciated!

After getting her running again I went for a run and it rewarded me with periodic thick whitish smoke. Given the disappearing brake fluid clearly this is the servo being knackered...

The other day I whipped off the back drums and (unfortunately no photos) found everything serviceable in there, plenty meat on the shoes and wheel cylinders are recent replacements which is great.

I also pulled out the old radio.

A look inside it didn't show anything obviously blown or melted, it may be repairable but not for me. It will probably go in the bin unless anyone wants a project in which case it's yours FOC. They were high end receivers back in the day, I think it's a Radiomobile 601. It is however positive earth only.

I decided I shouldn't really drive it until I replace the brake servo but today was such a nice day I decided to go fill up with petrol then stop at a nearby country pub. Unfortunately about a mile from home it was apparent the brakes were binding badly. I managed to limp into Asda car park and wondered how I was going to get back home. Helpfully I had brought a comprehensive tool kit.

Yes like an idiot the only thing I had with me was a miniature adjustable spanner.

I decided to see if a hard brake application would help release things. Naturally this succeeded only in locking the brakes on more firmly 🤦

I then gave the servo cylinder a good wack with the spanner. Naturally this achieved nothing.

With nothing to lose I then decided to see if the adjustable spanner would loosen one of the hydraulic pipes into the servo.

Remarkably the pipe loosened and brake fluid under pressure was ejected and I found the brakes had released. I was then able to limp home without using the foot brake (before anyone asks this was a reasonable course of action because the foot brake was still in operation and full braking was available to me if required although they would probably have locked on again).

Definitely new servo time.

[Surface Rust]

Saw this and went to send you a link to a rebuilt one I was watching on eBay, but it has disappeared - I'm hoping you got it as it was a good buy!

[jonathan_dyane]

@Surface Rust thanks for the thought but I think I am going to spend ££££ at John Wearing and buy a Lockheed servo and conversion kit.

Consensus of opinion seems to be that the Girling mk2a is hard to rebuild successfully on a DIY basis and even when professionally rebuilt tend not to last terribly well.

I could try and rebuild the servo myself however the rebuild kit isn't that cheap for what I fear would be a time consuming failed experiment.

[Zelandeth]

1 hour ago, jonathan_dyane said:

@Surface Rust thanks for the thought but I think I am going to spend ££££ at John Wearing and but a Lockheed servo and conversion kit.

Consensus of opinion seems to be that the Girling mk2a is hard to rebuild successfully on a DIY basis and even when professionally rebuilt tend not to last terribly well.

I could try and rebuild the servo myself however the rebuild kit isn't that cheap for what I fear would be a time consuming failed experiment.

Just do be aware that even in need of rebuild they're apparently quite sought after as they're used on some quite exotic stuff, so worth seeing if you can get some money back from it.

[tooSavvy]

I'm ignorant of the 'remote' servo specifics... if it is like the IMP (engine rear/servo front!!)..

Are there no 'asian' alternatives 🤔

Servos must be varied & many.... ?!? Dunno

🚙💨

[jonathan_dyane]

@tooSavvy there are 'Asian' alternatives which looks to be Lockheed knock offs. Various reports some are DOA and some work fine but tend not to last.

It's not very autoshite but at the moment it feels like spending the money and hopefully doing it once only seems like the sensible approach...

[Zelandeth]

I'd really not be wanting to trust my braking to some unnamed part from AliExpress etc.  Especially with single circuit brakes.  A P4 is a heavy old lump to stop with just the engine and handbrake if something goes awry too.

Plenty of things on a car I might try a no-name part for if the originals were on the pricey side, but the fuel system* and braking system definitely aren't areas where that's the case.

* I did buy a fuel pump rebuild kit from eBay that was about 2/3rd the price of the one offered by the marque specialist.  

It worked for about 10 miles total then left me stranded at the side of the road.  Yep, that went well.  Lesson learned.

[SiC]

4 hours ago, jonathan_dyane said:

spend ££££ at John Wearing and buy a Lockheed servo

That's what I fitted on my (then Zels). Wasn't bad to fit (did it in an evening) and completely resolved the brake issues in one hit. 

[Zelandeth]

40 minutes ago, SiC said:

That's what I fitted on my (then Zels). Wasn't bad to fit (did it in an evening) and completely resolved the brake issues in one hit. 

Worked really well too.  Brakes were bloody good for a car half it's age.  

Word of advice?  If there's anything you think you might want to take the carb and/or inlet manifold off for, do it while the servo is out.  I swore a LOT at that servo when I had to change the inlet manifold gasket on mine!

[Zelandeth]

Regarding tools, do you have the original toolkit that slots in under the glove compartment?

I could have missed it if someone hadn't told me it was there.

[jonathan_dyane]

@Zelandeth I still have the drawer but sadly the tools are long gone, MIA along with the starting handle and wheelbrace 😔

[tooSavvy]

When I collected AVAS, among many snippets of useful chat about the car [.. no TPMS, tf!] I was informed the Locking Nut was in with the spare + tools...

Important stuff 🤣

Lovely old goat you have 👍

🚙💨

[SiC]

It's the factory touch up pens in that tool kit that came in modern style aluminium container with a plastic lid that had the brush in which blew my mind - considering they were made in the late 50s/60s. 

[Stinkwheel]

Did you get a new remote servo yet? I’ve just removed a Lockheed one (I think it’s Lockheed, will check) from the mini, don’t need it on a car that size and it was intrusively installed in the passenger footwell area. 
yours for postage if you want it, it may be in need of a rebuild as I’ve never had it actually working, just an option 👍

[Stinkwheel]

[jonathan_dyane]

28 minutes ago, Stinkwheel said:

Did you get a new remote servo yet? I’ve just removed a Lockheed one (I think it’s Lockheed, will check) from the mini, don’t need it on a car that size and it was intrusively installed in the passenger footwell area. 
yours for postage if you want it, it may be in need of a rebuild as I’ve never had it actually working, just an option 👍

That would be amazing, can you take some photos of it?

[jonathan_dyane]

@Stinkwheel you beat me to it, looks like exactly what I need! 

I will send a PM 😁