Brutal decision from the DVLA

[SiC]

Reading this all through, it appears that most are afraid of needing to do an SVA and the associated Q plate which in their minds will cause it to loose value. 

The flip side, is it a bad thing that an electric converted car should be inspected more heavily than just an MOT when done?

Yes it might mean a Q plate but then it is quite heavily modified. No different to stuffing a completely different engine into an existing car that requires cutting stuff up. (Like a 1.8t in a Peugeot 403......)

If vehicle owners in the UK didn't put such a high price on number plates, I suspect all this would be a lot less of an issue. 

[SiC]

46 minutes ago, somewhatfoolish said:

should be allowed in the same way minis with tuned A series are allowed

I think it is allowed if the points adding up don't change. A tuned A-series shouldn't need the chassis modifying. If you do (i.e. chop bulkhead fit a bigger carb) then might start being in trouble. 

[SiC]

Interestingly using new/rebuilt parts on a reconstructed classic vehicle could lead to loss of plate too:

https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/reconstructed-classic-vehicles

Presumably that page relates to a rotten wreck that had lost its registration and/or making a new vehicle out of a load of old bits from various donor cars. If you still have the registration then I suspect you would be okay as it's not being re-registered?

[Dave_Q]

Reconstructed is if you made a car from an old shell (presumably without a live V5) and axles/engine/etc of the same age but from a different ID.

So a method to get a non-Q plate on a car that is a bitsa.

[SiC]

Yeah that's the thing. When restoring a laid up (e.g. barn find) car, you can't easily guarantee everything is original. Pretty much every old car that's not on the DVLA system will likely be made up of second hand bits. Problem then is you can't restore it unless you have old bits.

[New POD]

20 minutes ago, SiC said:

Yeah that's the thing. When restoring a laid up (e.g. barn find) car, you can't easily guarantee everything is original. Pretty much every old car that's not on the DVLA system will likely be made up of second hand bits. Problem then is you can't restore it unless you have old bits.

Strange how refurb works in the aerospace industry.  Was involved in a project with UTC and the serial number was the only thing that remained, after overhaul. The serial number on a new serial number plate. Every changed part, and its serial number or lot number was recorded for traceability and the customer had paid more than a brand new one. 

[lesapandre]

I think Germany allows no modifications when vehicles are TUV'd? I'm not sure about their classics?

There are companies in France electrifying 2CV's and also kits to do so - I saw them at some car shows - next time I have the opportunity I will chat to my friendly garagiste and see what the legal position is on that regards modifications etc.

I did not pap any of the electric conversations - but here is an off-the-peg 4x4 2CV set up I saw - which shows what people are up to regards mod's in France.

Having driven loads of classics IMHO you'd lose the essence of many old cars by robbing them of their IC engine.

My Datsun 260Z  was all about it's engine - driven fast on a twisting road running up and down the gearbox was what the car was all about, equally an XK Jaguar is all about the wall of torque from the engine - and an old Landrover or old Landcruiser all about it's mechanical and agricultural quality.

Remove that and you lose so much.

I'd not fancy a classic Mini in a shunt either after its been heavily modified with batteries and motors.  The car was virtually designed around the A Series engine and  fwd gearbox anyway.

Here is the 60's crash-tests on Minis. I'm not sure of the impact speed on these - I think up to 38mph - the cabins hold up well  but the front end/footwells cave right in to bring whatever was out front into the cabin.

Someone is electrifying old Rolls from the 40's 50's and 60's. Taking the Rolls engine out seems a big pity. 

There is probably too much money about being sprayed around. But each to his own. 

I'm not sure if the King has declared the mod's to his Aston Martin - next time you see him on a walkabout ask him...

https://magazine.astonmartin.com/people/green-giant-prince-charles-and-his-eco-friendly-db6

[Talbot]

blimey.  if that is what a mini looks like at 38mph in a full frontal crash test, I shudder to think how bad it would be in a modern 40/40 test (40mph, 40% overlap).   I suspect the entire cabin would collapse.

[catsinthewelder]

@Talbot

If anybody knows how to crash test a mini it's you!

[MiniMinorMk3]

14 hours ago, Talbot said:

blimey.  if that is what a mini looks like at 38mph in a full frontal crash test, I shudder to think how bad it would be in a modern 40/40 test (40mph, 40% overlap).   I suspect the entire cabin would collapse.

Any small car against a 2.5 tonne SUV will end up crushed, no matter how old it is.

[HMC]

18 hours ago, lesapandre said:

I think Germany allows no modifications when vehicles are TUV'd? I'm not sure about their classics?

There are companies in France electrifying 2CV's and also kits to do so - I saw them at some car shows - next time I have the opportunity I will chat to my friendly garagiste and see what the legal position is on that regards modifications etc.

I did not pap any of the electric conversations - but here is an off-the-peg 4x4 2CV set up I saw - which shows what people are up to regards mod's in France.

Having driven loads of classics IMHO you'd lose the essence of many old cars by robbing them of their IC engine.

My Datsun 260Z  was all about it's engine - driven fast on a twisting road running up and down the gearbox was what the car was all about, equally an XK Jaguar is all about the wall of torque from the engine - and an old Landrover or old Landcruiser all about it's mechanical and agricultural quality.

Remove that and you lose so much.

I'd not fancy a classic Mini in a shunt either after its been heavily modified with batteries and motors.  The car was virtually designed around the A Series engine and  fwd gearbox anyway.

Here is the 60's crash-tests on Minis. I'm not sure of the impact speed on these - I think up to 38mph - the cabins hold up well  but the front end/footwells cave right in to bring whatever was out front into the cabin.

Someone is electrifying old Rolls from the 40's 50's and 60's. Taking the Rolls engine out seems a big pity. 

There is probably too much money about being sprayed around. But each to his own. 

I'm not sure if the King has declared the mod's to his Aston Martin - next time you see him on a walkabout ask him...

https://magazine.astonmartin.com/people/green-giant-prince-charles-and-his-eco-friendly-db6

Re German tuv yes indeed are sticklers for originality. We had to swap some mini lite replicas for the original perforated steel wheels on the 72 1300 when we exported/ registered it in Germany.

I also seem to remember they insisted on having the “chassis” number on the body so we had to make a totally non original tag rivited on the body to match the number on the chassis, which in fact wasn’t the VIN anyway- which is on a separate plate on the bulkhead from the factory. Bizarre and possibly a mis interperetation of the regs- still they insisted and  once this was done it passed the tuv and got registered .

[MiniMinorMk3]

If anyone wants to see the build of the Red electric Mini, and how much the shell has not been altered from standard, and how the front subframe has only had additions for brackets, and no subtractions for the fit of the motor, then click on the link. You will need to sign up to the Mk1 Performance Forum to read the thread and see all the pictures of the car during the build.

mk1-forum.net - Login

Shell before 

Standard restored shell before any electrical mods

Subframe with additional engine mounting and battery mounting brackets. No cut have been made into the original frame, it has just had additions.

No modification near suspension or brake fittings.

No modification to fire wall and body cross member

Additional brackets for battery mounting

More battery mount brackets and the suspect wiring holes in boot floor. Also not cooling pump in original battery box.

Battery mounting tray in boot.

 

The DVLA have got this so wrong. This car has only had an engine/power train swap, it has not been substantially altered, especially in the subframe and body shell areas. It is fitted with original BMC/BL suspension and braking components with upgrades to shock and disc braking at the front. All these additions were part of what a factory built car could have had fitted.

[Missy Charm]

Final thought: even if the Mini were not to be penalized as a result of the 'hole' in the monocoque, it would still need a 'Q' registration on the basis of a theoretical maximum score of seven on the DVLA's points table.  

If there is a score of five for the bodyshell, three additional points need to be scored to keep the original registration.  Points can be gained for any item on the list.  In the Mini's case, let's assume it gets five for the body.  What then?  Suspension - nothing, we know that's been altered; Axles (both) - nothing, the front 'axle' has been replaced with the electric motor mechanism; Transmission - nothing, for obvious reasons; Steering assembly - call that two points, Engine (original) - nothing, no.

I can't see how the electric Mini can get any more than seven points, which means a 'Q' plate is required.

[3VOM]

"5 of these points must come from having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame."

You need to see the actual regulation or laws and get a barrister to argue the interpretation of "having the original or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame." as opposed to "having the original, or new and unmodified chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame."

Putting it another way:

having the (original) or (new and unmodified) chassis.... OR having the (original or new) and unmodified chassis...

I view it as the second option above is the DVLA interpretation, which unfortunately makes slightly more sense.

[somewhatfoolish]

Retaining the gearbox would get it back to 8pts; no-one is going to demand to look inside so most of the gears can be removed and it left in direct drive and a motor mounted on top.

  

23 hours ago, lesapandre said:

I'd not fancy a classic Mini in a shunt either after its been heavily modified with batteries and motors.  The car was virtually designed around the A Series engine and  fwd gearbox anyway.

Here is the 60's crash-tests on Minis. I'm not sure of the impact speed on these - I think up to 38mph - the cabins hold up well  but the front end/footwells cave right in to bring whatever was out front into the cabin.

Old shitters are rubbish in crash tests; hold the front page. Britons have been mucking about with cars in sheds as long as there have been cars, it's a source of considerable economic activity and an outlet for otherwise untapped creativity. It's an unwise govt that seeks to stymie that without good reason; there does need to be regulation but at the moment all we have is some misguided civil servants making shit up as they go, in part because the existing rules are flawed.

[UltraWomble]

3 hours ago, Missy Charm said:

Final thought: even if the Mini were not to be penalized as a result of the 'hole' in the monocoque, it would still need a 'Q' registration on the basis of a theoretical maximum score of seven on the DVLA's points table.  

 

I know its OT - but back to Binky... I see 5 points (at a push ignoring the modifications to the bodyshell) and I wonder if that is why the video series has gone very quiet (also EsCargo with the engine / drivetrain swap) , maybe someone at the DVLA watches You Tube

 

[LightBulbFun]

8 minutes ago, UltraWomble said:

I know its OT - but back to Binky... I see 5 points (at a push ignoring the modifications to the bodyshell) and I wonder if that is why the video series has gone very quiet (also EsCargo with the engine / drivetrain swap) , maybe someone at the DVLA watches You Tube

pretty sure the plan for Binky has always been an IVA, theres no way in hell that it was ever going to be able to retain any semblance of its original ID LOL, as I understand it the current hold up is one of them has discovered the world of arduinos and is now is typical Binky fashion fine tuning the crap out of the dash/instrument cluster setup  

 

[sheffcortinacentre]

5 hours ago, somewhatfoolish said:

Retaining the gearbox would get it back to 8pts; no-one is going to demand to look inside so most of the gears can be removed and it left in direct drive and a motor mounted on top.

  

Old shitters are rubbish in crash tests; hold the front page. Britons have been mucking about with cars in sheds as long as there have been cars, it's a source of considerable economic activity and an outlet for otherwise untapped creativity. It's an unwise govt that seeks to stymie that without good reason; there does need to be regulation but at the moment all we have is some misguided civil servants making shit up as they go, in part because the existing rules are flawed.

How do people think anything evolves.

One  That I find really ironic is that one of the world's "supercar" brands started in a shed behind a pub.

[Wack]

In 2001 I imported a Transit pickup from Belgium, it was brand spanking new but because I'd imported it not Ford it had to be taken for an IVA 

I'd driven it on Belgian plates, about 200 miles on the clock, they said it was legal to drive it on no plates at all but I didn't fancy that 

When they did the IVA test they tested it like I'd built it in my shed so it doesn't surprise me how pedantic they are. 

[DaveDorson]

The issue as I understand with that mini is more to do with someone upsetting the owners club/vehicle expert advisor by EVing a classic car rather than anything else.  

It's all utterly ridiculous and has been made a right mess of as a result of the spat.

It puts you off sharing the work you're doing and it's made the Internet and car forums a lot less interesting since everyone got scared of the DVLA pulling cars in.

[jonathan_dyane]

I'd have more sympathy if they'd left it the nice original colour rather than painting it red

[UltraWomble]

15 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

pretty sure the plan for Binky has always been an IVA, theres no way in hell that it was ever going to be able to retain any semblance of its original ID LOL

 

Im not so sure as there was a comment made on Twitter by Richard along the lines of "their MOT tester wont care about the changes  as long as its roadworthy" which makes me think they are just going to bung it in for an MOT and carry on as if its still a 998cc Mini.
I might be wrong.

[Tommyboy12]

2 hours ago, UltraWomble said:

Im not so sure as there was a comment made on Twitter by Richard along the lines of "their MOT tester wont care about the changes  as long as its roadworthy" which makes me think they are just going to bung it in for an MOT and carry on as if its still a 998cc Mini.
I might be wrong.

This was my interpretation also and there are plenty of engine swap Minis around that still have 998cc log books. People clearly have a similar attitude in a lot of cases. I do also think theyre mostly right about the MOT tester. It is not his job to determine if the car is radically altered, only that it meets the minimum MOT requirements.

Personally a Q plate wouldnt bother me. It doesnt detract from what you have built and it its just a number so why should it detract from your enjoyment of said car.

[dollywobbler]

I've seen threads suggesting DVLA are after the Escort folks too, using social media to find out just how modified some cars are. Bit worrying but then some folk in some scenes do take the piss. After all, haven't Escort Mexicos got a 140% survival rate or something?

The whole EV conversion thing is an intriguing one. Will watch with interest.

[sierraman]

3 minutes ago, dollywobbler said:

I've seen threads suggesting DVLA are after the Escort folks too, using social media to find out just how modified some cars are. Bit worrying but then some folk in some scenes do take the piss. After all, haven't Escort Mexicos got a 140% survival rate or something?

The whole EV conversion thing is an intriguing one. Will watch with interest.

On one hand it’s good to see if they pick up on these folks that are buying a set of VIN tags and then sticking them on a stolen car and passing it off as a Mexico. 

[lesapandre]

Yup - people boast on social media - and then complain someone watches them...

[artdjones]

On 1/11/2023 at 12:23 PM, HMC said:

Re German tuv yes indeed are sticklers for originality. We had to swap some mini lite replicas for the original perforated steel wheels on the 72 1300 when we exported/ registered it in Germany.

I also seem to remember they insisted on having the “chassis” number on the body so we had to make a totally non original tag rivited on the body to match the number on the chassis, which in fact wasn’t the VIN anyway- which is on a separate plate on the bulkhead from the factory. Bizarre and possibly a mis interperetation of the regs- still they insisted and  once this was done it passed the tuv and got registered .

David Vizard's Mini book had a section on ultimate road engines, with 1400cc Weber setups. Part of the info was about building "cheater" motors for Germany. That is, engines that looked standard on the outside with SUs, but having loads of mods internally, so they would pass Tüv. They weren't that far down on power compared to the non compliant engines.

[sierraman]

Fitting the electric motor to the mini was definitely the work of a complete philistine nonetheless I think effort would be better spent on giving out hefty crippling penalties to those driving round with rolling smoke maps or the wheels sitting at an acute camber - ‘stancing’ it whatever the fuck it is they call it. That’s going to be something that impacts road safety, not some idiot that thinks a mini is too noisy and wants some token gesture to show he’s saving the environment. 

[timolloyd]

The OLLI brigade must be shitting themselves too.

[cobblers]

6 minutes ago, timolloyd said:

The OLLI brigade must be shitting themselves too.

Whoever has custody of the shared brain cell this week might be briefly nervous