Further adventures of the Renault 6 - update p7 - Honin' In The Honeyard

[vulgalour]

When I put the engine back together in my 6, putting all the things back in the same way they came out, turned out a couple of caps/shells were the wrong way around which was causing it to bind up.  I don't know how the machine shop identified the issue, but they did and sorted it.  So I'd say orientation and position of big end caps probably is quite important based on that experience.

Good luck with the rebuild, if you get it all back together and working again it should be immensely rewarding.

[djoptix]

2 hours ago, somewhatfoolish said:

I don't know the specifics of Cleon lumps but are the big end caps marked up for position and orientation? Wailing and gnashing of teeth may occur on reassembly if not.

Wailing and gnashing of teeth is guaranteed, but the shells are still in the caps and the caps only go one way - I'll go and take some closeup photos tomorrow though to make sure I can get them back the same way. Thanks for the warning! There is a slight difference in the shells, one end has a tiny ramped cutout which is presumably an oil gallery of some sort.

[Mr Pastry]

3 minutes ago, djoptix said:

one end has a tiny ramped cutout which is presumably an oil gallery of some sort.

It's a locating lug.   

[djoptix]

5 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

It's a locating lug.   

On the crank side??

Edit - I'm now not sure it was on the crank side - m'memory's not what it used to be you know...

[Zelandeth]

If you haven't already get yourself a pot of tipp-ex and a paint marker.  That way you've a way of clearly labelling things when they're separated from the engine if they're from a specific place.

Ziplock bags aplenty are also your friend.  There's no way I'd have got all the Lada fuel injection stuff to go together so easily if I hadn't bagged and labelled every single bit of wire, nut and washer as it came off the donor car.

[djoptix]

Just now, Zelandeth said:

If you haven't already get yourself a pot of tipp-ex and a paint marker.  That way you've a way of clearly labelling things when they're separated from the engine if they're from a specific place.

Ziplock bags aplenty are also your friend.  There's no way I'd have got all the Lada fuel injection stuff to go together so easily if I hadn't bagged and labelled every single bit of wire, nut and washer as it came off the donor car.

I bought 500 of these a while ago - https://cupsdirect.co.uk/products/microwavable-containers-lid-combo-range?variant=23407257539&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImba069eg6wIV2evtCh2hWAGzEAQYAyABEgJWo_D_BwE (though not from there, those are expensive!!)

All the parts I've removed so far have either gone in bags or in those, and bolts have gone back in the block wherever possible. I'm sure I will still manage to mix things up!

[somewhatfoolish]

43 minutes ago, djoptix said:

On the crank side??

Edit - I'm now not sure it was on the crank side - m'memory's not what it used to be you know...

The locating lug is on the outside and locates in the conrod/conrod endcap/main bearing cap etc but because of the way they're made the bearing shell has a corresponding ramp thing on the inside; it doesn't do anything. As Z says get some tipp-ex and make copious marks so things go back together as they came apart, although degreasing is necessary as I doubt it will take reliably otherwise and could be wiped off accidentally. In the good old bad old days you'd do this marking with a hammer and centre punch(gently!) but paint is easier and if you make a mistake it can be corrected rather than cried over.

[djoptix]

Just now, somewhatfoolish said:

The locating lug is on the outside and locates in the conrod/conrod endcap/main bearing cap etc but because of the way they're made the bearing shell has a corresponding ramp thing on the inside; it doesn't do anything.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

[Slowsilver]

7 hours ago, djoptix said:

Unfortunately I can't remove the crank because you have to take the timing chain off, and to take the timing chain off you have to remove the cam chainring, and I haven't got a gear puller. I'll have to get one this week.

I didn't need a puller to take the chain and pulleys off Bob's original engine. Just removed the camshaft sprocket nut then eased the pulleys off alternately with a tyre lever. They are keyed onto the shafts with Woodruff keys, not a taper, so shouldn't be particularly tight.
 

[djoptix]

8 hours ago, Slowsilver said:

I didn't need a puller to take the chain and pulleys off Bob's original engine. Just removed the camshaft sprocket nut then eased the pulleys off alternately with a tyre lever. They are keyed onto the shafts with Woodruff keys, not a taper, so shouldn't be particularly tight.

Thanks @Slowsilver - my camshaft sprocket doesn't seem to have a nut though? 

[Mr Pastry]

1 hour ago, djoptix said:

my camshaft sprocket doesn't seem to have a nut though? 

That's just pressed on.  Can I suggest that you do a bit of research about the reassembly and timing procedure before pulling it off?   Some info on the web but what I have seen is predictably useless.

You can't just bash it back on with a hammer and as you have limited facilities ,and don't need to get the cam out, leaving it in place might be an option. 

I think one or more of the liners will have to come out anyway, so maybe  leave the crank in place, mains back on, head off, and knock the pistons and liners through.

[MorrisItalSLX]

Is there a removable link in the chain that can be undone?

[djoptix]

1 hour ago, Mr Pastry said:

That's just pressed on.  Can I suggest that you do a bit of research about the reassembly and timing procedure before pulling it off?   Some info on the web but what I have seen is predictably useless.

You can't just bash it back on with a hammer and as you have limited facilities ,and don't need to get the cam out, leaving it in place might be an option. 

I think one or more of the liners will have to come out anyway, so maybe  leave the crank in place, mains back on, head off, and knock the pistons and liners through.

@MorrisItalSLX I did wonder that too, but no.

I think what I will do is: Mark both pulleys and also the chain where it wraps them. Then when I remove the cam pulley, I can make sure I get back exactly the same crank/cam relationship. But @Mr Pastry you may have a point. I'll do some considering. Luckily more considering means more time to let the diesel soak in...

The ignition timing is already gone because I've removed the dizzy and drive gear, but I think the Haynes has instructions on setting that. The flywheel is marked for TDC and there's a little pointer hanging into the bellhousing to line it up with.

I have it on good authority that these engines are non-interference so I don't need to worry about pistons meeting valves.

[Tadhg Tiogar]

God Almighty, this engine looks as though it's going to fight you all the way!

[somewhatfoolish]

1 hour ago, Tadhg Tiogar said:

God Almighty, this engine looks as though it's going to fight you all the way!

Just your average day repairing a french engine then.

[Mr Pastry]

If it was me, I think I'd have one more attempt at freeing it after a good soak in diesel, but if that didn't work I would look for another engine. 

[djoptix]

34 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

If it was me, I think I'd have one more attempt at freeing it after a good soak in diesel, but if that didn't work I would look for another engine. 

Yes. I plan on both

[jonathan_dyane]

18 hours ago, djoptix said:

Wailing and gnashing of teeth is guaranteed, but the shells are still in the caps and the caps only go one way - I'll go and take some closeup photos tomorrow though to make sure I can get them back the same way.

Yes but bearing caps are matched and should go back on the same conrod or main they came from.

It’s usual if they aren’t already marked to dot mark them . .. ... .... to the corresponding cylinder and rod.

[djoptix]

... I have them in numbered tubs. 

(and the main bearings are all of a different design, though admittedly I'm not sure which way the symmetrical centre bearing cap goes on) 

[djoptix]

No movement yet. Interestingly, the diesel has drained down #2 cylinder - even below the level of the skirt. WTF?

Yes, it's clearly all going to have to come apart. I was going to do a bit more on it today but unexpectedly had to spend rather a long time sorting this out.

That's the remains of a bleed nipple from the big brake upgrade for the 9-5.

Forgive the full details here but I'm actually rather proud of my perseverance on this one. The other three bleed nipples I had managed to get free.

• Worked this one carefully backwards and forwards with 9mm ring spanner, gently applying more pressure until I sheared it off. FUCKIT
• Clamped remaining bit of bleed nipple in vice and tried to turn the caliper off it. Nope, the bleed nipple just crumpled.
• Cut a slot in the remains with grinder and used screwdriver. Half of the remains broke off.
• Ground the remains flat, drilled the middle. Broke drill bit.
• Got another drill bit. Drilled a bit lower. Put thread extractor in. Clamped thread extractor in vice. Turned caliper. Snapped thread extractor off flush with the end.
• Put M6 square nut on it, welded the nut to the remains of the stud. Snapped it off.
• Tried again with another nut. Snapped that one off too.
• Tried to drill the stud extractor out, failed (broke another drill bit), put M8 nut on it, welded that to remains (weld pool inside nut etc), didn't work.
• Persevered and drilled out the stud extractor. Put an M5 bolt in the hole, welded it to the remains of the nipple. Snapped the bolt off under the head (i.e. the weld and the corrosion was stronger than the bolt)
• Put another M5 bolt in, welded it, same result.
• Drilled it out a bit bigger for the next size stud extractor. Stud extractor just chewed at the top but didn't bite.
• Drilled a bit deeper (worried that I was going to hit the caliper). Stud extractor bit more, but ultimately just chewed the sides out again (this bleed nipple must be really soft).
• Knocked the sides of the nipple in with a sharp chisel.
• Tried stud extractor again, no dice.
• Ran a bead of weld around the caliper on the outside, hoping the heat would pull the outer thread out a bit, but the thread extractor still didn't work.
• Put another M5 bolt in. Succeeded in welding the bolt to the caliper itself. ?  Separated with grinder. Bolt came out, but the nipple didn't.
• Drilled hole even deeper. Filled the resulting hole with weld, thinking that I could then drill into it again for the extractor. Turns out weld is much harder than my drill bits.
• Almost at giving-up stage, I put another M8 nut on top and continued with the weld pool filling up the nut.
• Put the nut in the vice and turned the caliper, fully expecting it to shear off. But it didn't! It came free!!!!!! It resisted all the way but it came out. Even better, it looks like I didn't drill into the caliper or the threads themselves, so hopefully I can just order a new nipple and this caliper will be OK - ££s saved.

Celebratory kebab later.

[somewhatfoolish]

Unless rusted to fuck there is a passage past the piston rings via the ring gaps that diesel will escape through.

[Kringle]

Fuck me! I was waiting for the bit where you finally hit the Earth's molten core.

Bob is in safe hands. Amazing.

[djoptix]

13 hours ago, somewhatfoolish said:

Unless rusted to fuck there is a passage past the piston rings via the ring gaps that diesel will escape through.

Ignore me, I was being a moron.

I was thinking of the piston like an upturned cup, and so I couldn't see how the diesel could be disappearing when the level goes below the edge of the cup [piston skirt] when the engine is upside down.

However, I had forgotten that of course there must be a hole in the side of the piston too, otherwise one couldn't get the gudgeon pin in and out... ?

[bunglebus]

Jesus you've got some patience, I've tried drilling through both broken drill bits and a broken tap, might as well use a plastic drill bit for all the effect it has. Tried welding nuts onto broken studs too, with no reward other than getting burnt.

That caliper would have learned to fly if it was mine

[djoptix]

Research has shown that this engine does indeed have timing marks. There is one on the crank wheel and one on the cam wheel. You line them up with the centres of the crankshaft and camshaft, and they should pass through two chain links on the outside. Like so:

 

Closeup - here's the one on the crank wheel

 

...and the cam wheel.

 

Armed with this knowledge, and having still not bought a gear puller, I used the approved* tool (big pry bar) to work the cam wheel off. Slowly slowly.

 

Success. It's off.

 

I then removed the tensioner mount and then that whole big plate you can see, and finally was able to lift the crank out.

 

As you can see, cylinder 2 (or perhaps it's 3) has let the diesel past the rings, but the other three haven't. Hey ho. Head off tonight perhaps.

All the gudgeon pins are pretty free now, I can move each of the con rods back and forth, whereas the piston that came out of the previous engine is borderline solid. What's more, now that the timing chain is off, I'm able to turn the camshaft, and it will successfully complete a whole rotation. There is nasty corrosion on the cam lobes but I'm super happy that it will turn through 360 degrees. It's definitely freeing off.

 

So what now?

If I have time this evening, I'll continue to try and knock the pistons down (up) the bores. Then the next step is to take the head off. Then I'll knock the pistons down the bores and out the bottom. I'm thinking that if I do this, and the liners are salvageable, I can get away without taking the liners out. I'll just clean them up in situ and reassemble with new rings.

Of course if they're utterly corroded to buggery then I will reassess, but I need to get a running engine in the car, I can't have it drag on all winter...

[jonathan_dyane]

Trying to push the pistons up will only jam them tighter into the rusty bores, you need to take the head off and push them down.

[Talbot]

20 hours ago, djoptix said:

Then the next step is to take the head off. Then I'll knock the pistons down the bores and out the bottom. I'm thinking that if I do this, and the liners are salvageable, I can get away without taking the liners out.

I suspect that unless you clamp the liners very well indeed, the seal at the base of the liner will be broken and you'll have to remove them regardless.

Is it that much of a ballache to remove the liners?  I was under the impression that you simply clean up and re-fit the liners with a new gasket at the bottom (possibly thickness-selected to get the correct liner protrusion), and clamp them down before re-fitting the pistons.  That said, I've never worked on a Renault wet-liner engine, so I may be talking bollocks.

Also, will any of the pistons rotate slightly in their bores?  That's usually a good indication that they are free.  I'm assuming the rings on this engine aren't pegged in place?

[djoptix]

1 hour ago, jonathan_dyane said:

Trying to push the pistons up will only jam them tighter into the rusty bores, you need to take the head off and push them down.

Good point, I hadn't thought of that. Thanks.

1 hour ago, Talbot said:

I suspect that unless you clamp the liners very well indeed, the seal at the base of the liner will be broken and you'll have to remove them regardless.

Is it that much of a ballache to remove the liners?  I was under the impression that you simply clean up and re-fit the liners with a new gasket at the bottom (possibly thickness-selected to get the correct liner protrusion), and clamp them down before re-fitting the pistons.  That said, I've never worked on a Renault wet-liner engine, so I may be talking bollocks.

Also, will any of the pistons rotate slightly in their bores?  That's usually a good indication that they are free.  I'm assuming the rings on this engine aren't pegged in place?

You're probably right @Talbot. I'm being a bit irrational about it, I suppose. I've come at all of this thinking that I would probably be able to stick a battery and some fresh fuel in it and just drop it in. That has turned out to very much not be the case ?

I guess from the start I just had TEH FEAR of taking the liners out because it seems like a step towards engine-dismantled-chaos that I might not be able to get back from. But I'm here now!

[Mally]

On 8/16/2020 at 11:17 PM, somewhatfoolish said:

The locating lug is on the outside and locates in the conrod/conrod endcap/main bearing cap etc but because of the way they're made the bearing shell has a corresponding ramp thing on the inside; it doesn't do anything. 

I'm a little late to the party, but for future reference.

The lug mentioned on the shell, sits into the conrod/cap recess as said. Their function is to prevent the shells from turning when cap is fitted to rod.

The lug on the cap hits solid metal on the rod, and vice versa.

Without the lug the 2 halves of shell would be free to spin.

You can get them wrong, ask me how I know.

[sloth]

loving this. add more diesel to the bores btw. micx it with atf. it has rust removal properties.

 

i do wonder what it would be like with an 11 turbo engine....