Further adventures of the Renault 6 - update p7 - Honin' In The Honeyard

[Talbot]

14 hours ago, djoptix said:

There's a tub of red diesel at work so I'll scrounge some

This will work far better than WD40 to penetrate around the rings.  I'd be inclined to have the engine the "correct" way up, put 200ml into each cylinder bore through the spark plug hole, then leave it for a few days.  It will work it's way through just about anything.

[djoptix]

You know how I was singing the praises of my brilliant Makita impact driver which I found really useful and really liked?

Night before last I was changing the tyres on Mrs Optix's Berlingo and I must have left it on the drive in front of the car. I realised this morning when it wasn't in my toolbox. It's gone, of course. Fuck my life and fuck me for being such a dickhead.

(probably should have put this in the grumpy thread)

[djoptix]

So instead of my ~£150 genuine one I've just ordered one of these. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/233652463078

This should be fun. Free returns though  

[wuvvum]

Did they not nick the battery then?

[djoptix]

Just now, wuvvum said:

Did they not nick the battery then?

They did but I'm fully invested in Makita so I've got loads. Doesn't make losing a battery any less annoying but I don't need to buy another one specifically for this.

I bet the one on it was one of my new 5ah ones rather than the couple of shitty old 3ah ones I had kicking around... mutter mutter grumble grumble.

[djoptix]

Engine is now full of diesel. 

 

I'm going to give it a few days this way up, then turn it over and pour it down the bores from the other side. 

 

Still not even a hint of movement, but softly softly etc. Until next week when I will break out a succession of ever bigger hammers.

Chikita has not arrived yet. 

[jonathan_dyane]

Personally I wouldn’t be hammering I would be going at the crank pulley with a big spanner and rocking if I was where you are now.

If it didn’t respond to that I would be whipping off the head and tapping the problem pistons down then cleaning up the bores with fine emery.

If I got that far I would definitely be replacing the rings though.

[Tamworthbay]

Diesel has never failed me yet, it can take a good while though.

[djoptix]

40 minutes ago, jonathan_dyane said:

Personally I wouldn’t be hammering I would be going at the crank pulley with a big spanner and rocking if I was where you are now.

If it didn’t respond to that I would be whipping off the head and tapping the problem pistons down then cleaning up the bores with fine emery.

If I got that far I would definitely be replacing the rings though.

That's the incredibly annoying thing - there isn't a big nut to rock it with. There's a gear wheel on one end (with a smooth central shaft) and a flywheel on the other.

I could weld something up to do the job though, on the clutch end...

[bunglebus]

A bar with holes drilled and longer bolts in place of a couple of the ones that hold the flywheel on?

[Tadhg Tiogar]

1 hour ago, Tamworthbay said:

Diesel has never failed me yet, it can take a good while though.

A week? Two weeks?

[Tamworthbay]

1 minute ago, Tadhg Tiogar said:

A week? Two weeks?

Sometimes overnight, worst was a 52 AJS that had sat for about 50 years, that took about four weeks. Amazingly the bore survived and was ok after a light hone. Mostly it seems to take about 4-7 days.

[egg]

Diesel failed on the Villiers in my In**car, sadly.

[somewhatfoolish]

This had water in, so all the liner above the rings is likely to be toast and I suspect diesel will not have any effect; I could be wrong though and it doesn't hurt to try.

[PhilA]

It's a cheap, low effort thing that if it ends up being completely unusable you don't cry for having spent many monies on special tools or the such and then find its no good.

Once it's apart them it's time to determine if it's good to spend your money on repair and tools, or if you save your money and spend it on another engine.

[Tamworthbay]

58 minutes ago, somewhatfoolish said:

This had water in, so all the liner above the rings is likely to be toast and I suspect diesel will not have any effect; I could be wrong though and it doesn't hurt to try.

If you know that then it would be worth using something like deox C solution first. It will remove all the rust and then the diesel can work it’s magic. It works overnight and goes from cleanish to bad kidney infection piss yellow.

[PhilA]

You do need to watch deox-C on a few things- it's unsuitable for use on machined cast iron faces for instance.

[Fumbler]

20 minutes ago, PhilA said:

You do need to watch deox-C on a few things- it's unsuitable for use on machined cast iron faces for instance.

This. I shouldn't imagine it will hurt the cylinder liners any more than they currently are, however.

[djoptix]

The thing is - regarding rocking the crank - given what I've seen so far, I reckon there is:

• Cylinder 4 - corrosion up to the rings
• Cylinder 3 - probably minor corrosion
• Cylinder 2 - corrosion above the rings
• Cylinder 1 - probably minor corrosion

Given that every cylinder will need freeing off, that means that I need to transmit some shock loads to each piston. I don't want to abuse the crank and main bearings to achieve that. I'll try alternating diesel above and below the pistons, and take the crank and main bearings out. I have a plan to make something to pull the piston from the bottom of the block.

If I can get the pistons moving but maintain the timing, then I'm thinking I can refit the starter and see if that will turn the engine over.

Question - if I take off the crank and main bearings, how do I correctly time them up again? It would be somewhat* disappointing to do a load of work and then bend the valves once I put the timing chain back on.

[Mr Pastry]

1 hour ago, djoptix said:

Question - if I take off the crank and main bearings, how do I correctly time them up again? It would be somewhat* disappointing to do a load of work and then bend the valves once I put the timing chain back on.

You can mark the crank and cam sprockets if there are no timing marks there already, but you don't need to worry about it at this stage, because if you can free the pistons you will have to get the head off anyway and look at the valves, and do something about the rings and bores if you want it to run properly.  At that stage you can find TDC accurately and time it properly. 

This keyhole surgery stuff is all very well, but realistically it is a bit too far gone for that, and you will end up with the whole thing in pieces anyway.

[Tamworthbay]

13 hours ago, PhilA said:

You do need to watch deox-C on a few things- it's unsuitable for use on machined cast iron faces for instance.

If the cylinders are rusted to the point they are stopping the pistons moving then they will need a rebore anyway so it isn’t going to do any harm. If you are at the point of needing it you are way beyond new rings and a quick home.

[PhilA]

Someone who knows the Cleon better than me will have to answer this- interference engine yes but if it's accidentally turned too far against a rusted stuck valve will the piston crown push squarely against the valve and push it back up the guide, or will it do like the Fonte and push in the same plane but only on the edge of the valve head, giving a propensity to bend the valve?

[junkyarddog]

1 hour ago, Mr Pastry said:

You can mark the crank and cam sprockets if there are no timing marks there already, but you don't need to worry about it at this stage, because if you can free the pistons you will have to get the head off anyway and look at the valves, and do something about the rings and bores if you want it to run properly.  At that stage you can find TDC accurately and time it properly. 

This keyhole surgery stuff is all very well, but realistically it is a bit too far gone for that, and you will end up with the whole thing in pieces anyway.

Yes,if this engine was dry stored and seized then diesel is the way to go to try and free it off,but this lump has been sitting outside with water in it for years.

It needs to be opened up.

Sad but true.

[Mr Pastry]

Can you even get oversize pistons for these?  I suspect it will be a set of pistons and liners, though probably not so different in cost to a rebore. (££££s.),   Still worth proceeding, as there might just be enough parts from the 2 engines to make a runner.  They are tough engines. 

[bunglebus]

Can you remove the valve train/rockers etc? Then all the valves will be closed so there's no chance of bending them (assuming none are rusted open)

[SiC]

Sounds like you have some diesel but if you need some more, this garage do cherry at 68.5p/l from the nozzle:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/K6F998KTFGqBGzWS9

I imagine there must be other places a bit nearer - possibly other Harvest Energy forecourts. 

[djoptix]

6 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

This keyhole surgery stuff is all very well, but realistically it is a bit too far gone for that, and you will end up with the whole thing in pieces anyway.

 

You're probably right, but I need to arrive at that point my own way. If I had just gone at it and pulled it apart from the start, I would have ended up losing bits... and if I'd known that this engine was in a bit of a state too, I probably wouldn't have started at all. Which, you could argue, might have been better for all concerned ?

Bear in mind I've never done anything this in depth with an engine, not even a head gasket. So to a certain extent I'm making it up as I go along.

So here we are, another weekend and a little bit of progress. Main bearings and big end shells are all now removed.

 

Unfortunately I can't remove the crank because you have to take the timing chain off, and to take the timing chain off you have to remove the cam chainring, and I haven't got a gear puller. I'll have to get one this week.

The cam is moving a little bit more freely now, and the oil  pump/dizzy drive is moving as it should. So that's good!

There is some scoring on the big end shells but I'm not going to worry about that for now. Hopefully between these and the engine from @Slowsilver I can make a full good set. Although this is all a huge pain in the bum, it is kind of nice to think that some of Bob's original engine might end up in this one.

 

To mix it up I then went and was thwarted by the Saab instead. Turns out

• Saab 9-5 rear caliper bolts are the tightest things known to man
• Saab 9-5 front caliper bolts are E-something-bigger-than-20 Torx.

[Mr Pastry]

2 hours ago, djoptix said:

Unfortunately I can't remove the crank because you have to take the timing chain off,

I think you are doing fine.  Will the timing chain come off if you remove the tensioner first, and then you can leave the sprockets in place?

[djoptix]

18 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Will the timing chain come off if you remove the tensioner first, and then you can leave the sprockets in place?

Alas no. I did try that but it's been cunningly designed by a French man so that there's not quite enough slack to remove either sprocket. 

Bonus ineptitude, guess where I dropped the tensioner once I'd removed it;

1. On the bench - no problem

2. On the floor - no problem 

3. In a pile of sand ?

[somewhatfoolish]

4 hours ago, djoptix said:

 

You're probably right, but I need to arrive at that point my own way. If I had just gone at it and pulled it apart from the start, I would have ended up losing bits... and if I'd known that this engine was in a bit of a state too, I probably wouldn't have started at all. Which, you could argue, might have been better for all concerned ?

Bear in mind I've never done anything this in depth with an engine, not even a head gasket. So to a certain extent I'm making it up as I go along.

So here we are, another weekend and a little bit of progress. Main bearings and big end shells are all now removed.

 

Unfortunately I can't remove the crank because you have to take the timing chain off, and to take the timing chain off you have to remove the cam chainring, and I haven't got a gear puller. I'll have to get one this week.

The cam is moving a little bit more freely now, and the oil  pump/dizzy drive is moving as it should. So that's good!

There is some scoring on the big end shells but I'm not going to worry about that for now. Hopefully between these and the engine from @Slowsilver I can make a full good set. Although this is all a huge pain in the bum, it is kind of nice to think that some of Bob's original engine might end up in this one.

 

To mix it up I then went and was thwarted by the Saab instead. Turns out

• Saab 9-5 rear caliper bolts are the tightest things known to man
• Saab 9-5 front caliper bolts are E-something-bigger-than-20 Torx.

I don't know the specifics of Cleon lumps but are the big end caps marked up for position and orientation? Wailing and gnashing of teeth may occur on reassembly if not.