invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[High Jetter]

Essential Disabled Insurance?

[JJ0063]

Electronic data interchange 👍

Basically how the insurance scheme transmits the data from the broker insurance panel to the underwriter

[High Jetter]

19 minutes ago, JJ0063 said:

Electronic data interchange 👍

Basically how the insurance scheme transmits the data from the broker insurance panel to the underwriter

Oh. FAX 🤣

[Christine]

Got your Trouble decker RM  yet LBF?  

 

[auntiemaryscanary]

Morning lbf,

A chap off a film forum I'm on posted this:

(Taken on a Fuji GW690 for camera bores)

He also gave me a link to one other he's photographed. I'm sure you are fully aware of both of these.

https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_id=10407404%40N00&sort=date-taken-desc&text=invacar&view_all=1

[LightBulbFun]

9 hours ago, auntiemaryscanary said:

Morning lbf,

A chap off a film forum I'm on posted this:

(Taken on a Fuji GW690 for camera bores)

He also gave me a link to one other he's photographed. I'm sure you are fully aware of both of these.

https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_id=10407404%40N00&sort=date-taken-desc&text=invacar&view_all=1

indeed I am, but its still a very nice shot, I appreciate you sharing  WOO848S is very much one of those I want to get some details on, its been in preservation for quite a long time, but I have sadly never quite been able to track it down fully, at one point WOO848S and MHJ107P where owned by 2 brothers together, so they would often be spotted together, but MHJ107P was moved on, I think WOO848S was retained

[LightBulbFun]

On 26/02/2023 at 10:33, LightBulbFun said:

Whoa! check this out its another TWC! TWC750K, not DVLA live so it came off the road within a couple years of being photographed 

https://www.facebook.com/olivier.stourme/posts/pfbid0367cPhnEhZQto6zBVDi6QbGTcaTsUJqTAdT8FiMniaCyTxnxx8oJFxu2i97wLWipnl

always wondered if any of TWC's sister cars had been papped! Obviously like most other Model 70's there was a whole block of TWC's TWC701K-TWC800K

so the possibility was always out there, but the statistical chances of it where slim, so this is very awesome to see! its also awesome to see as its a highly original spec car, and shows what @dollywobbler's TWC would of looked like when new (give or take some wheel trims!)

complete with original rear lights, dash-change still even (which is pretty interesting to see still present in 1980) and  Tippers pressed number plates  

recent discovery from Stuart this time, from "Britain's Buses in the Seventies" its another TWC! , this time TWC774K would of only been a year old in that picture, but not DVLA live so did not make it past 1983

[dollywobbler]

Wow! That's ace. A TWC actually in service. Though of course it confirms that I should fit black number plates. Maybe if we ever get around to that body refurb.

[Noel Tidybeard]

2 minutes ago, dollywobbler said:

Wow! That's ace. A TWC actually in service. Though of course it confirms that I should fit black number plates. Maybe if we ever get around to that body refurb.

only if they white on black cos black & silver look fake

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, dollywobbler said:

Wow! That's ace. A TWC actually in service. Though of course it confirms that I should fit black number plates. Maybe if we ever get around to that body refurb.

dont forget about the first other TWC I found!  

https://autoshite.com/topic/32723-lightbulbfuns-invacar-general-ramble-thread-index-on-page-1-survivors-lists-on-pages-24134-adgecutlers-invacar-mk12-restoration-from-page-186-onwards-still-harping-on/page/301/#comment-2710791

funnily enough you said something similar about the number plates back then when I found above, which I admit did make me chuckle because I had been telling you for a long time that TWC would have originally worn Silver on black plates, but you did not want to hear it so to speak 

it certainly would be interesting to see TWC back on a set of Silver on black plates, but only as long as they are the correct type size and font/type!

1 hour ago, Noel Tidybeard said:

only if they white on black cos black & silver look fake

for London Transport buses I holy heartedly agree, anything other then white painted/transfer lettering on a black background looks wrong

 

but for other vehicles it very much depends on what they had in period, for Invacars they explicitly used Tippers pressed plates (of a unique size for Invacar Mk12's) always explicitly borderless for the silver on black plates

I am very much a rivet counter when it comes to number plates  

 

its the cheap eBay special silver on black number plates that look especially bad because not only are they the wrong font/font size, but the way they are stamped means the digits are very soft, and they are always very dull in general, its nothing like a proper sharp period pressed plate

if you look at a period pressed plate you will note the digits are quite sharply pressed into the metal and period pressed black plates also most of the time had their digits polished which the eBay specials dont have

[brummiejon]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

dont forget about the first other TWC I found!  

https://autoshite.com/topic/32723-lightbulbfuns-invacar-general-ramble-thread-index-on-page-1-survivors-lists-on-pages-24134-adgecutlers-invacar-mk12-restoration-from-page-186-onwards-still-harping-on/page/301/#comment-2710791

funnily enough you said something similar about the number plates back then when I found above, which I admit did make me chuckle because I had been telling you for a long time that TWC would have originally worn Silver on black plates, but you did not want to hear it so to speak 

it certainly would be interesting to see TWC back on a set of Silver on black plates, but only as long as they are the correct type size and font/type!

for London Transport buses I holy heartedly agree, anything other then white painted/transfer lettering on a black background looks wrong

 

but for other vehicles it very much depends on what they had in period, for Invacars they explicitly used Tippers pressed plates (of a unique size for Invacar Mk12's) always explicitly borderless for the silver on black plates

I am very much a rivet counter when it comes to number plates  

 

its the cheap eBay special silver on black number plates that look especially bad because not only are they the wrong font/font size, but the way they are stamped means the digits are very soft, and they are always very dull in general, its nothing like a proper sharp period pressed plate

if you look at a period pressed plate you will note the digits are quite sharply pressed into the metal and period pressed black plates also most of the time had their digits polished which the eBay specials dont have

I've always used Jepsons for my motorbike restorations...

https://www.jepsonandco.com/ready-made-plates/vintage-classic-plates/

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, brummiejon said:

I've always used Jepsons for my motorbike restorations...

https://www.jepsonandco.com/ready-made-plates/vintage-classic-plates/

Tippers Vintage plates is what I recommend for Invacars https://tippersvintageplates.co.uk/

because they are spin off from the original Tippers Southend company a while back https://www.tipper-signs.co.uk/

and thankfully the Tippers Vintage plate company inherited all their original diesets from back in the day, and this is significant because Tippers was the number plate supplier to Invacar Ltd from 1967 to the end of Invacar production in 1978, so we are in the fortunate position  that someone with Invacar can in theory get 100% period plates remade should they wish to

although sadly Tippers Vintage plates is very much a modern business that knows little of its own heritage, 

when getting the plates remade for Brian above, well they themselves did not know the significance of that special serifed 1 but thankfully once they where told what to look for they where able to find it in their diesets, they called it an "old fashion style 1" but no, not old fashioned  at all its just part of the unique font-set that Tippers used in period, as seen on REV's original period plate for example  

sadly because of this for all modern reproductions they default to using what I think is technically the letter I for a 1!

I do I find it a bit sad how they dont know their own history like that, at one point @Dick Longbridge showed them REV's plate and one of the chaps there thought it was from 1920's!

https://autoshite.com/topic/44205-dicks-lambretta-adventures-wu-history-update/page/2/#comment-2586199

that really saddened me, but I take solace in the fact that they do have all the original die sets, so if you know what your wanting you can direct them accordingly, I just would of hoped a company that prides itself in making period correct/historically accurate number plates, would know better then that! 

 

although it still remains to be seen if they can do the sharp corner borders of a proper period tippers plate, their modern pressed plates use a rounded corners which is not correct 

but I am hopeful if one explicitly asks for sharp corner boarders they will have the dieset from back in the day to do it, but it remains to be seen! 

 

 

but for AC Cars Ltd vehicles its a bit of a different ball game, its not actually known who exactly made their silver on black number plates,

their Retroreflective plates where made by Ace plates and sadly I have not found anyone who has an Ace dieset

(with Ace plates note the unique serif on the P and the 1 that is different to the style of Serif on the Tippers plates that feature on REV, and also note the rounded corners on the Ace plate vs the sharp corners on the Tippers plate)

[Christine]

Have we had this one?

 

 

 

[LightBulbFun]

32 minutes ago, Christine said:

Have we had this one?

 

 

 

its been featured a couple times I think  I have certainly seen it shared around a few times, heres the original  

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tigerzombie/5173624067/

however its an AC Petite, 3 wheeler Microcar, not an invalid vehicle, its a close relation to the AC All Weather Tricycle by way of the Buckland runabout, under the hood tho  

 

[LightBulbFun]

so last year while doing battle with the DVLA over the whole Invacare thing, I notice the DVLA had launched a new service, that is one can create a centralised DVLA account 

https://dvladigital.blog.gov.uk/2023/11/23/introducing-the-driver-and-vehicles-account/

https://www.gov.uk/driver-vehicles-account

so I finally got round to making one today (I did not do it last year since I did not want to chuck any more variables at this whole Invacare thing while active communication was on going etc)

 

and its been quite interesting to explore it actually gives you to some interesting extra details about your vehicle and its record with the DVLA, even a couple extra details that are not displayed on the V5 or the online checker, but that I have long suspected as existing on the back end

and the main one that concerns most here (ie @Dave_Q and his Y reg Moped) is that it actually displays the date of manufacture, I have long suspected that there was a period of time in the earlier days of the DVLA system where for domestic vehicles this was not actually recorded

and you used to be able to see this on older versions of the DVLA checker, for example here is @Zelandeth's TPA's record from before she went back on the road if you look at the fields, theres a date of first registration but no year of manufacture  

but then we look at the record again when Zel first got TPA taxed, you can suddenly see that a year of manufacture has appeared 

 

 

and having seen this happen a few times I realised that yeah domestic vehicles did not always have their year of manufacture actually recorded and it was pretty clear that once those vehicles suddenly got woken up they plucked the *year* from the date of first registration, but i realised with this, that the day and the month, was not taken from the date of first registration, instead I saw clues to it being the 1st of the 1st of the given year or the 30/31st of December of the given year, sometimes you would see this backend date when checking the MOT history of a vehicle 

 

and indeed, low and behold, this is REV's infomation once I made my account with the DVLA and plugged REV into it, despite being first registered 5th November 1976, the DVLA have her date of *manufacture* down as 30 December 1976! so this confirms what I thought, that the DVLA for older vehicles really dont have any details on when they where manufactured and just plugged in a place holder date and plucked the year from the date of first registration 

the other things that are of interest to mostly just myself is that it gives REV's body type as "MOBILITY VEHICLE" this a bit concerning, because as I have mentioned before the DVLA have recently updated their documentation regarding the registration and handling of Mobility scooters,  branding them "Mobility vehicles" 

but unfortunately as with the whole Invacare thing, this has clashed somewhat with actual *invalid vehicles* like the Stanley Argson, Invacar Mk12  and Model 70

and this is another display of how the DVLA's coded system and look up table works, since on the back end and on REV's V5 and most other tools that display this information the Body type is Code 08 which "INVALID VEHICLE" as in to say a vehicle that is designed and manufactured solely  for a persons suffering some form of defect or disability and not just an adapted existing vehicle (and it says INVALID VEHICLE rather then INVALID CARRIAGE, because what is and is not considered a *invalid carriage* very much depends on what vehicle is being talked about, and if its for RTA type purposes  or taxation/licence purposes)  but as can be seen above the code 08 is decoded to MOBILITY VEHICLE instead

so I am bit concerned that the DVLA might be rebranding "INVALID VEHICLE" to "MOBILITY VEHICLE" because going back to mobility scooters, when it became mandatory to register mobility scooters, the DVLA never did make a dedicated body type for those, they where always just registered under the "INVALID VEHICLE" body type, when really they should of been given their own body type, because they are quite different to something like a Stanley Argson or a Model 70, both physically speaking and also legally speaking 

 

it also interesting to see that number of seats is down as 1, since none of REV's V5 actually display that information again I dont think it was ever something they bothered to record back then, unless you had a bus or such where it mattered for taxation purposes, so its interesting to see 1 there, I wonder if thats just a default value, or if because its well an Invacar, they *know* its only going to have 1 seat, so they put 1 there if body type is INVALID VEHICLE?

 

anyways it would be interesting to hear from anyone else who has setup a DVLA account what their vehicles show up as   (especially anything oddball or old etc)  

[dollywobbler]

To be honest, if they weren't degrading, I'd happily keep TWC on the number plates she currently has as those would have been fitted in service.

[LightBulbFun]

41 minutes ago, dollywobbler said:

To be honest, if they weren't degrading, I'd happily keep TWC on the number plates she currently has as those would have been fitted in service.

oh indeed, I was not implying that you must replace her plates, as you say they are what she finished in service with so they are part of TWC's history in that regard  , but I am saying simply that if you do end up doing so, please do make sure to consult me about it!  

and thats what I was trying to show you all those times previously as you had previously said that TWC's plates where original, which to me even back then when I was much more green to the game of number plates I realised was not the case

On 30/03/2019 at 14:54, dollywobbler said:

On 30/03/2019 at 13:52, LightBulbFun said:

(its also interesting to see, and you can see the same in the football photograph, that the Last ones with white on black number plates where the L plate ones, I wonder if DW will get a correct set of plates made up for TWC at some point? )

Not a chance. I hate black/white plates on anything built after about 1968. I reckon TWC might even be on her original plates. Entirely possible.

On 30/03/2019 at 15:14, LightBulbFun said:

On 30/03/2019 at 14:54, dollywobbler said:

Not a chance. I hate black/white plates on anything built after about 1968. I reckon TWC might even be on her original plates. Entirely possible.

TWCs plates look like fairly modern laminated affairs? (especially going by the bleeding of the front plate)

  so I have been quite concerned that you might end up  spending good money on a set of of raised plastic digit retro-reflective number plates, which would of been entirely wrong for a Ministry Model 70 such as TWC, if you are going to spend good money on a set of tippers plates, let me ensure they be the right sort especially since as mention we are in the very fortunate position that tippers *is* what Invacar themselves used back in the day so with the right options it should be possible to get a set of 100% correct plates  

 

[lesapandre]

Generally:

Dating - if possible always go back to the manufacturers if they exist for an exact date for archive and DVLA purposes. Toyota were very helpful to me giving me the exact day my Landcruiser came off the production line.

If not in existence it can sometimes be decoded from the VIN - and then the owners club can provide correct verification to archive standard if they retain factory records. Otherwise they can do it 'by eye' from their knowledge and provide a letter

I see 'AC Cars' are still in existence - but I doubt they would be much interested in dating their older non-Cobra products? They also built diesel railcars for BR at one time and electric golf-trollys!

https://accars.eu/

With Invacars I'm not sure how much of the manufacturers archive exists - or Ministry records - very little I expect?

Regards dating on the database at the DVLA I expect this is a haphazard mess caused by years of different criteria, policy, inputting of data and data migration from different sources - as well as human error and indifference.

Anything you disagree with dispute vigorously. 

Moving older vehicles on to this new MOBILITY classification may have implications later when changes are made to tax and use classification at the DVLA or in Government.

I'd ask them straight out why the are doing it - I'd resist it - the correct classification is HISTORIC?

May also be something to get FIVA involved with too.

Very interesting thoughful posts as usual @LightBulbFun. Looking forward to meeting you and REV sometime.

[plasticvandan]

From what I remember,the entire records and archive exists,but given the illegal nature of how it was obtained originally,isn't publically available.

[Weird Car]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/235692033675

[lesapandre]

Scant detail proceed with caution.

[quicksilver]

36 minutes ago, lesapandre said:

Scant detail proceed with caution.

Smells scammy to me. The location looks like the Great British Car Journey, who were very excited to add that Invacar to their collection so I can't see why they'd be selling it so soon and with such a poor description.

[lesapandre]

Given the knowledge here - that would be ill-advised.

[Dave_Q]

Thanks for the tip on this LBF, I've set an account up and will add my vehicles when I get home and report back what it says.

[LightBulbFun]

10 hours ago, lesapandre said:

I see 'AC Cars' are still in existence - but I doubt they would be much interested in dating their older non-Cobra products? They also built diesel railcars for BR at one time and electric golf-trollys!

thats one of the things I am planning on chasing up, I have already talked with the AC Owners club if they have any records and sadly they dont, but I am hopeful that somewhere, there might be some AC invalid vehicle records, when researching AC etc, I had obviously come across their sports cars/cobra's etc and the listings for those cars would say "factory records show blah blah blah" so if the factory records for their sports cars survive, I am hopeful their invalid vehicle ones do too somewhere, maybe at the bottom of a draw?

sadly from what I have heard the most people in the AC scene, very much shunned invalid vehicles and did not care about them, certainly from when I spoke with Stuart about the situation, he said that he got a very cold shoulder when he tried contacting them about it years back

but I am hopefully that they will have mellowed out in the passing years and come to realise the importance of the invalid vehicle and all that and maybe might be willing to work with me  

(but that involves writing emails and all that, very much something I have to be in the right frame of mind/mood for)

https://autoshite.com/topic/32723-lightbulbfuns-invacar-general-ramble-thread-index-on-page-1-survivors-lists-on-pages-24134-adgecutlers-invacar-mk12-restoration-from-page-186-onwards-still-harping-on/page/300/

 

 

[Weird Car]

4 hours ago, Weird Car said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/235692033675

@LightBulbFun did you happen to know anything about this one?

Scam?

Looking at the sellers feedback and other items for sale it seems it could be genuine 🤷🏻‍♀️

[egg]

19 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

so this confirms what I thought, that the DVLA for older vehicles really dont have any details on when they where manufactured and just plugged in a place holder date and plucked the year from the date of first registration 

My i10 has same date for manufacture/registration. I also get sound levels (79db stationary) and exhaust emissions. 

Mondeo has 31 December 1993 build date. I think not!

 

[LightBulbFun]

29 minutes ago, Weird Car said:

@LightBulbFun did you happen to know anything about this one?

Scam?

Looking at the sellers feedback and other items for sale it seems it could be genuine 🤷🏻‍♀️

I am not sure! I know the car itself as mentioned by @quicksilver I am pretty sure its the Drive Dads Car one, so one would have to wonder why they where re-selling it like that? ill chase it up as I always do  

[lesapandre]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

thats one of the things I am planning on chasing up, I have already talked with the AC Owners club if they have any records and sadly they dont, but I am hopeful that somewhere, there might be some AC invalid vehicle records, when researching AC etc, I had obviously come across their sports cars/cobra's etc and the listings for those cars would say "factory records show blah blah blah" so if the factory records for their sports cars survive, I am hopeful their invalid vehicle ones do too somewhere, maybe at the bottom of a draw?

sadly from what I have heard the most people in the AC scene, very much shunned invalid vehicles and did not care about them, certainly from when I spoke with Stuart about the situation, he said that he got a very cold shoulder when he tried contacting them about it years back

but I am hopefully that they will have mellowed out in the passing years and come to realise the importance of the invalid vehicle and all that and maybe might be willing to work with me  

(but that involves writing emails and all that, very much something I have to be in the right frame of mind/mood for)

https://autoshite.com/topic/32723-lightbulbfuns-invacar-general-ramble-thread-index-on-page-1-survivors-lists-on-pages-24134-adgecutlers-invacar-mk12-restoration-from-page-186-onwards-still-harping-on/page/300/

 

 

Has there ever been a full on exhibition of the history of vehicles for the mobility impaired either at Gaydon, Beaulieu or the Science Museum or elsewhere?

It would make a great subject if it's not already done. Or could be done again. The range of vehicles is quite amazing.

[LightBulbFun]

34 minutes ago, egg said:

My i10 has same date for manufacture/registration. I also get sound levels (79db stationary) and exhaust emissions. 

very interesting, I did wonder if it would display emissions data for cars that have that recorded, does it also include NOx and all that stuff?  since it appears to be a digital copy of the vehicle V5's but only displays those fields which have data entered into them (which is why I find it curious that REV's seat count is displayed since on her actual V5 thats blank)

34 minutes ago, egg said:

Mondeo has 31 December 1993 build date. I think not!

thats another thing I have noticed over time is the odd car (like REV) being down as 30 December which I have always wondered why is that, unless I have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Gregorian calendar, December always ends on the 31st! 

its obviously clear that the system is just plucking the last day of the given year, so why do some come back as 30th rather then 31st, this smacks to me as some sort computer system thing, ya know like leap year corrections and all that, but I dont really know what it might be exactly 

(as mentioned before, especially for imports or domestic vehicles that where computerised late and the such like, you could sometimes see this DVLA place holder date of manufacture in the MOT checker)

if you look up REV731 with the DVLA checker vs the DVSA's MOT checker, you can see how the DVSA's MOT checker displays the DVLA's place holder date for "date of manufacture"