Classic car values

[lesapandre]

Wow. I must keep my eyes peeled in France for NOS BL and Ford parts. I'd no idea they were now so sought after and ££.

Anyone after a classic car could not go far wrong with a Mercedes W124. Parts will be fine.

Personally next time I'd go for a pre-WW2 car. Some amazing stuff about.

1924 Lanchester anyone? 3.3 OHC 6 - so not totally neanderthal.

Top speed of the car was variously quoted between 66 mph and 75 mph - not unfeasibly unusable then.

https://richardedmonds.atgportals.net/auctions/8823/ibri10099/lot-details/df9970ec-0b16-4c28-8936-b1100005cf05

Purchase price originally £87,000 in today's money. Bidding starts at £12,000. Arguably as good a car as a 1924 Rolls. A real 'Chit Chitty Bang Bang' car - I don't expect it flies though.

Loads of Pre-War cars about because that generation of old car enthusiasts has alas died off. A whole different motoring world.

And whilst these things do rust and fall apart you are not wrestling with decaying pressed steel monocoques.

The Post-War Riley RM cars are very nice too. Not insanely pricey.

[danthecapriman]

6 minutes ago, lesapandre said:

Wow. I must keep my eyes peeled in France for NOS BL and Ford parts. I'd no idea they were now so sought after and ££.

Anyone after a classic car could nor go far wrong with a Mercedes W124.

Personally next time I'd go for a pre-WW2 car. Some amazing stuff about.

You definitely should if you can find them without overpaying. 
Europe doesn’t quite have to same ‘thing’ going on with old Ford’s like we do here. Values seem to have stayed generally lower over there. Which means complete cars and parts can be had at much better prices than here, and if your careful, from places that don’t have a fucking awful climate for 50% of every year like here!

I got quite a lot of parts from France and Germany in particular, mainly smaller stuff but the prices are lower so it’s worth doing. I got a pair of genuine Ford new old stock complete tail lights from a guy in France for the same price as a pair of ropey used ones here! I got bits from USA, Australia and Cyprus too. If your restoring something it really does pay to look beyond the obvious if you need things and you might get a better deal on them too.

Interiors are notoriously difficult to get now. They weren’t hard wearing on many cars of the time and virtually nothing is available new to replace it. Predictably, mine was shit. I had mine retrimmed in the end which was another big cost to swallow. 
Unfortunately I can sow so I’m stuck paying someone to do the trimming on cars and it’s not cheap. I had a rear bench back & base and pair of headrest-less basic seats redone in half fabric half vinyl - as per original so nothing special either! Door cards, again, not available, so you better hope you have something at least half decent! Mine were saveable but there’s not many options if not.

You can see how quickly restoration costs can spiral. Even just buying the paint is expensive let alone getting someone talented enough to spray it on.

 

Saying all this. Cars are never the same after a restoration. I can’t say how, but you can tell it’s restored and not a good original. Imho you’re always better off getting something as original as you can. 
My Mercury is completely original (except the rebuilt engine) and it’s got a weird ‘charm’ of some sort because of that. It’s hard to describe! Sure, there’s marks on the interior and the paints far from perfect, but it’s just got something about it that a car that’s been pissed about with will never have. 
And no, I wouldn’t use this one as a daily driver either!!

[Dyslexic Viking]

I've never understood nostalgia, I buy cars I like or want to try. 

And I think it's a little unfair that all older cars are considered all the same, as that they break down all the time and need an engine overhaul every fortnight or is awfull to drive. Some are better than others.

[grogee]

24 minutes ago, Dyslexic Viking said:

I've never understood nostalgia, I buy cars I like or want to try. 

And I think it's a little unfair that all older cars are considered all the same, as that they break down all the time and need an engine overhaul every fortnight or is awfull to drive. Some are better than others.

Maybe nostalgia is one of those genetic things you either have or don't have. 

I'm massively susceptible to it and can easily spend an hour down a rabbit hole poring over old catalogues and TV ads. 

Interestingly even the smell of my Maestro interior took me back to 1986...

@lesapandre Honestly that sort of stuff leaves me cold. I can appreciate the work that people put into them but the thought of all that heave-ho on heavy steering, crap brakes and chugging along at 40mph makes me feel tired. In my head the pre-war stuff sits in the same section as steam engines - I can admire in passing but have no desire to get my hands dirty.

On the other hand if you showed me a TR7 that needed a new carb, points and plugs - I'd be on it like a tramp on chips. 

Nowt as queer as folk. 

[Dyslexic Viking]

9 minutes ago, grogee said:

Honestly that sort of stuff leaves me cold. I can appreciate the work that people put into them but the thought of all that heave-ho on heavy steering, crap brakes and chugging along at 40mph makes me feel tired. In my head the pre-war stuff sits in the same section as steam engines - I can admire in passing but have no desire to get my hands dirty.

Not all pre war cars are like that. Have heard several people say that late American 30s cars are quite usable and nice and are what I would have bought if I wanted one.

Like this 1938 US Ford for sale in Norway now, hydraulic brakes, enough engine power to keep up with traffic, etc.

[HMC]

Some of the more speculative prices eg e bay classified ads havent found buyers- in a few cases there are ads that have been up for literally years. Basically the market isnt there for them but people not in a hurry “testing” the market with unrealistic prices.

Of course , this creates a mindset to others with the same car that their car is worth x as theres an ad up with it at that money.

[2flags]

On the topic of popularity, you might find that if a car has a starring, or significant role in a TV series or in a film, then that model will see a surge in popularity. [MK2 Jags, Morse. Granadas, Sweeney.] It is as always budget dependent. Decide what you want, then get the best you can afford. At the moment, the best value sports cars seem to be MGF/MGTF or Mazda MX5's. Modern enough to have all the luxuries, power steering, decent brakes, airbags ect without the outrageous sticker price of something older. 

[HMC]

On a similar subject- the focus on prices and consequently what a car is to a person is a double edged sword. For sure, increased values mean things are worth restoring properly; but that brings with it a need to “protect” the investment - before you know it its in a carcoon most of the time and great care is taken to not add wear and tear- to avoid use basically. 

TL:DR a preoccupation with values and the market is good and bad. It basically made me stop buying “Classic Cars” mag as they seemed obsessed with “the market” no thanks.

[Cluffy]

6 hours ago, grogee said:

This. 

People think these cars are an 'investment' whereas more often than not they're a money sponge. (This may just be my experience though, YMMV). 

Best case scenario is that you pay the running costs. More likely you're also paying for storage and renovations to all the bits that have broken and are now unobtanium. Or at least spending money on various products to slow down the galloping rust. 

@Dick Longbridge just ask @Cluffy about costs to keep a Corrado, his is a  'good' one and the engine is currently being rebuilt for £££. Again. 

A lot of these cars are at a point where they will hold value and that's the attraction to me. If you want to invest and make money, property or properly learn about how the stock market works (at least, in my humble opinion).

But to have something you've always wanted, or at least you want to give a go, you'll get your money back pretty much. You have to maintain any car and I, like many on here believe in keeping older cars running and on the road as there's so much life left. I'd rather that than getting something new every X years, for hundreds a month (and not helping the climate problem in the process)

My VR6... Yeah it's causing me some pain now but should be mechanically wonderful in a few months. Not ever really had any MPG issues (30+) and its not taxed for 12 months... It's a lovely thing when up and running. 

I'm never far from thinking of selling, though... Primarily to indulge in some form of V8 Jag!

 

[Cluffy]

2 hours ago, grogee said:

Parts situation is mental, it's such a big part of keeping things on the road. You wouldn't think a Maestro was particularly exotic but because it falls in between the 'unloved' and 'classic' category, there are next to no body panels available. When Old Ken discovers a rear arch panel in his shed, it gets listed on ebay for £300 and sells within minutes.

If I had a Mini, no problem, everything's available.

It took some serious research, luck and cash to get hold of panels to get my Maestro back to MoT-able standard. The sills came from Ireland (I think) with a 12-week waiting period and cost about £150 for the pair, perhaps not too bad but the wait was the killer.

Even  after all that I paid A Man a lot of money to fit and paint them for me. Suddenly those KGF prices don't seem so barking mad anymore.

@NorfolkNWeigh the XJ40 that I shared with @Cluffy was pretty special. There are quite a few ropey ones around but somehow we landed a low mileage Sovereign 4.0 without any (serious) rust. It was a really nice car to drive and a good compromise between special/historic/usable/pretty/affordable.

Ah, "Liz" was a special old thing, wasn't she...

[EyesWeldedShut]

28 minutes ago, grogee said:

On the other hand if you showed me a TR7 that needed a new carb, points and plugs - I'd be on it like a tramp on chips. 

Drophead or fixed? https://www.maltapark.com/search?c=181&search=tr7

[Dick Cheeseburger]

46 minutes ago, Dyslexic Viking said:

I've never understood nostalgia, I buy cars I like or want to try. 

And I think it's a little unfair that all older cars are considered all the same, as that they break down all the time and need an engine overhaul every fortnight or is awfull to drive. Some are better than others.

Mixed feelings on this. I've owned masses of mk2 Golf Gtis and three different Golf VR6s over the years along with a couple of 16v Corrados. I've never owned a Corrado with the 2.9 VR6 lump though and keep looking at them. For me, it's the ultimate combination really.

Many are 30 years old now so have the potential to be big money pits, as alluded to above. However, there are decent examples out there where others have footed some of the larger bills along the way. 

I've been spoilt with the MR2 over the last nine years. I've replaced the roof and had some paintwork done. Otherwise it's just been routine servicing along with a couple of shocks - outlay has been pretty low in the grand scheme of things. I just fancy a 90s coupe with some proper grunt with a decent soundtrack again. Over the years I've owned a classic Impreza Catalunya, a Carlos Sainz Celica RC GT4, a couple of Cavalier Gsis along with several mk1 MX5s,  including one with a turbo conversion. 

Time for something which will growl a bit again. 

[UltraWomble]

17 hours ago, Dick Longbridge said:

Is the market just doing what it's always done and moving with the buyers - as the older buyers die out, the interest and values shift to slightly newer motors, and the next generation of buyers? 

 

Seems to be - I was round at Bobs (*80YO)  at the weekend and he was eyeing up a Bullnose Morris - a while ago (say 10 years) these were out of his reach price wise - now he can comfortably afford one.

He has a pre war 8 and pre war 10-4 - neither are worth as much now as they were 10 years ago, well thats not true, the 10-4 was a shagged pile of rust 10 years ago, but you know what I mean. Stuff from 40 years ago is climbing in price, whereas stuff from 70, 80, 90 years ago seems to be slowly going down in price.

[Bren]

I can see why people spend ££££££ for a top notch example.

I bought my SD1 in my late 30's. It took a lot of hours to make the bodywork good.

I am now in my early 50's. Would I do it now? Like fuck I would. Most of my life is now firmly in the rear view mirror - what time I have left will not be taken up with cutting grinding and welding.

Buy the best you can afford. And enjoy it.

No pockets in a shroud.

[lesapandre]

The only thing I'd add is it may be worth getting something in the Historic Taxation Class - certainly not needing road tax payments and being self-responsible for the safety of a vehicle has it's advantages - with increased ULEZ type situations being exempt is a good thing too.

My hunch is at some point the rolling exemption will be stopped. Worth getting in early?

[captain_70s]

2 minutes ago, Bren said:

Buy the best you can afford. And enjoy it.

This equally comes with diminishing returns.

I've been keeping an eye on certain 50s cars and while dealers are stocking concourse winners at £20k (and not selling them) a good example is £8-10k and won't suffer the same sort of depreciation from being used or drastic devaluing if something drops on it in the garage and chips the paint.

Values of pre 70s stuff has definitely stalled, likely due to the traditional owners dying off and the economic situation leading to belt tightening. I suspect this will continue as the generation that had final salary pensions etc pass away and spare money dries up.

80s/90s stuff is going nuts as there are a lot of folks in their 40s earning significant money in IT and middle management who can splurge on nostalgic stuff. Similar to how old games consoles are now rising in value. Although given how many folk are mortgaged to the hilt and survive on credit that may nit be particularly sustainable.

Really old stuff from the 1920s seems to have held fairly steady, I suppose those who are nostalgic for that era are now largely gone so the pool of buyers isn't prone to fluctuations.

[Shite Ron]

16 hours ago, lesapandre said:

My hunch is at some point the rolling exemption will be stopped. Worth getting in early?

I think it is more than a hunch, there is a very strong likelihood that we will have a change of government to one that has no sympathy for our interests or a person who has worked hard all their life. I do not want to get into a discussion on politics but the facts from recent history are clear.

[Hertz]

I'm currently listening to Matthewson's in the background, prices seem to be on the low side. Interested in lot 325, could be the cheapest DB7 ever.

https://www.mathewsons.co.uk/auction/details/-february-classic-vehicles--memorabilia-auction/?au=61

 

[lesapandre]

55 minutes ago, Shite Ron said:

I think it is more than a hunch, there is a very strong likelihood that we will have a change of government to one that has no sympathy for our interests or a person who has worked hard all their life. I do not want to get into a discussion on politics but the facts from recent history are clear.

Politics aside - though it always comes back to that...'the will of the people' - and all that...

There are certain crucial technologies which I think they will want to test so a cut off definition at the introduction of cat's and air bags in general use? May be way before. We are up the 1984 vehicles already.

Be done on trumped-up 'safety' or 'pollution' grounds...or 'fairness' to increase revenue 

Labour pulled the rolling VED exemption last time... 

They won't abolish what has gone already.

[D.E]

17 hours ago, Dyslexic Viking said:

Not all pre war cars are like that. Have heard several people say that late American 30s cars are quite usable and nice and are what I would have bought if I wanted one.

Like this 1938 US Ford for sale in Norway now, hydraulic brakes, enough engine power to keep up with traffic, etc.

It is said that parts availability of these later 30s Yanks is usually fairly good too (if ordering in the USA isn't an issue), which would make ownership a bit easier as well. Personally, I am more interested in cars of the 1920s and earlier. Now that I am at a point in life where I could realistically buy something in the foreseeable future that isn't a rotten chasis with a few bits attached, I keep an eye on the market. To me it seems that especially the "bread and butter" models, cars without fancy coachbuilt bodywork and that don't represent a specific achievement in automotive history, are slowly decreasing in value. Which for me is great, because that are the models that I'll be after.  What I would want, is a pre war motor that is as close as possible to the cars one would regularly see in the streets of 80, 90 or 100 years ago. So no silly recent racer "special" body, no overaccessorizing with tat, etc. 

This is almost perfect imo:

https://www.marktplaats.nl/v/auto-s/overige-auto-s/m2075423111-willys-overland-tourer-4-cil-1918

Fairly similar cars were priced the same or a bit higher in the classic car magazine ads of 15-20 years ago. Given inflation and all that, prices have dropped.

[cort1977]

I think the market is just doing more or less what it's always done and following the popularity of cars from 30 years ago.   Nostalgia for 40 and 40 somethings.  COVID and inflation are making things a bit odd but the basic trend is the same.  Not sure tax rates matter, a lot of classics aren't taxed year round anyway.

I know some people get a lot out of it but I can never get too worked up about originality or whether a car has been restored or not.  To me, driving an old car is fun because it's a different experience to moderns.

I don't really mind if the seats aren't correct or it's a bit scruffy, you still get the experience when you're driving it.  I would much rather have a functional but slightly scruffy car that you can use and enjoy than something that's valuable enough to be an investment and be scared to drive it.

 

[EyesWeldedShut]

2 hours ago, Hertz said:

I'm currently listening to Matthewson's in the background, prices seem to be on the low side. Interested in lot 325, could be the cheapest DB7 ever.

https://www.mathewsons.co.uk/auction/details/-february-classic-vehicles--memorabilia-auction/?au=61

 

That's my lunchtime listening then
He's working hard at the moment by the sound of things (mind you the bidders are as slow as treacle) - the REnault GTA is not shifting

[Joey spud]

3 hours ago, Hertz said:

I'm currently listening to Matthewson's in the background, prices seem to be on the low side. Interested in lot 325, could be the cheapest DB7 ever.

https://www.mathewsons.co.uk/auction/details/-february-classic-vehicles--memorabilia-auction/?au=61

 

Dave at Mathewsons has started doing a weekly blog of what's going on at the site and he said very recently that many auction results lately are 20% down on post COVID (2021/22) results.

Because they are online only now and not in the village hall they are trying out a midweek sale to see if it makes much difference as most old car botherers like to do car things at the weekends.

[Dyslexic Viking]

2 hours ago, D.E said:

It is said that parts availability of these later 30s Yanks is usually fairly good too (if ordering in the USA isn't an issue), which would make ownership a bit easier as well. Personally, I am more interested in cars of the 1920s and earlier. Now that I am at a point in life where I could realistically buy something in the foreseeable future that isn't a rotten chasis with a few bits attached, I keep an eye on the market. To me it seems that especially the "bread and butter" models, cars without fancy coachbuilt bodywork and that don't represent a specific achievement in automotive history, are slowly decreasing in value. Which for me is great, because that are the models that I'll be after.  What I would want, is a pre war motor that is as close as possible to the cars one would regularly see in the streets of 80, 90 or 100 years ago. So no silly recent racer "special" body, no overaccessorizing with tat, etc. 

This is almost perfect imo:

https://www.marktplaats.nl/v/auto-s/overige-auto-s/m2075423111-willys-overland-tourer-4-cil-1918

Fairly similar cars were priced the same or a bit higher in the classic car magazine ads of 15-20 years ago. Given inflation and all that, prices have dropped.

Yes parts availability to many old yank cars are good Ford model A and T are are good examples on that as I think these are well covered.

And I also like cars from the 20s and really want a model A, but there is no getting away from the fact that cars from the late 30s are much nicer to drive and use. Car development from 1930 to 1940, at least in the US, was enormous.

It's incredible to think that there are only 7 years between these to Fords.

 

But I really want to test drive a model A and see how I like it, I have seen a lot on youtube about these and know they are more demanding to drive than something newer but it would have been fun to try one. I wish that car clubs could have meetings where those interested could try driving different cars, it would help a lot with recruitment, I think.

[grogee]

On 14/02/2024 at 15:58, lesapandre said:

Wow. I must keep my eyes peeled in France for NOS BL and Ford parts. I'd no idea they were now so sought after and ££.

To wit: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/176226266965

[lesapandre]

I'll keep looking at French car shows.

There are BL Maestro and Montegos in France - more of the former. Not valued so any NOS parts won't be pricey.

[grogee]

11 minutes ago, lesapandre said:

I'll keep looking at French car shows.

There are BL Maestro and Montegos in France - more of the former. Not valued so any NOS parts won't be pricey.

Offer them here first, we'll pay a finder's fee + shiter's tax (payable in Twixes)

[danthecapriman]

It’s always amazed me how these NOS panels and parts manage to keep turning up. 
I mean, many of them have been out of production for many decades so have been sat somewhere all that time. How? Why? 
Why would someone buy them and leave them unused like that. 
I had a load I bought when prices were lower ready to put on my Capri, but they stayed up in the loft for years before I did anything with them. They’ve all been used now of course but a pair of Capri wings aren’t exactly something that don’t take up much space!

Just seems really strange to me why they get kept and left for so long.

[lesapandre]

1 hour ago, grogee said:

Offer them here first, we'll pay a finder's fee + shiter's tax (payable in Twixes)

I only accept camembert (none of yr new fangled twix)

I jest.

Yes very happy to...

BL Rover had a big following in France. Lots of the later cars still about or in barns.

[artdjones]

On 14/02/2024 at 15:58, lesapandre said:

Wow. I must keep my eyes peeled in France for NOS BL and Ford parts. I'd no idea they were now so sought after and ££.

Anyone after a classic car could not go far wrong with a Mercedes W124. Parts will be fine.

Personally next time I'd go for a pre-WW2 car. Some amazing stuff about.

1924 Lanchester anyone? 3.3 OHC 6 - so not totally neanderthal.

Top speed of the car was variously quoted between 66 mph and 75 mph - not unfeasibly unusable then.

https://richardedmonds.atgportals.net/auctions/8823/ibri10099/lot-details/df9970ec-0b16-4c28-8936-b1100005cf05

Purchase price originally £87,000 in today's money. Bidding starts at £12,000. Arguably as good a car as a 1924 Rolls. A real 'Chit Chitty Bang Bang' car - I don't expect it flies though.

Loads of Pre-War cars about because that generation of old car enthusiasts has alas died off. A whole different motoring world.

And whilst these things do rust and fall apart you are not wrestling with decaying pressed steel monocoques.

The Post-War Riley RM cars are very nice too. Not insanely pricey.

Those Lanchesters were very good cars - always priced at a tactful 50gn less than the equivalent Rolls chassis, but obviously with more power- the 20hp Rolls was pretty slow, although still very nice - more like 55-65mph with them.

They did a 40hp Silver Ghost/Phantom competitor, too.