F**ked Black Rover 827 SLi - The Mistake Machine

[High Jetter]

1 hour ago, Christine said:

I went to Chichester on the A27 yesterday  , at Lewis started following a  recovery truck with a preserved  L reg  Police  Rover  827  on the back  . I overtook it at Arundel.. 

A  Peel  was going the other direction .. !  

Please tell us you will be uploading the dashcam vid! Never seen a Peel otr locally.

PS: why not overtake sooner?

[Christine]

Heavy traffic  , so nothing to gain over a  55 mile journey  , i like doing economy run  driving as well as being fast .  26 year old car , old tyres , and cambelt  ...  , l've never clocked a Peel on the road either.. my daughter  too was  WTF is that ?  About 50k ...

[brownnova]

Now unless I’ve missed something not on this thread I wasn’t aware that this was for sale so it might be worth tagging it as such so that people that haven’t caught up on your thread for a while would know.

As for me, I’d love to take this on. But as with St Jude I lack time, and I already have too many projects, which aren’t making any progress! 

[dave j]

Maybe put a post in the for sale section to see if anyone that hasn't read this thread is interested? 

[St.Jude]

There's a lot to reply to here.

I've not sent the money back, and he hasn't been in touch either.

I don't particularly care where it ends up or who wants it. The problem here is it needs a trailer. You could well be the lucky fucker who puts the key in and it starts first time but if you feel that lucky then do the lotto first and then get a trailer with the winnings.

I suspect that the neutral selector (not the Parking thing) would probably be the cause of this. It's the one thing I've not really looked in to properly. It's buried in the center console, I made an attempt to access it but couldn't work out how to get the massive plastic thing off without breaking it. Brittle plastics, 80's plastic, and me with a temper aren't conducive to a great working relationship. All I could do was wiggle it and move it back/forward. What doesn't help is that the car falls between the Mk1 and Mk2 versions. The neutral selector on a Mk1 should be under the battery (according to the books), but on this one it's missing. Which would mean it's located in the Mk2 position of being under the gearstick. Also the ignition coil you'd think it would have is the wrong sort for what you would think it's on.

It just needs to run, and if it ran I could move it and park it and through a tarp over it and and come back to it when the Lada is further along or done. But even now I still can't be fucked with it to the point it almost hurts. I've put it up on the for sale section.

[vaughant]

4 hours ago, St.Jude said:

There's a lot to reply to here.

I've not sent the money back, and he hasn't been in touch either.

I don't particularly care where it ends up or who wants it. The problem here is it needs a trailer. You could well be the lucky fucker who puts the key in and it starts first time but if you feel that lucky then do the lotto first and then get a trailer with the winnings.

I suspect that the neutral selector (not the Parking thing) would probably be the cause of this. It's the one thing I've not really looked in to properly. It's buried in the center console, I made an attempt to access it but couldn't work out how to get the massive plastic thing off without breaking it. Brittle plastics, 80's plastic, and me with a temper aren't conducive to a great working relationship. All I could do was wiggle it and move it back/forward. What doesn't help is that the car falls between the Mk1 and Mk2 versions. The neutral selector on a Mk1 should be under the battery (according to the books), but on this one it's missing. Which would mean it's located in the Mk2 position of being under the gearstick. Also the ignition coil you'd think it would have is the wrong sort for what you would think it's on.

It just needs to run, and if it ran I could move it and park it and through a tarp over it and and come back to it when the Lada is further along or done. But even now I still can't be fucked with it to the point it almost hurts. I've put it up on the for sale section.

I can't believe I mixed this thread after it got moved to the main section.

Did you ever find the wiring diagrams for it?

There's most likely a joint point you could test for continuity at for the park/neutral switch? And if so link accordingly. These fucking schoolboy rover electronics teachers who put all this daft unproven tech in it need their heads wobbled.

If you find them in still more than happy to trawl through and give you some ideas.

I know it's turned out to be a piece of shit but a running or at least trying to run piece of shit is worth a lot more than a non running piece of shit 🤣🤣.

 

[Mr Pastry]

4 hours ago, vaughant said:

I can't believe I mixed this thread after it got moved to the main section.

Did you ever find the wiring diagrams for it?

There's most likely a joint point you could test for continuity at for the park/neutral switch? And if so link accordingly. These fucking schoolboy rover electronics teachers who put all this daft unproven tech in it need their heads wobbled.

If you find them in still more than happy to trawl through and give you some ideas.

I know it's turned out to be a piece of shit but a running or at least trying to run piece of shit is worth a lot more than a non running piece of shit 🤣🤣.

 

This.  If we could just see a wiring diagram, we could maybe understand what is going on and offer some useful advice.  A professional would start with a diagram if they didn't know the vehicle because, er, that's the right way to do it.   

I  can't believe that the electronics in a Rover of that age are particularly complex - not too clever perhaps, but not complex.  It probably isn't an electronic fault as such - far more likely to be a bad connection, or a bad sensor or switch somewhere.  It just needs a logical approach.  Frankly, given the level of computer and electronic expertise on the the forum I'm surprised that no-one can get their heads around it.

Ignition switch and park/neutral switch have been suggested, which are both good shouts.  Ignition switch isn't likely to be complicated, or difficult to access.  Park/neutral switch may be buried, but will probably operate a relay (which is one reason why we need a diagram) in which case it can be nobbled.

I know none of this helps when it's cold and dark outside and the thing won't start, but don't make it harder than it needs to be.

[Dobloseven]

Probably a silly question,but if a wire was run from the starter solenoid to the live battery terminal,would it spin over?Or even start if the ignition was switched on.In Park, obviously!

[RoverFolkUs]

31 minutes ago, Dobloseven said:

Probably a silly question,but if a wire was run from the starter solenoid to the live battery terminal,would it spin over?Or even start if the ignition was switched on.In Park, obviously!

Neat idea. Yes it would spin over, wouldn't run unless you got creative with the fuel pump relay (not difficult) - the Achilles heel could be spark, depends how it's all set up and what criteria the car wants met to give sparky action. Again, there's probably not much to it in order to facilitate some capacity of running 

[N Dentressangle]

6 minutes ago, RoverFolkUs said:

Neat idea. Yes it would spin over, wouldn't run unless you got creative with the fuel pump relay (not difficult) - the Achilles heel could be spark, depends how it's all set up and what criteria the car wants met to give sparky action. Again, there's probably not much to it in order to facilitate some capacity of running 

Yep, this car's the same year as my RRC 3.9 V8, which even I can mend. I know there's a bit more to it than a 14CUX and a 4HP22 but it must be possible to make the bastard thing run somehow

[RoverFolkUs]

@St.Jude I've returned here so as not to clutter up the for sale thread. 

Did you get anywhere with an EKA code? That's definitely worth a try I think, project nigel *seemed* to get that red one running after entering the code using the door lock barrel, and then unplugged a control module afterwards to permanently disable it (?) - a bit like old Citroens with their keypad immobilisers..

[Dobloseven]

23 minutes ago, N Dentressangle said:

Yep, this car's the same year as my RRC 3.9 V8, which even I can mend. I know there's a bit more to it than a 14CUX and a 4HP22 but it must be possible to make the bastard thing run somehow

How do banger racers and the like go on with getting and keeping stuff running? Several on here talk of sending newer cars than this,"round the oval",and Mally, for example,actually does it.Or do they just start with running vehicles and hope they keep going?And folk who put completely different engines in cars.The lad who did some house rewiring for us is building a Skoda Octavia with a 3.2 VR6 engine.He spent 1500 quid on a manifold for a turbo,so must be pretty confident of getting it running.Problem might be that the 800 was a technical dead end so knowledge could be restricted and with low values and interest nobody's that bothered,just find a better one and hope it keeps going.

[Lankytim]

2 minutes ago, Dobloseven said:

How do banger racers and the like go on with getting and keeping stuff running? Several on here talk of sending newer cars than this,"round the oval",and Mally, for example,actually does it.Or do they just start with running vehicles and hope they keep going?And folk who put completely different engines in cars.The lad who did some house rewiring for us is building a Skoda Octavia with a 3.2 VR6 engine.He spent 1500 quid on a manifold for a turbo,so must be pretty confident of getting it running.Problem might be that the 800 was a technical dead end so knowledge could be restricted and with low values and interest nobody's that bothered,just find a better one and hope it keeps going.

A custom cut down loom with a version of the ECU without an immobiliser is the usual state of affairs. Not all cars are common enough on the track for racers to have figured out how to wire them up though.  

[Bren]

8 minutes ago, Dobloseven said:

How do banger racers and the like go on with getting and keeping stuff running? Several on here talk of sending newer cars than this,"round the oval",and Mally, for example,actually does it.Or do they just start with running vehicles and hope they keep going?And folk who put completely different engines in cars.The lad who did some house rewiring for us is building a Skoda Octavia with a 3.2 VR6 engine.He spent 1500 quid on a manifold for a turbo,so must be pretty confident of getting it running.Problem might be that the 800 was a technical dead end so knowledge could be restricted and with low values and interest nobody's that bothered,just find a better one and hope it keeps going.

They fit a cologne V6.

[Dobloseven]

4 minutes ago, Lankytim said:

A custom cut down loom with a version of the ECU without an immobiliser is the usual state of affairs. Not all cars are common enough on the track for racers to have figured out how to wire them up though.  

That's rather what I thought.Just realised they did an 8v O series engined 800,with a single carburettor.

[N Dentressangle]

That's the thing. If I hit a total impasse with the crappy 14CUX EFI then the final solution is to replace with a pair of SU's and junk the lot. The ZF box in the RRC is also very basic with no electronic controls - I don't think the Honda 2.7 V6 or its box can be cavemanned in quite the same way sadly.

[Lankytim]

6 hours ago, Dobloseven said:

That's rather what I thought.Just realised they did an 8v O series engined 800,with a single carburettor.

I got into an online argument with someone who claimed to own one of these O series carb versions. I was absolutely sure they never existed. Years later I found out I was very wrong. 

[Dobloseven]

3 hours ago, Lankytim said:

I got into an online argument with someone who claimed to own one of these O series carb versions. I was absolutely sure they never existed. Years later I found out I was very wrong. 

They'd probably be the best ones to try to keep running!Assuming any still exist.

[Alan G]

12 hours ago, Lankytim said:

A custom cut down loom with a version of the ECU without an immobiliser is the usual state of affairs. Not all cars are common enough on the track for racers to have figured out how to wire them up though.  

That's the way we've done it with the Volvo 950. A custom loom which we made ourselves plus an Emerald ECU in place of the Volvo one. It takes time and you need to be methodical but it works well.

[St.Jude]

22 hours ago, vaughant said:

I can't believe I mixed this thread after it got moved to the main section.

Did you ever find the wiring diagrams for it?

There's most likely a joint point you could test for continuity at for the park/neutral switch? And if so link accordingly. These fucking schoolboy rover electronics teachers who put all this daft unproven tech in it need their heads wobbled.

If you find them in still more than happy to trawl through and give you some ideas.

I know it's turned out to be a piece of shit but a running or at least trying to run piece of shit is worth a lot more than a non running piece of shit 🤣🤣.

 

17 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

This.  If we could just see a wiring diagram, we could maybe understand what is going on and offer some useful advice.  A professional would start with a diagram if they didn't know the vehicle because, er, that's the right way to do it.   

I  can't believe that the electronics in a Rover of that age are particularly complex - not too clever perhaps, but not complex.  It probably isn't an electronic fault as such - far more likely to be a bad connection, or a bad sensor or switch somewhere.  It just needs a logical approach.  Frankly, given the level of computer and electronic expertise on the the forum I'm surprised that no-one can get their heads around it.

Ignition switch and park/neutral switch have been suggested, which are both good shouts.  Ignition switch isn't likely to be complicated, or difficult to access.  Park/neutral switch may be buried, but will probably operate a relay (which is one reason why we need a diagram) in which case it can be nobbled.

I know none of this helps when it's cold and dark outside and the thing won't start, but don't make it harder than it needs to be.

Fairly sure I did. I'll have to find them again though.

I started with the main relay. Took that out, resoldered it, I think the fuel part of it doesn't work as it doesn't prime the fuel pump but that's an aside. The ECU light had remained on before the resolder, and it was dangling down so it has been fucked with before. The ECU was checked for dry joints and it returns no fault lights or codes. The ECU light on the dashboard goes off. So as far as the ECU is concerned everything is fine. So it's from the ECU onwards, which would either be the stuck starter or neutral switch on the gearbox. I've twatted the starter several times and it's not done anything. I've not tried jumping that either. So, maybe, I will give that a go if I remember to put whats needed in the car before I go to see it again. The neutral switch, I think, is the only thing that hasn't been properly removed and checked. But like I said it's buried in the center console and it was being a prick. I don't like it when things are being a prick and I'm in a bad mood, shit gets broken.

14 hours ago, RoverFolkUs said:

@St.Jude I've returned here so as not to clutter up the for sale thread. 

Did you get anywhere with an EKA code? That's definitely worth a try I think, project nigel *seemed* to get that red one running after entering the code using the door lock barrel, and then unplugged a control module afterwards to permanently disable it (?) - a bit like old Citroens with their keypad immobilisers..

Yeah I saw that and I tried it based on the VIN. Didn't really do anything if I'm honest but I don't think the EKA applies to the Mk1 or this middle of the gap version.

[Mr Pastry]

I gather that this probably hasn't got an immobiliser - it would be good to know definitely.

If  as said earlier, you are getting a small click from the starter, and assuming a good battery, that would suggest that the neutral switch is working, but either the solenoid is faulty or not getting enough leccy from the ignition switch.

Try a direct feed from battery to starter solenoid, and see if the solenoid operates and cranks the engine  - while in neutral obvs.  If it does, and the neutral switch is working, then the ignition switch is the next suspect.

I would want to see how the main relay is connected before commenting on the lack of fuel pump action, but that may also be ignition switch related.

 

[chaseracer]

Wiring diagrams: 12.19

http://andern.mg-rover.cz/download/Rover820_825_827.pdf

OK, it's the HBoL, but...

[Mr Pastry]

On a quick look at the diagram - if it is the same as the actual car - first thoughts.

The inhibitor switch for the gearbox is supplied from the ignition switch and feeds the starter solenoid via a separate relay, so if the inhibitor has to be bypassed it can be done at the relay.   But check the starter first, as said earlier.  

The main relay and the fuel pump relay are shown separately.  Possibly they are in the same casing, but they have separate power supplies.

The main relay is supplied direct from the battery, and feeds the fuel ECU and the injectors.

The fuel pump relay  is supplied from the ignition switch, and just feeds the pump, via an inertia switch.

Since the ECU appears to be operating and the pump isn't, this points to the ignition switch? 

It is a simple switch with one input and four outputs, I would be testing that next.

 

 

[RoverFolkUs]

12 hours ago, St.Jude said:

Yeah I saw that and I tried it based on the VIN. Didn't really do anything if I'm honest but I don't think the EKA applies to the Mk1 or this middle of the gap version.

I get your gist, as Mr pastry says it would be good to know for certain whether or not it does have an immobiliser from factory

(Well, if it's got an aftermarket immobiliser that could be a different kettle of fish but let's assume not unless you've found any traces of one!?)

I do believe the VIN based EKA is a bit of an urban myth. It might be prudent to contact the company who hold the data obtained from Rover when they went under who should know for sure. I'm pretty sure they'll sell you the code for tuppence if you prove your right to it. 

Fully appreciate this is a lot more hassle than you'd like but hopefully we can all help you get somewhere with it if a sale is to no avail so far 🤞

[Mr Pastry]

Ignition switch.  Not much to it. www.ebay.co.uk/itm/375147235156?

[St.Jude]

13 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

The main relay and the fuel pump relay are shown separately.  Possibly they are in the same casing, but they have separate power supplies.

The main relay is supplied direct from the battery, and feeds the fuel ECU and the injectors.

The fuel pump relay  is supplied from the ignition switch, and just feeds the pump, via an inertia switch.

Since the ECU appears to be operating and the pump isn't, this points to the ignition switch? 

So the Main relay has two relays inside it. One for the pump, one for the ECU. It had shown signs of being wet before. I think a friend said the fuel relay looked to be a bit sticky, but there is also a "spare" fuel pump in the boot. I'm inclined to think, especially with bogging down issues it had before I bought it, the pump is FUBAR.

9 hours ago, RoverFolkUs said:

I get your gist, as Mr pastry says it would be good to know for certain whether or not it does have an immobiliser from factory

(Well, if it's got an aftermarket immobiliser that could be a different kettle of fish but let's assume not unless you've found any traces of one!?)

I do believe the VIN based EKA is a bit of an urban myth. It might be prudent to contact the company who hold the data obtained from Rover when they went under who should know for sure. I'm pretty sure they'll sell you the code for tuppence if you prove your right to it. 

Fully appreciate this is a lot more hassle than you'd like but hopefully we can all help you get somewhere with it if a sale is to no avail so far 🤞

I think the VIN based EKA is total bollocks too. But it's no harm to try either. I found that company I think that would provide the EKA code, think it was £20 to get it. I don't imagine there would be an immobilizer on the vehicle though as there is no indication as to one being primed either. You know, like a light on the dash that flashes. That's my assumption really.

Thing is, this month anyway, I've no money to put towards it. It's all budgeted on the Lada in terms of getting steel for it and building a welding cart to actually weld it.

[brownnova]

As I re-read this thread I had a triggered memory.

When my MX5 got very wet from a leaking roof, the ignition switch got damp inside, this caused the exact symptoms you’re describing. If I wiggled the key around (especially if I put it in and took it out again a load of times) it would work most of the time. I put a load of WD40 down the ignition barrel and that helped too.

Then it flooded, cooked the ECU and rotted the sills from the inside out. But that’s another story! 

[St.Jude]

So for an update:

• It's still there
• Had no communication from the "buyer" either
• I've not been round to it

I have though found the folder that's meant to have the wiring diagrams for it. I have Friday off to sort some house stuff out in preparation for the Lada work which will be starting next week. I think, possibly, I am going round Sunday but I'm waiting for my wife to dictate tell me if we're going somewhere or not. If not, then I'm going to the Rover. If I am going there then I'd like to think somewhere between Good Friday and Easter Monday I'll have an opportunity to go and tinker with it. I'm going to look at the folder this week, so I may tap you up for this @Mr Pastry if I think I'm reading gobbledegook.

I am trying to write down a list of jobs for the Lada, concentrating more on the bodywork side first then mechanics will happen after that, but that's Friday's job really so I can properly poke and prod it. It's looking like I'm going to have gaps in weekends where there wouldn't be enough work to warrant a full day on it, or I'll be waiting to raise cash for bits or waiting for delivery of them which will stop work. These aren't a lot of days, and they are just single days. So that would possibly allow me "full" days to sort the Rover in to some sort of condition that is better than what it is now.

[rovik88]

Hi,

I'm new here, but a regular over at mg-rover.org forum. If you need any technical help, let me know what you require as I've got all technical documents one may ever need Would hate to see yet another 800 bite the dust, though I do understand your reasons absolutely (being a parent, financial bits, etc.).

[St.Jude]

1 hour ago, rovik88 said:

Hi,

I'm new here, but a regular over at mg-rover.org forum. If you need any technical help, let me know what you require as I've got all technical documents one may ever need Would hate to see yet another 800 bite the dust, though I do understand your reasons absolutely (being a parent, financial bits, etc.).

Thank you and welcome to Autoshite!

Edit: Do you have the same username over on the MG Rover forum @rovik88? I've got vague recollections of seeing that name aside posts regarding K Series engines/cars?