Peugeot 309 rescue thread. Moving on.

[DoctorRetro]

3 minutes ago, GingerNuttz said:

Turned out great for a first attempt, that sill panel is bang on 👍

Did you enjoy or hate the welding process then ?

It's fine, although I don't enjoy the balls of hot metal landing on me and burning through my coat though. 🤣

I need to keep playing with the settings on the welder, it's fine laying a weld on a flat clean piece of steel on the ground, but sideway or upside down on the car it's either blowing holes or spattering balls of weld everywhere.

But as said, metal is stuck to other metal, an there's no longer crunchy bits.

That's a win in my book. Just need to figure out how to get the bloody thing started and running next. 🤣

 

[Tommyboy12]

Nice work! Looks some decent welds. Welding on your back is crap no matter the settings though!

[Mrs6C]

2 hours ago, DoctorRetro said:

it's fine laying a weld on a flat clean piece of steel on the ground, but sideway or upside down on the car it's either blowing holes or spattering balls of weld everywhere.

Maybe the gas isn't flowing enough to combat gravity when you are trying to shield the weld when the torch is at an angle or upside down. Check the welding tip and gas shroud are clean and nothing is in the way to impede gas flow. Weld spatter can land in and soot can build up in the aperture quite easily. Give them a good clean with a stiff brush if necessary. You could try turning up the gas a bit too.

[balford]

6 hours ago, DoctorRetro said:

I'm really shit at this 🤣

You've had the balls to learn to weld to attempt the repair, which is far more than I've accomplished to date.

[CaptainBoom]

Echoing the recent comments, you are cracking on well with this.  The 309 has a good custodian in you.  That sill panel is decent.

You've done more in the last two weeks than I have managed in three years with my SAAB.  I have similar conditions to you, welding on a driveway next to a busy street and little in the way of storage. 

Keep up the good work, I think if we had a race to get an MOT certificate, you would be past the finishing line a long way ahead of me!

[djoptix]

Well done @DoctorRetro, I will admit I didn't think you would get this far. Keep it up!

[DoctorRetro]

Trigger warning - do not read this post if you're easily scared 

...

. .

 ..

Still here?

Well, all this work has been done with the fuel tank still in situ, because it was too much of a pain to remove. I did consult the welding forums though, and they said it's fine, as long as you shield the tank if working close to it. I'm still here, so that supports that theory 🤣

[chodweaver]

Someone mentioned a leather welding apron. +1 for them - I used to wear old coats that were almost entirely synthetic and holed really easily once the sparkly stick was deployed. My wife bought me an apron as a gift, but I see they're only about a tenner, so not the most expensive of welding accessories - they also give you a handy pocket that won't catch fire when molten metal balls fall into it.

That sill repair is good stuff, and brilliant for your first piece of work. As said above, the actual welding is just a small part of the process - if your welds are spitting at you, they're contaminated with paint/rust/underseal or your shielding gas is getting blown away. It can be mega frustrating when you want to get to the sticking-the-bits-together stage, but like painting, it's about the preparation - everything needs to be clean - bear in mind the heat that the mig is piling into the sill is going to melt paint and underseal that is inches away and it'll run into your welds and cause problems. Clean back further than you think is enough. For the next patches, consider getting some 3M Scotchbrite clean and strip discs to go on the grinder. They'll take off paint without grinding valuable thickness out of the edges of the metal you're going to be welding, and help prevent blow through.

Butt welds vs an overlapping patch came up - I'd love to be able to do an invisible repair, but couldn't figure out how to do it with ease. A few videos by the man with the strange accent - Fitzee - demonstrate his method for 'cut and butt'.

 

[Tommyboy12]

7 hours ago, DoctorRetro said:

Trigger warning - do not read this post if you're easily scared 

...

. .

 ..

Still here?

Well, all this work has been done with the fuel tank still in situ, because it was too much of a pain to remove. I did consult the welding forums though, and they said it's fine, as long as you shield the tank if working close to it. I'm still here, so that supports that theory 🤣

Depends on the tank. Metal I don't bother. Plastic I do because it's not very friendly with balls of molten metal

[dave j]

Good work! It's great to see you getting stuck in. It's really satisfying once you have replaced the rot with metal. 

[Soundwave]

Excellent stuff - could never get on with welding myself, so you're already doing better than me!

[wesacosa]

much respect for going for it and teaching yourself to weld.  I have never been brave enough.  Top top work

 

[somewhatfoolish]

13 hours ago, chodweaver said:

Someone mentioned a leather welding apron. +1 for them - I used to wear old coats that were almost entirely synthetic and holed really easily once the sparkly stick was deployed. My wife bought me an apron as a gift, but I see they're only about a tenner, so not the most expensive of welding accessories - they also give you a handy pocket that won't catch fire when molten metal balls fall into it.

That sill repair is good stuff, and brilliant for your first piece of work. As said above, the actual welding is just a small part of the process - if your welds are spitting at you, they're contaminated with paint/rust/underseal or your shielding gas is getting blown away. It can be mega frustrating when you want to get to the sticking-the-bits-together stage, but like painting, it's about the preparation - everything needs to be clean - bear in mind the heat that the mig is piling into the sill is going to melt paint and underseal that is inches away and it'll run into your welds and cause problems. Clean back further than you think is enough. For the next patches, consider getting some 3M Scotchbrite clean and strip discs to go on the grinder. They'll take off paint without grinding valuable thickness out of the edges of the metal you're going to be welding, and help prevent blow through.

Butt welds vs an overlapping patch came up - I'd love to be able to do an invisible repair, but couldn't figure out how to do it with ease. A few videos by the man with the strange accent - Fitzee - demonstrate his method for 'cut and butt'.

 

For grovelling outside I find an apron a pain in the bum; either decent flameproof overalls or scour the charity shops for a shite leather jacket, even asking them if they have cosmetically damaged ones out back that are going in the bin.

That patch looks like decent MOT standard welding, carry on chap.

[Dave_Q]

Have you also plug welded the bottom edge of the sill to the inner layer?

Not clear from the pictures and you will need to if you haven't.

Otherwise looks great and have presented similar for test and got a pass

[GingerNuttz]

Have to weld a seam along the bottom since it's a repair panel, you can only spot weld complete new panels. 

I think this is right but not 100% so you should check. 

[juular]

19 minutes ago, GingerNuttz said:

Have to weld a seam along the bottom since it's a repair panel, you can only spot weld complete new panels. 

I think this is right but not 100% so you should check. 

I thought spot / plug welds were ok where the original panel was spot welded at the factory?

[chodweaver]

29 minutes ago, juular said:

I thought spot / plug welds were ok where the original panel was spot welded at the factory?

Not if it's a patch - I've been caught out with this before when a professional welder didn't do a seam weld and the retest was a re-fail. Most galling.

[juular]

13 minutes ago, chodweaver said:

Not if it's a patch - I've been caught out with this before when a professional welder didn't do a seam weld and the retest was a re-fail. Most galling.

Not speaking with any authority here, just genuinely trying to get the answer..

The MOT Appendix A:10 says:

You can only pass spot welded repairs if the original panel was spot welded and the original panel or section has been removed. Stitch or plug welding can be used instead of spot welding.

By the inclusion of 'panel or section' I thought that would mean you could cut a section out, seam weld where necessary and plug weld where originally spot welded.

As an example, I did this to fix the rear sill on my 240. Original metal cut out. Repair section seam welded all round except where originally spot welded.

It's academic as it was not an MOT fail to begin with (car hasn't had a test in 12 years), plus I flattened everything out so it's impossible to tell.

But would that, technically, fail the above description?

[GingerNuttz]

48 minutes ago, juular said:

I thought spot / plug welds were ok where the original panel was spot welded at the factory?

I know when I spot welded a still patch on a Focus years ago my uncle failed it and told me to seam weld it, I've seam and spot welded them ever since.

He told me if you replace the whole panel you can spot it but if it's a part it must be 100% seamed, stupid rules since it doesn't make a bit of difference but I've just went with it. 

 

[DoctorRetro]

I think I'll just weld a seam, that was the original plan. I was waiting to get the seam sealer and cold galv primer before doing any more though. 

[Scruffy Bodger]

I'm with @juular on this one, I've done a bunch of repairs on different vehicles and if the original panel or section I have replaced was spot welded I plug weld it in that area at the same distances as the manufacturer and have never fallen foul of an MOT tester yet. Like anything else with a rule book tho it's always down to interpretation and some testers might get the wrong end of the stick.

[stuboy]

are you using a flap wheel to clean up the welds?

[Dave_Q]

I think plug welds are the best way, the car is put together in the factory with 2 lips spot welded together which gives it some of it's strength.

If it's only seam welded at the bottom edge but not also plug welded it won't be as strong, for example when you try to jack it up on that lip the 2 sides can now peel apart under the upwards force.

Hope that makes sense.

[rickvw72]

All cars are a mass of overlapping seams, spot welds and many have large gaps bunged up with sealer!

(look at a shell that’s been dipped!)

Plug welds are fine when the original method was spot welds. I’ve plug welded the floorpans of the Fourtrak to the sills. It was a row of spots before.

Good work saving this, welding is all practice and you’ve made an excellent start.

[DoctorRetro]

3 hours ago, stuboy said:

are you using a flap wheel to clean up the welds?

Yep

3 hours ago, Dave_Q said:

plug welds are the best way,

Going to have to research what a plug weld is and how to do one.   

[somewhatfoolish]

41 minutes ago, DoctorRetro said:

Yep

Going to have to research what a plug weld is and how to do one.   

It's using a MIG welder to impersonate the spot welds that are done in the factory; drill a hole in one piece(usually the repair panel), clamp the two panels together, weld through the hole to fill it up and end up with a blob of weld that solidly joins the two panels together. Grind the blob flat and then paint. @juular's and @Scruffy Bodger's pictures above have excellent examples of the art.

[vulgalour]

The only problem with your welding is you've learned a new skill so a whole new world of project vehicles just opened up before you.  Thoughts and Prayers.

[Dobloseven]

I plug weld along seams, ie. sill bottoms. Looks much neater,and gives the job a "factory finish" if you dress them down to look like spot welds. Not too sure on the Mot status as I've always done the work and painted it up before the test. I use the punch on a joddler to make the holes. Much quicker and neater than drilling, so long as they're near an edge. 

[Tommyboy12]

8 hours ago, DoctorRetro said:

Yep

Going to have to research what a plug weld is and how to do one.   

Plug welding is basically making a hole in the top layer of two sandwiched pieces of metal then filling that hole with weld so that the two pieces are now joined in a similar fashion to a spot weld. As you have already welded the panel to the car you will probably need a spot weld drill bit to create the holes. 6 or 8mm.

[Scruffy Bodger]

Unless you have a really well set up welder that sparks up on the B of the Bang I wouldn't go for 6mm holes, even if the spot welds you drill out are. Drill them out to 8mm, especially if you are a novice, it's surprising just how much difference there is that that extra 2mm will give area wise.