invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[barrett]

Top bombing by all involved in the rescue mission. I haven't been this excited by a vehicular purchase for a long time. Really looking forward actually seeing it, and making a start on getting it cleaned up so we can better assess the condition. It does seem to be in better condition than I could have hoped.

[Zelandeth]

Damnit...now I'm even more irked I'm stuck looking after a guest for the next fortnight...

[LightBulbFun]

12 hours ago, CaptainBoom said:

Well done to all involved, that's bloody excellent!  You've been involved in more invalid carriage rescues than I've had hot dinners, (said whilst scoffing down a cold pasta ready meal)

Thanks! yeah I have been involved in quite a few now! I know the figure is at over 20 now! in terms of ones that I have been involved with in some fashion with helping save it or helping the owner get its details sorted so it becomes viable to be saved   

7 hours ago, AdgeCutler said:

Glad you worked something out Dez, my mind can now rest easy! I had been battling myself on this one, three main things stopped me. 1, the seller never posted any price, which to me usually feels like they are ambitious! 2, lack of glass, which I now see wasn't a problem. 3, I need to finish other projects that have been patiently waiting in the queue.

I look forward to reading more on this stylish little gem.

Thanks! if it makes you feel better I was mentioning you quite a bit throughout the discussions on how to save this thing! so dont worry (or maybe I should say do worry!) you might get roped into it still  

aim of the game was first to grab it and stash, then figure out what to do with it later! obviously hopefully get it sorted but yeah, in true autoshite fashion, first of all grab and secure it then worry about the rest later   and indeed glass side windows did not become a thing until about 1961 or so! even early Invacar Mk12's (and AC Acedes) had side screens only! (but none of those survive sadly, very few full bodied machines from before about 1963 survive full stop sadly, and quite a few are sadly extinct as far as we know, stuff like the Invacar Mk10-10A-11, Barrett Minor, the Harper Mk4 etc, and what does survive is all single digits or sole survivors, only 1 Harper Mk1 is known, only 3 Barrett Midgets, only 1 Stanley Mk7 etc and thats one of the things that makes this Harper mk6 such an amazing find! now yeah if someone can find an Invacar Mk10-10A or 11 that would be epic!)

10 hours ago, somewhatfoolish said:

Need to track down that leccy Harper now, complete the set.

I was mentioning 61HPA  the problem is people see "Travellers camp" and tend to get scared for some reason LOL the parallels in the story of 61HPA and 447FPH are frightfully similar so I am especially pleased I was able to prevent history from repeating itself!

3 hours ago, Mrs6C said:

It is a 'bonny wee thing' as folk in Scotland might say.

Interesting read, that Harper review. I see it mentions a dual control version having been produced and also that private vehicles were made, for customers in the UK and abroad.

@barrettknows about this one already, I think, but a Harper Mk6 featured in the excellent Spanish film 'El Cochecito' ('The Little Coach').  lt is used as a two seater car in the film. Perhaps Harper made two seat versions for foreign markets.

A snippet from the film, featuring the Harper and lots of other invalid carriages / cars of various types (probably unknown in the UK) is here:

The film is worth finding,. It came out in 1960 and is a cunning, witty and satirical black comedy,  that pokes at the social attitudes and politics of Spain at that time. Its original ending was banned in Franco's Spain, so an alternative ending was filmed for domestic audiences. The original version of the film was distributed outside Spain, so both versions can be found.

Without revealing the actual plot on here, a couple of reviews of the film can be found here for those who don't mind about Spoilers!
https://moviesteve.com/review-cochecito-wheelchair/
https://www.closeupfilmcentre.com/film_programmes/2019/pere-portabella/el-cochecito/

indeed I have seen that one  I do think however that it is a single seater that a 2nd person is quite litreally riding shotgun in! with careful arrangements I think you can get 3 or 4 people into full bodied machine!

there is however this curious early Prototype that Barrett posted a while back, which has a windscreen wiper notably justified to the right, which does make me wonder if this one really was a 2 seater of some kind? still only 1 door mind! (AC's 2 Seater Model 70 prototype of 1967, was already a 2 door machine)

 

On 12/02/2020 at 14:43, barrett said:

807 BP?

I think I have worked out that it's the Harper that was styled by Spike Rhiando. Still definitely the best invalid carriage out there.

another part of me has to wonder if this is one of the fabled Harpermatic?, I mean what would those extra side vents be for? I always understood the Harpermatic's  to be post release machines, but I have never really have actually seen much on them at all, maybe they where actually early Prototypes? 

it is worth noting that review that the Harper Mk6 they review is NOT ministry coloured an in-fact I wonder if its the same one seen here? I know Black and white films back then where least sensitive to red light, so its red roof would show up quite dark as it does

3 hours ago, High Jetter said:

Well done to the four of you but especially Deal Driving Dez! 

haha thanks  there was also the remains of a Nelco Solocar, but they where mysteriously absent when the harper was collected! but I am not complaining too much, I am glad it was only the Solocar remains that where missing, and not the Harper itself!

although the Motor from the Solocar remains would have gone nicely into one of @Mrs6C's railway projects! 

2 hours ago, dollywobbler said:

Happy news indeed. I do hope we can have a gathering of these vehicles at some point. Am hoping to carry out bodywork and mechanical improvements on TWC this year.

indeed I have been hoping for a large gathering of Invalid vehicles for some time now I think it would be epic! Just hoping I will have REV with me when it does happen! and yeah I am really looking forward to TWC's summer spruce up  

I still wonder about the seized distributor, is there really no way to free that off?

 

2 hours ago, barrett said:

Top bombing by all involved in the rescue mission. I haven't been this excited by a vehicular purchase for a long time. Really looking forward actually seeing it, and making a start on getting it cleaned up so we can better assess the condition. It does seem to be in better condition than I could have hoped.

Yeah! I too cant wait to see it in person! and study the ever living daylights out of it  

 

2 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

Damnit...now I'm even more irked I'm stuck looking after a guest for the next fortnight...

ahh yeah! I was thinking of you (and as above @AdgeCutler also) with this with regards to the fact the engine does turn over, so I do wonder if we could get it running in a weekend?  

my main question I am currently wondering with regards to that is how does one start a 2 stroke engine thats been sleeping for a long time? as in I know with a 4 stroke petrol engine, you disconnect the ignition and let it crank over to build up some oil pressure to relubicrate itself, but a 2 stroke engine obviously has no separate oil system

so how do you wake one of those up gently? is what i am currently wondering! 

 

[Snake Charmer]

6 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

so how do you wake one of those up gently? is what i am currently wondering! 

 

If it's  pre-mix, take the plug cap off and turn it over then check to see if the plug is wet.

[Zelandeth]

It's a two stroke, and a simple one at that...if it's not seized already, stuff some premix down the plug hole to lube the cylinder walls, and some down the throat of the carb to make sure there's some in the bottom end.  Spin it over by hand a good few times with the plug out to make sure everything that wants to be wet is and that there aren't any horrific tight spots.

Most likely with a clean of the points & a clean plug that would get it to fire.  Actually running on its own will most likely need the carb thoroughly cleaned unless you're both really lucky and it was stored without fuel in the bowl - though I've been proven wrong there in the past.  

I'd also want all the tinwork off the engine to make sure there aren't any mouse or wasp nests in there clogging up the cooling fins before running the engine for more than a couple of minutes.

Oh, and make sure the gearbox has oil in too.  I don't *think* these have a wet clutch, but I imagine you've memorised the manuals better than I have by now!

[worldofceri]

16 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

if it's not seized already

We had trouble finding neutral initially, so we actually managed to turn the engine when moving it.  Deffo* not seized.

[LightBulbFun]

2 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

It's a two stroke, and a simple one at that...if it's not seized already, stuff some premix down the plug hole to lube the cylinder walls, and some down the throat of the carb to make sure there's some in the bottom end.  Spin it over by hand a good few times with the plug out to make sure everything that wants to be wet is and that there aren't any horrific tight spots.

Awesome! thats exactly what I was looking for so to speak! i knew to chuck something down the plug hole would worth doing, but I was not sure how to lube the bottom end and all that, because again theres no separate oil pool but of course, a 2 Stroke breaths through the crank case and all that, so chucking something down the intake should do the trick as you say  

2 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

Oh, and make sure the gearbox has oil in too.  I don't *think* these have a wet clutch, but I imagine you've memorised the manuals better than I have by now!

and yeah thats a good shout on the gearbox! not sure  what the clutch arrangement is on this, @AdgeCutlerwhats the clutch Arrangement on Brian? I imagine this will be something similar (although again this is somewhat older uncharted territory, the period review makes mention of a reduction box for example! and I imagine it will be a Villiers 9E rather then the later 11E)

ill have to badger Stuart to see if he has a Handbook for a Harper or not  

[AdgeCutler]

The 9e and 11e Villiers units are very nearly the same unit, only very minor differences. On the cooling fan side you will have the primary chain case which also houses the wet clutch. The clutch comprises of a "basket", the plates and drive plates as with many a motor cycle.  

I have somewhere here an original manual for a 9e which is yours should you like it.

On the subject of manuals, did the 12e one and tool roll ever turn up, @Mrs6C, @Zelandeth ?

[Zelandeth]

No, it's still MIA somewhere within 10 feet of where I'm sitting, which is royally bugging me.  

I've established it's not in what was the pile of crap by my workstation, so the only explanation is that it got tidied away before Christmas - so must be in one of two boxes upstairs.

I know for a fact it hasn't left the premises, or indeed gone downstairs after I scanned the bloody brochures so there's only so many options - and they were "by the printer" or "got put away in the great pre-Xmas rage tidy of 2021." I was hoping for the former as it didn't involve going spelunking in the loft, however I've not been that lucky it seems.

Unless it is actually sitting somewhere in this room staring me in the damned face and I'm just blind.  Which honestly wouldn't surprise me.

[HMC]

Is there space for wheelchair provision if the user so needs? 

[LightBulbFun]

22 minutes ago, HMC said:

Is there space for wheelchair provision if the user so needs? 

indeed there is next to the driver, the 1957 specifications is where things really got "serious" in this regard and the ministry demanded machines had to be a lot more car like

hence the rise of the Harper, AC Acedes, and Invacar Mk10-11-12   and this is also about when the Model 8 Folding wheel chair came into being, which was the Standard Ministry issue wheel chair for a very long time  

 

[LightBulbFun]

in Model 70 news, the Port hole car is back up for sale for like, 4th or 5th time? still the same chap LOL

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/266212332758

it is on FaceBook market place again, which may give us some idea what the reserve is set too

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/178575101675523/

he seems to think its worth all of the money for some reason...

[OldBlokeInACaravan]

@LightBulbFunWell done in rescuing the Harper Mk6, it is rather glorious, I look forward to following it's progress.  I do dip in and out of the forum occasionally.....it's been far too loooooooong since contributing for many reasons..... But my carriages are all good, the manual ones were sold but I have other powered ones, more info another time..... 

in the meantime, I have spotted these up for sale.....on Faceache marketplace, the lovely restored Harding Consort at £3,500

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/916885006217678

The next one is a petrol Harding at £1,650.  I have spoken to the bloke previously, it comes with a trailer, a reg number, no paperwork, he won't split the trailer from it, the engine's seized, it's a bit of a wreck and I reckon overpriced, and not complete....thoughts?? 

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/538416255094082

 

 

 

[LightBulbFun]

43 minutes ago, OldBlokeInACaravan said:

@LightBulbFunWell done in rescuing the Harper Mk6, it is rather glorious, I look forward to following it's progress.  I do dip in and out of the forum occasionally.....it's been far too loooooooong since contributing for many reasons..... But my carriages are all good, the manual ones were sold but I have other powered ones, more info another time..... 

in the meantime, I have spotted these up for sale.....on Faceache marketplace, the lovely restored Harding Consort at £3,500

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/916885006217678

The next one is a petrol Harding at £1,650.  I have spoken to the bloke previously, it comes with a trailer, a reg number, no paperwork, he won't split the trailer from it, the engine's seized, it's a bit of a wreck and I reckon overpriced, and not complete....thoughts?? 

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/538416255094082

 

 

 

Thanks! good to hear your still about!    hopefully your powered carriages are serving you well?  

 

and thanks for the heads up on the 2 machines , I had not spotted that @Rsalmon60 had popped the consort up for sale! hopefully it finds a good home  

I have known of the Harding for a bit, was talking with Stuart about it, but KLH736 is a London Registration mark, no chance of getting that back without a buff logbook sadly, so would be a dating cert+age related number jobby, defo not worth £1650 IMHO! still neat to see it retained its (last?) tax disc tho! 

[brummiejon]

15 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

I have known of the Harding for a bit, was talking with Stuart about it, but KLH736 is a London Registration mark, no chance of getting that back without a buff logbook sadly, so would be a dating cert+age related number jobby, defo not worth £1650 IMHO! still neat to see it retained its (last?) tax disc tho! 

If my experience to date is anything to go by, even with paperwork there’s not much chance of retaining the original registration and getting an age related one isn’t straightforward either….. 

[eifion]

A picture of DPL 857J has just appeared on the Manchester Evening News website. Are you aware of this one, @LightBulbFun? 

[LightBulbFun]

15 minutes ago, eifion said:

A picture of DPL 857J has just appeared on the Manchester Evening News website. Are you aware of this one, @LightBulbFun? 

Oooh not seen that picture before, was aware of the DPL-J block from other pictures/research, but had not seen that specific picture/car before, its a nice pic  

funnily enough, its another reverse control machine!, again note as well as the door, how even the tow bar is on the opposite side to what its normally on

[brummiejon]

I was only watching a boat race honest….

 

[Skut]

On 4/15/2023 at 4:29 AM, somewhatfoolish said:

Need to track down that leccy Harper now, complete the set.

Wish granted sort of. This appeared on my FB feed on a Scrapyards from the good old days Group. I'm no expert but it looks like a Harper Mk6. I was intrigued enough by the rakish lines to go digging on the net till I got a match. Only downside is it doesn't say where it is except it's in a field. I guess you could message the guy that posted it.

[somewhatfoolish]

Ok, the number of surviving leccy Harper Mk6s just doubled. That is quite sad looking though, you'd need to be determined to restore that unless a shell is found.

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, Skut said:

Wish granted sort of. This appeared on my FB feed on a Scrapyards from the good old days Group. I'm no expert but it looks like a Harper Mk6. I was intrigued enough by the rakish lines to go digging on the net till I got a match. Only downside is it doesn't say where it is except it's in a field. I guess you could message the guy that posted it.

Oh wow! thats a find! as @somewhatfoolish says that makes for 2 know surviving Harper Mk6 Electrics now! or well at least 2 known to be extant, as said its a shame that this one is so badly broken! looks like the entire front roof and front end are just missing!

but very much worth rescuing for parts and patterns if nothing else, especially if your planning to rescue 61HPA, which is the other electric harper, and the one I was referring to with my comment  

its worth noting that 120DPF makes its a pretty early Harper Mk6, first ones to show up where on 123Cxx Surrey plates 

being blue coloured like it is would point to it being a private machine rather then a Ministry machine (all Ministry electric machines where grey, although with regards to 61HPA, Stuart thinks it is also a private machine, I guess one that the buyer never changed the default options on?)

@Skut is it a closed or open Facebook group? are you able to share with me the details? although sadly I think id have a hard time getting this saved given no one wants to save 61HPA, they hear "electric machine" and "travellers camp" and get cold feet for some reason! no love for the electrics eh! maybe I need to tag @Kiltox in on this so he can rescue it for a head to head with his Ami  

61HPA really still makes me sad, as you can really see just how nice a shape it was in, before it was bought as a play thing and dumped, note not only the shiny head lamp trim rings still, and I have pictures of its interior that also similarly show that it was in really good shape before it had started to fall to the elements 

 

 

[wuvvum]

Just looking at the under bonnet pics of that Harper you've collectively bought.  Were all of the Villiers-engined machines 1-wheel-drive?

[LightBulbFun]

49 minutes ago, wuvvum said:

Just looking at the under bonnet pics of that Harper you've collectively bought.  Were all of the Villiers-engined machines 1-wheel-drive?

indeed All Villiers machine where one wheel drive Yo, as @AdgeCutler will tell you, a different sort of torque steer! 

took until the Model 70 for a differential to finally arrive on the petrol side of things, and more then 33% of the road wheels to become driven (On a Model 70 its 66% of the road wheels that are driven, technically better then most cars which only have 50% of their road wheels driven LOL)

however the AC All Weather Tricycle Model 43, the genesis of the full bodied machine, did also have a differential, but that was a BSA C10 powered machine

 

ironically pretty much all Ministry electric machines had a differential, going all the way back to the Model 44 Stanley Argson, the motor always just bolted directly to it usually, that always tickled me, because they really did not need one, with a top speed of 12-15Mph! 

[brummiejon]

3 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

Oh wow! thats a find! as @somewhatfoolish says that makes for 2 know surviving Harper Mk6 Electrics now! or well at least 2 known to be extant, as said its a shame that this one is so badly broken! looks like the entire front roof and front end are just missing!

but very much worth rescuing for parts and patterns if nothing else, especially if your planning to rescue 61HPA, which is the other electric harper, and the one I was referring to with my comment  

its worth noting that 120DPF makes its a pretty early Harper Mk6, first ones to show up where on 123Cxx Surrey plates 

being blue coloured like it is would point to it being a private machine rather then a Ministry machine (all Ministry electric machines where grey, although with regards to 61HPA, Stuart thinks it is also a private machine, I guess one that the buyer never changed the default options on?)

@Skut is it a closed or open Facebook group? are you able to share with me the details? although sadly I think id have a hard time getting this saved given no one wants to save 61HPA, they hear "electric machine" and "travellers camp" and get cold feet for some reason! no love for the electrics eh! maybe I need to tag @Kiltox in on this so he can rescue it for a head to head with his Ami  

61HPA really still makes me sad, as you can really see just how nice a shape it was in, before it was bought as a play thing and dumped, note not only the shiny head lamp trim rings still, and I have pictures of its interior that also similarly show that it was in really good shape before it had started to fall to the elements 

 

 

If I had the room, I’d love this as an evolution to my Stanley Argson Electric

[Skut]

3 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

Oh wow! thats a find! as @somewhatfoolish says that makes for 2 know surviving Harper Mk6 Electrics now! or well at least 2 known to be extant, as said its a shame that this one is so badly broken! looks like the entire front roof and front end are just missing!

but very much worth rescuing for parts and patterns if nothing else, especially if your planning to rescue 61HPA, which is the other electric harper, and the one I was referring to with my comment  

its worth noting that 120DPF makes its a pretty early Harper Mk6, first ones to show up where on 123Cxx Surrey plates 

being blue coloured like it is would point to it being a private machine rather then a Ministry machine (all Ministry electric machines where grey, although with regards to 61HPA, Stuart thinks it is also a private machine, I guess one that the buyer never changed the default options on?)

@Skut is it a closed or open Facebook group? are you able to share with me the details? although sadly I think id have a hard time getting this saved given no one wants to save 61HPA, they hear "electric machine" and "travellers camp" and get cold feet for some reason! no love for the electrics eh! maybe I need to tag @Kiltox in on this so he can rescue it for a head to head with his Ami  

61HPA really still makes me sad, as you can really see just how nice a shape it was in, before it was bought as a play thing and dumped, note not only the shiny head lamp trim rings still, and I have pictures of its interior that also similarly show that it was in really good shape before it had started to fall to the elements 

 

 

It's a private FB group called Scrapyards from the Good Old Days. Nothing to stop you joining of course. I've messaged the guy that posted it to ask where it is.  

There may be more of it there than appears in the photographs. The roof and front could be nearby in the undergrowth. 

[LightBulbFun]

fucking hell seems to be the fortnight for it! check out this current photo I have just found!

Yes thats a special adapted AC Acedes Model 57*, just finding AN picture of one of these is rare enough, let alone to know that one still survives out there! 

sadly I have no more details of current, but you can bet ill be chasing this one up! furthermore I dont think not a known special either, all of the Adapted Acedes currently known about as having existed back in the day are floppy tops, this is the first hard top machine I have seen certainly 

very much in need of saving if its not already in good hands, although going by the Mini based thing and Reliant ant next to it, i have a bad feeling it has just been parked up to rot, but i really hope I am wrong and its with someone who has just recently saved it who is just sorting out better storage for it

*well I say AC Acedes Model 57, but it well could be an AC Electric Invalid Tricycle Model 64, cant tell from this angle which it is sadly

[D.E]

2 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

fucking hell seems to be the fortnight for it! check out this current photo I have just found!

very much in need of saving if its not already in good hands, although going by the Mini based thing and Reliant ant next to it, i have a bad feeling it has just been parked up to rot

Did you not see Postman Pat in the background?😁 Purely judging by this picture, it is my impression that they could be functioning as decoration, wherever they are.

[HMC]

7 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

fucking hell seems to be the fortnight for it! check out this current photo I have just found!

Yes thats a special adapted AC Acedes Model 57* like just finding AN picture of one of these is rare enough, let alone to know that one still survives out there! 

sadly I have no more details of current, but you can bet ill be chasing this one up! furthermore I dont think not a known special either, all of the Adapted Acedes currently known about as having existed back in the day are floppy tops, this is the first hard top machine I have seen certainly 

very much in need of saving if its not already in good hands, although going by the Mini based thing and Reliant ant next to it, i have a bad feeling it has just been parked up to rot, but i really hope I am wrong and its with someone who has just recently saved it who is just sorting out better storage for it

*well I say AC Acedes Model 57, but it well could be an AC Electric Invalid Tricycle Model 64, cant tell from this angle which it is sadly

There appears to be a skeleton in the blue vehicle if you zoom in.

Is that a mini windscreen on that middle vehicle? 🧐

[LightBulbFun]

Just now, HMC said:

Is that a mini windscreen on that middle vehicle? 🧐

its a small "kei truck" type kit car using Mini mechanicals, so I would not be surprised if its a mini windscreen? as the front says its known as a "Jiffy" 

I think someone has posted about them on here before, certainly I knew what it was as I saw it before even reading the front if that makes sense!

[LightBulbFun]

as an aside, a few days ago @AdgeCutler sent me this Photo of Brian completely embarrassing a Nissan So called "Micra"  

(works just as well with Model 70's as I demonstrated with REV back on page 227  )