invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[bobdisk]

@brummiejon Thats a strange voltage tap arrangement, never seen one that uses toggle switches.

[red5]

12 hours ago, High Jetter said:

Brakes sorted, hopefully?

Yep - service and parking.

Hopefully will work Monday am, unlike the previous, myriad attempts of working, leave, not working. Bluntly - previous 'repairs/maintenance' or lack thereof.

 

[High Jetter]

10 hours ago, red5 said:

Yep - service and parking.

Hopefully will work Monday am, unlike the previous, myriad attempts of working, leave, not working. Bluntly - previous 'repairs/maintenance' or lack thereof.

 

Progress, and hopefully an education for the slaves students.

[brummiejon]

Just had more depressing news on Flo’s registration from the DVLA… they have rejected my application for an age  related number plate due to insufficient evidence of the vehicles date of manufacture….  Even with a photo of the engine plate that clearly states 1953

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, brummiejon said:

Just had more depressing news on Flo’s registration from the DVLA… they have rejected my application for an age  related number plate due to insufficient evidence of the vehicles date of manufacture….  Even with a photo of the engine plate that clearly states 1953

is this with or without an accompanying dating letter from the ICR or other relevant body? you generally always need someone the DVLA sees as proper, to sign off on it and say "I can confirm that this Stanley Argson is from 1953 based on such factors"

without a dating letter like this the DVLA will always reject such applications sadly

[brummiejon]

4 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

is this with or without an accompanying dating letter from the ICR or other relevant body? you generally always need someone the DVLA sees as proper, to sign off on it and say "I can confirm that this Stanley Argson is from 1953 based on such factors"

without a dating letter like this the DVLA will always reject such applications sadly

Yes, the letter from Simon of the ICR was included 

[bobdisk]

@LightBulbFun , could you help @brummiejon  out with the unco-operative DVLA with your wonderful knowledge of their peculiar workings ? There must be a way of getting a proper registration for Flo. 

[brummiejon]

29 minutes ago, bobdisk said:

@LightBulbFun , could you help @brummiejon  out with the unco-operative DVLA with your wonderful knowledge of their peculiar workings ? There must be a way of getting a proper registration for Flo. 

The DVLA have helpfully told me that “rubbings” of the frame and engine numbers are more acceptable than photographs because photographs can be altered…. As if a brass rubbing could not be forged 😂

[bobdisk]

Not heard of that one before! But if they say it will work do it!!!

[brummiejon]

1 minute ago, bobdisk said:

Not heard of that one before! But if they say it will work do it!!!

I’d advise everyone to do it from now on

[bobdisk]

@LightBulbFun, have you heard of this?

[LightBulbFun]

yeah rubbings are something the DVLA do accept/suggest as a means of providing proof of vehicle identity

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/688339/response/1638621/attach/3/Annex 1.pdf

indeed nothing is infallible, and this is part of the problem is over time people have taken the piss out of the process, claiming numbers they have no right to for vehicles that dont exist etc etc

so the DVLA have continued to try and batten down the hatches on it, but there is the problem as seen here that there are a lot of edge cases that just dont fit within the DVLA's strict requirements these days

 

as mentioned a Chassis number was not even a legal requirement until about 1983, so Id still love to know how the DVLA would handle those vehicles, which legitimately  never had any sort of chassis number of any sort!

 

having spoken to Jon, it turns out that a dating letter was not provided with the request for an age related number, so its not surprising the DVLA have rejected the application, since they cant issue an age related mark if they dont know what year/age to issue for!

once a suitable dating letter is got then the DVLA should issue an appropriate age related plate and setup a vehicle record as according to the supplied V55/5  

[egg]

Hey LBF, tricky subject I know, but could you not get on to Simon about getting you as the named ICR DVLA registration contact - you just wouldn't make mistakes given your attention to detail.

[barrett]

Just FYI I saw my first car with the new series of period registration this weekend - I didn't know what the new series would be, now 'BF' had run out (or I'd forgotten), but it's 'WC', which is rather unfortunate...

[brummiejon]

1 minute ago, barrett said:

Just FYI I saw my first car with the new series of period registration this weekend - I didn't know what the new series would be, now 'BF' had run out (or I'd forgotten), but it's 'WC', which is rather unfortunate...

Great…. Looking forward to seeing that on Flo…. Not befitting of such a regal heritage…  Florence Day MBE will be turning in her grave… maybe I should call her “Commode” instead.

[LightBulbFun]

52 minutes ago, barrett said:

Just FYI I saw my first car with the new series of period registration this weekend - I didn't know what the new series would be, now 'BF' had run out (or I'd forgotten), but it's 'WC', which is rather unfortunate...

hah cool! indeed being the DVLA sad bastard that I am, I had already figured mostly what the next issue would be, 3 years before  it was issued LOL, I have compiled a few of the relevant posts where I talk about it for those curious about it all! I still do wonder when the DVLA do finally run out of 2 letter 4 digit mark for 1930 and older vehicles

On 27/10/2020 at 17:15, LightBulbFun said:

On 27/10/2020 at 17:08, adw1977 said:

I see they are now up to BF9375 (a 1930 Aston Martin) so that's 70 cars in 50 days.  At that rate (which may or may not be typical) the BF series will run out around the end of next year.

Yeah I did some DVLA bashing a little while ago and it looks like for whatever reason BF  has only been issued from BF4001+ onwards

so when they run out they could issue BF1001-BF3999, although I wonder why they have not already (its not like they where issued in period)

and I still wonder what will happen when they do run out of all BF marks entirely, what will the next series be, will we finally see WCxxxx get issued?  

either way eventually we will run out of 2 letter 4 number marks and I wonder what will happen then!

On 20/09/2022 at 23:12, LightBulbFun said:

On 20/09/2022 at 15:20, JimH said:

Note the number plate now fitted to the front. We just don't know what is going to be painted on it yet. 

this is genuinely going to be quite exciting for me because the DVLA are almost at the end of their age related series for 1930 and older vehicles

they are currently up to BF9941 and I dont know what will come next!

as the only 2 letter 4 number series left un-issued as far as I am aware is Essex's WC and BF1001-BF4000 has yet to be issued so I wonder what the DVLA will do

thus depending on when the Sentinel gets a suitable mark allocated to it it may be the first of a new series, and answer a long standing question I have had  

if they do issue the first half of BF finally it will probably be from BF1001 onwards as BF1 to BF1000 has been held for DVLA auction issue

and checking just now it looks like WC1-1000 has also been reserved for DVLA auction issue, so if they decide to issue that instead it will be from WC1001 onwards

(I do wonder what happens when they do finally run out of age related marks for 1930 and older vehicles!)

 

unless of course your V765 for a genuine period registration mark rather then just an age related mark, in which case nothing I said above is relevant LOL

(but still very exciting to hear your at the registration stage and to see it edging close to completion/the road  )

 

On 01/12/2022 at 15:41, adw1977 said:

On 07/09/2020 at 12:34, LightBulbFun said:

as a side note to all this DVLA bashing I notice that the DVLA are getting to the end of the BFxxxx registration series which is the series they issue as age related plates to vehicles from before 1931

currently last one issued at time of posting is BF9306, and im curious what they will do when they run out!

the only 2 digit registration not issued in England AFAIK is the (funnily enough) Essex marker, WC, (it was only ever issued BWC-YWC. AWC, UWC and WC where never issued I guess because water closet, BF was never issued at the time because it stood for bloody fool)

What did happen with this?  I see BF9998 was issued on 25th November 2022, presumably BF9999 would be held back to be sold at a premium, so what series are they now using for pre-1931 vehicles?

 

On 01/12/2022 at 15:51, LightBulbFun said:

On 01/12/2022 at 15:41, adw1977 said:

What did happen with this?  I see BF9998 was issued on 25th November 2022, presumably BF9999 would be held back to be sold at a premium, so what series are they now using for pre-1931 vehicles?

yeah I have been wondering! looks like as I predicted they have started to issue WCxxxx from WC1001  

I wonder if this being an Essex mark, has anything to do with xxx XVW being erroneously issued 

(curious that they did indeed do from 1001, because BFxxxx is only issued from 4001, maybe with that series the DVLA was not sure what was and was not issued before then? (tho as I understand it, BFxxxx although issued in period was quickly withdrawn and those vehicles where given other marks)

 

On 01/12/2022 at 22:59, barrett said:

On 01/12/2022 at 19:40, LightBulbFun said:

haha, they will or should i say, Should be non transferable, being an prefix/suffix-less age related plate they are always meant to be marked non transferable

but said non- transferability is just a check box, so if the DVLA clerk forgets to check that box and thus if you see there is no "Non transferable registration mark" special note, then yeah you would be able to help yourself to it!

and I have seen it happen a few times!

 

I do wonder now of course what will happen when we hit the end of WCxxxx as at that point we really will be out of 2 letter 4 number marks to issue!

Did we use all the IoW (DL) plates in period? I can't imagine so, they might be next

 

On 01/12/2022 at 23:12, LightBulbFun said:

On 01/12/2022 at 22:27, Richard_FM said:

Are all the Scottish AB1234 registrations originally allocated to the smaller counties used up?  I've seen a lot of BS & DS ones.

good question! I thought pretty much all of those have been issued, however I knew that fittingly enough AS  of Nairn CC issue, had been in issue until suffix plates where made mandatory

On 07/09/2020 at 17:16, LightBulbFun said:

I THINK all those have already been used up AFAIK LOL

 EL1000-1500, DS6574+, SL9737+ BS8000+ SV4001+ and BF are all the pre 1931 age related marks  I know of issued or currently being issued

perhaps there are some more small scottish areas that never finished issuing all their original allocation of 2 letter 4 number plates? 

I know for example ASxxxx was issued right to December 1964, but I dont know if they happened to use all of them up or not

(they never issued any AAAxxx plates jumping to AAS-C when in 1965 the Ministry forced everyone onto suffix plates so perhaps after BFxxxx runs out we will see some ASxxxx plates issued? LOL)

Expand  

but I did not know if they had to run to completion or not, so I have been meaning to check how far along they got

and indeed they only issued up to AS4097, and indeed checking the DVLA plate auction history shows that they have sold some of the ones above that mark, so we could see ASxxxx get issued after WCxxxx  runs out! 

and while I was checking for that I also noticed that Zetland CC only got to PS 4080 and Selkirk CC only got to LS 9583, so we could see those left over marks issued

I am a bit curious as to why they had not been issued yet when they where doing the left over Scottish marks like as you say, the remaing DS, SL, BS, and SV xxxx marks where all issued years ago

On 01/12/2022 at 22:59, barrett said:

Did we use all the IoW (DL) plates in period? I can't imagine so, they might be next

DLxxxx was issued to completion by October 1935, so I dont think those will be issued unless the DVLA fuck up again LOL

 

 

 

48 minutes ago, brummiejon said:

52 minutes ago, barrett said:

Just FYI I saw my first car with the new series of period registration this weekend - I didn't know what the new series would be, now 'BF' had run out (or I'd forgotten), but it's 'WC', which is rather unfortunate...

Great…. Looking forward to seeing that on Flo…. Not befitting of such a regal heritage…  Florence Day MBE will be turning in her grave… maybe I should call her “Commode” instead

not quite! Flo is from 1953, so she will get a 1953-1962 age related plate, current series for which is 349XVY, if the DVLA continue to play hard ball regarding RDE346 anyhow

 

speaking of which in regards to 1953-1962 age related marks and this post below, the DVLA also erroneously issued the 1960's already issued in period Essex series of xxxXVX as well, which is really fucking shit, the DVLA have really fucked up with issuing XVW and XVX like this

On 12/11/2022 at 02:25, LightBulbFun said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/295331323807

so this Morris minor that @Cavcraft posted in the eBay tat thread caught my eye because it was nice to see that  it had manage keep its Period Essex registration mark all this time

except its an import and freshly registered with the DVLA!!! which is really concerning!

 

 

so to those who remember my DVLA ramblings, may remember how I explained that the DVLA issue 123ABC style age related registrations by incrementing the last letter (rather then the first, serial, letter as is normally done)

for example the current issue started at 101XVA-998XVA, then 101XVB-998XVB 101XVC-998XVC and so on

and what this does is it changes the "location marker" of the reg, and the reason this all very significant is, in doing so they do run into locations that did issue 123Xxx in period and thus the DVLA normally skip those

but 1XVW-999XVW is as above a period  registration mark issued from June 1961 to August 1961! see for example on the DVLA, 500XVW or 835XVW as examples of the mark as it was issued in period

never before have I EVER seen the DVLA issue previously issued marks as age related plates

simply because there is no way of knowing if a previously issued mark indeed does still belong to a car out there somewhere, so they will normally skip over already issued marks to avoid accidentally duplicating an existing mark

 

and this is really concerning that the DVLA have suddenly done this, because I dont know now what happens if someone has a period xxxXVW car and they want to V765 it?

(and xxxXVW being an Essex mark could easily contain a block of Invacar Mk12's for example!)

 

I highly suspect that this has been done in error,

with someone at the DVLA just blindly going from one letter to another

although it is worth noting that strangely XVV does not look to have been issued as an age related series it should of (xxxXVV was never issued in period so is safe to issue as an age related series) but XVU has been suitably issued as an age related series,

so I almost wonder if someone got XVV and XVW mixed up and issued the wrong series?

 

but regardless of how its happened, its still really bloody concerning! because what happens if someone does actually happen to find the real Car that 775XVW was actually issued to back in the day? and what for example that car was another Morris minor and now the DVLA is seeing someone try and V62 for a Morris minor with the "wrong chassis number" ? this is why the DVLA would never normally re-issue old marks and why its really concerning to see it has happened!

 

I almost wonder if anyone knows who I might be able to contact at the DVLA about this....

 

 

as a side note somewhat Ironically someone has (sadly) plated Robbed an ex Factory (Invacar) Registered Greeves Motorcycle so its gone from Essex mark to Essex mark!

it will be interesting to see what happens when they get to xxxXVX as that is also a period Essex registration mark issued in full back in the day, so I really hope they dont fuck it up twice by also issuing it as an age related series!

 

 

[adw1977]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

DVLA also erroneously issued the 1960's already issued in period Essex series of xxxXVX

Are they definitely issuing numbers that have already been issued, as opposed to unissued numbers within a series that was only partly used in period?

[LightBulbFun]

54 minutes ago, adw1977 said:

Are they definitely issuing numbers that have already been issued, as opposed to unissued numbers within a series that was only partly used in period?

pretty positive! because Essex was one of the County councils that really did exhausted all of their suffix-less marks it was Essex that finally got OO and WC issued as valid registration marks/location marks after all their existing location marker allocations possibilities/combinations had been exhausted (although WC was never issued on its own and OO was never issued in reverse 4 number 2 digit) OO was however issued on its own, which was a bit of fun registration madness as suddenly a bunch of 1904-1930's style registration marks where "released" and issued in 1961! not sure if that counts as early or late registration madness!, as seen fittingly enough on this Invacar Mk12  which is OO259

and they where one of the few county councils outside of the well known Middlesex (and the new Scottish CC's) to have issue A suffix plates in period as well, as even with the 1960/1961 additions of OO and WC (and all the new combinations that gave) they still ran out of marks towards the end of 1963

In theory because of all of this Invacar Mk12's may have existed with all Major British registration mark types  (apart from Prefix and current plate styles of course!) id love to find a picture of an A Suffix Mk12 In period and 4 number 2 letter reverse plate one as well (the Invacar Mk12 was introduced in 1960 and the last of those plates where issued by Essex in 1960 so they just about overlap)

I have also come across examples of xxxXVW and xxxXVX vehicles on the DVLA that where from period, so I know for a fact they did indeed issue that series there, see for example 500XVW, 835XVW, or 600XVX which are all from period (especially note 500XVW and 600XVX as as the DVLA explicitly dont issue round numbers for age related series)

 

I think/hope that xxxXVW and xxxXVX are isolated cases/fuckups by the DVLA (note that xxxXVV was NOT issued as an age related series, despite never being issued in period, so would of been safe to issue today, and should of been issued as an age related series, so again I think someone got their series mixed up) but its still really bad on the DVLA's part, as they normally explicitly avoid the re-issue of registration marks that where issued previously in period (because you never know when the vehicle it was issued to might still be alive in barn somewhere or such!)

[AdgeCutler]

On 3/27/2023 at 8:17 PM, egg said:

Hey LBF, tricky subject I know, but could you not get on to Simon about getting you as the named ICR DVLA registration contact - you just wouldn't make mistakes given your attention to detail.

Also LBF actually is active and makes himself freely available, I may be wrong but it seems "the others" are skulking in the shadows, definitely not easily accessible. I do realise there can be a huge amount of hours to be lost pursuing such causes such as this and I wouldn't want to do it (nor have the correct mind for it), from what I see though Dez would embrace it?

[brummiejon]

11 hours ago, AdgeCutler said:

Also LBF actually is active and makes himself freely available, I may be wrong but it seems "the others" are skulking in the shadows, definitely not easily accessible. I do realise there can be a huge amount of hours to be lost pursuing such causes such as this and I wouldn't want to do it (nor have the correct mind for it), from what I see though Dez would embrace it?

I’m starting to get research fatigue…. All of the organisations that I need help from are ran by volunteers and they are all too under resourced to be able to look through archives that I know exist… I can’t do anymore without their help… 

[brummiejon]

7 minutes ago, brummiejon said:

I’m starting to get research fatigue…. All of the organisations that I need help from are ran by volunteers and they are all too under resourced to be able to look through archives that I know exist… I can’t do anymore without their help… 

Just had an email from Pembrokeshire county council with whom I got RDE 346 registration documents….. they say that they have supplied hundreds  of registration documents that don’t have a chassis or frame number  for registration purposes and I am the first person to report problems with the DVLA…. I will print this out and include it with my next attempt to get Flo on the road….

[brummiejon]

Having another totally amateur look at Flo’s battery charger…. After finding a broken connection and a broken fuse holder I’ve been running some tests on the 200v range 100v range switch, I attached the multimeter black lead to the -ve input and tested all the terminals with the red multimeter lead… I think the switch is toast…. I’d be grateful for some input from any electrical engineers here

[Mr Pastry]

You are dealing with mains voltages and very old equipment.  This is dangerous if you don't really know what you are doing.    It's not worth the risk, and it isn't safe for anyone to talk you through it,  especially without seeing a complete circuit diagram for the charger.

I'm not even sure the switch is wired correctly, if it's what I think it is.  The link between the bottom two terminals is questionable - but guesswork isn't good enough here.   Get a competent electrician to look at it.

 

[brummiejon]

13 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

You are dealing with mains voltages and very old equipment.  This is dangerous if you don't really know what you are doing.    It's not worth the risk, and it isn't safe for anyone to talk you through it,  especially without seeing a complete circuit diagram for the charger.

I'm not even sure the switch is wired correctly, if it's what I think it is.  The link between the bottom two terminals is questionable - but guesswork isn't good enough here.   Get a competent electrician to look at it.

 

There is no wiring diagram but I take your point thanks

[Mr Pastry]

1 hour ago, brummiejon said:

There is no wiring diagram but I take your point thanks

FWIW you could bypass most of that panel, as surely you will only be charging from 240v.  

[brummiejon]

3 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

FWIW you could bypass most of that panel, as surely you will only be charging from 240v.  

I had thought of that thanks… 

[Zelandeth]

3 hours ago, brummiejon said:

I had thought of that thanks… 

Thought I'd commented a while ago on this one but apparently not...

Whereabouts are you based?  If the username is anything to go by not a million miles from here.  I've been meddling with electronics from this sort of era since I was old enough to hold a soldering iron and multimeter (probably earlier if I'm honest...), so I don't imagine it would take long at all to reverse engineer that charger.  As has been said, a huge amount of that spaghetti I reckon is entirely to do with voltage selection and at least for testing purposes should be relatively easy to bypass for testing, though obviously we'd rather see it fully functional longer term.

If it were mine I'd probably not even give that selenium rectifier the benefit of the doubt.  They're a ticking time bomb, and the stench of one letting go is truly horrific - and I'm sure not entirely healthy to be breathing!  I had one in a battery charger let go unnoticed one day while I was outside and it took me *months* to get rid of the smell.  They also do a pretty good impression of a space heater even when working properly.

[brummiejon]

9 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

Thought I'd commented a while ago on this one but apparently not...

Whereabouts are you based?  If the username is anything to go by not a million miles from here.  I've been meddling with electronics from this sort of era since I was old enough to hold a soldering iron and multimeter (probably earlier if I'm honest...), so I don't imagine it would take long at all to reverse engineer that charger.  As has been said, a huge amount of that spaghetti I reckon is entirely to do with voltage selection and at least for testing purposes should be relatively easy to bypass for testing, though obviously we'd rather see it fully functional longer term.

If it were mine I'd probably not even give that selenium rectifier the benefit of the doubt.  They're a ticking time bomb, and the stench of one letting go is truly horrific - and I'm sure not entirely healthy to be breathing!  I had one in a battery charger let go unnoticed one day while I was outside and it took me *months* to get rid of the smell.  They also do a pretty good impression of a space heater even when working properly.

Hiya…. thanks for your kind offer, I live in Whitstable, Kent but would be prepared to arrange to bring it to you..

[adw1977]

In the unlikely event that you haven't already seen it, this popped up on the Facebook group British Saloons from the Thirties to the Eighties.

[LightBulbFun]

On 31/03/2023 at 09:45, adw1977 said:

In the unlikely event that you haven't already seen it, this popped up on the Facebook group British Saloons from the Thirties to the Eighties.

indeed seen it before, still a good photo always https://flic.kr/p/9diKJh  its a Stanley Mk7, only one of this type is known to still survive (I never was able to find that Bow(?) police station photograph sadly) 

 

On 25/03/2020 at 23:14, LightBulbFun said:

On 25/03/2020 at 19:52, Vantman said:

I bought a VW Beetle-897 TDV- from Square Hill Motors in the early 1960s.

 

(think this is my first time being able play invalid vehicle snap with a Stanley Mk7!)

ya know the more I look at the photo, the more I wonder if that Mk7 had been abandoned there? looks distinctively run down and scruffy with a broken tail light, ill fitting engine cover, and some (litirial?) crap or damage on the other wing

there is a similar shot of a Stanley Mk7 or Harper Mk6 parked by a London police station (Bow comes to mind?) I must find again at some point and see if theres a registration for me to use as a jumping off point in hopes of finding a harper that still shows up on the DVLA