invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, plasticvandan said:

I grew up in Worcester,not that far from Kidderminster,personally I would take the train,not because the car wouldn't make it,but it would be a very exhausting trip,and three hours on motorways as an inexperienced driver in a lets be honest vehicle not designed for motorway work may not be the best idea.

sadly putting aside my general problems with public transport and all that, I know ill have a few lightbulbs and streetlights to take home, a bit bulky/awkward to take on the train even for an abled body person I imagine, obviously I will not be attempting it if by the due date I am still not confident in things, but yeah ill certainly be trying to do lots of driving if for nothing else to try and gain confidence in myself and the car before that date if I can!  

 

[egg]

Probably best to hire an EV for a day and travel in air conditioned silence! 

Aren't you soon hitting the magic 25 which seems to make it cheaper?

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, egg said:

Probably best to hire an EV for a day and travel in air conditioned silence! 

that would make things 100 times worse, because then I get super anxious that what im driving is not mine and its very expensive if I break it etc and the whole not being very familiar with it (I think the only time I ever truly relaxed driving someone else's car was @Six-cylinder's 2CV, make of that what you will!)

I have found for me personally, theres a lot to be said to being in something your intimately familiar and comfortable with, when I did first take REV out the chippy, I was quite nervous before hand, that was my first time solo on the public highway, but I realise I was nervous for nothing once I actually started the trip,  in a very cliche manner it all melted away

it all felt natural to me, even things like the indicator stalk falling off at a 4 way junction I had to cross, was no bother for me,  then when a transit van that overtook me and cut me up just before a set of traffic lights , and having to stop in live traffic to wait for a gap to cross over to the chippy's parking space, where no problems for me in REV, it did not make me nervous or uneasy, in the same way they would do in someone else's car 

obviously driving to the chippy and back is one thing and driving 3 hours down a motorway is another thing, hence why I am still unsure about the whole prospect, but its all the more why I am really looking forward to getting REV back and being able to properly drive her places, see what its all like under all the different conditions out there  

1 hour ago, egg said:

Aren't you soon hitting the magic 25 which seems to make it cheaper?

not far off, thats when I plan to start badgering insurance companies again about decommissioned taxi insurance  (last time i looked into it there where a few specialist brokers that I was unable to try because they only covered from 25 n up)

 

[Six-cylinder]

It is a long time ago but being a newish driver, driving an unfamiliar car on an unfamiliar route is very tiring. With experience and practice automatic processing takes place, then we are doing tasks without putting conscious awareness or intention into them. As you become experienced parts of driving does not need much cognitive effort and are relatively easy to perform.

I also feel after a classic car has had an amount of work it needs a settling in. A number of shorter shake down drives so if it all goes wrong you can limp it home or are not too far from home for a taxi, while a truck collects the car.  

[loserone]

Driving any old car is a lot harder work than most modern cars.  

[Noel Tidybeard]

consider A roads instead of motorways- more places to stop easily, cruising at a speed more inline with what the whistle is happier with

[egg]

4 hours ago, Six-cylinder said:

With experience and practice automatic processing takes place, then we are doing tasks without putting conscious awareness or intention into them

Agree, I think you know you are a 'driver' the first time you've arrived somewhere and you don't remember how you got there!

[High Jetter]

4 minutes ago, egg said:

Agree, I think you know you are a 'driver' the first time you've arrived somewhere and you don't remember how you got there!

Nah, that's old age 🤣

[beko1987]

16 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

that would make things 100 times worse, because then I get super anxious that what im driving is not mine and its very expensive if I break it etc and the whole not being very familiar with it (I think the only time I ever truly relaxed driving someone else's car was @Six-cylinder's 2CV, make of that what you will!)

I have found for me personally, theres a lot to be said to being in something your intimately familiar and comfortable with, when I did first take REV out the chippy, I was quite nervous before hand, that was my first time solo on the public highway, but I realise I was nervous for nothing once I actually started the trip,  in a very cliche manner it all melted away

it all felt natural to me, even things like the indicator stalk falling off at a 4 way junction I had to cross, was no bother for me,  then when a transit van that overtook me and cut me up just before a set of traffic lights , and having to stop in live traffic to wait for a gap to cross over to the chippy's parking space, where no problems for me in REV, it did not make me nervous or uneasy, in the same way they would do in someone else's car 

obviously driving to the chippy and back is one thing and driving 3 hours down a motorway is another thing, hence why I am still unsure about the whole prospect, but its all the more why I am really looking forward to getting REV back and being able to properly drive her places, see what its all like under all the different conditions out there  

not far off, thats when I plan to start badgering insurance companies again about decommissioned taxi insurance  (last time i looked into it there where a few specialist brokers that I was unable to try because they only covered from 25 n up)

 

If you hire a car you can take out liability insurance and cause as much damage as you like! 

For £150 I can write off my dad's motability car should I choose 👌

[barefoot]

1 hour ago, beko1987 said:

If you hire a car you can take out liability insurance and cause as much damage as you like! 

And of course they handle better,  and are much, much faster than privately owned examples. 

[Remspoor]

20 hours ago, loserone said:

Driving any old car is a lot harder work than most modern cars.  

Modern cars with the lane assist, beeping when this or that is too near. Mirrors that blink at you when someone overtakes you all the other gismos they add for aiding you on the road.  Just gets on my breast.

[adw1977]

I think there was a peak for ease of driving which occurred somewhere around 2000, when power steering, ABS, A/C, electric windows and remote central locking became generally standard but before embuggerations like automatic lights, lane departure warnings and electronic handbrakes arrived.

[Jazoli]

55 minutes ago, adw1977 said:

I think there was a peak for ease of driving which occurred somewhere around 2000, when power steering, ABS, A/C, electric windows and remote central locking became generally standard but before embuggerations like automatic lights, lane departure warnings and electronic handbrakes arrived.

Cars have never been easier to drive, my wife’s Captur could be driven by someone who’d never seen a car in about 30 mins, everything is done for you and it’s no worse for it.

[LightBulbFun]

Today was a day of Routemasters for me as it was RM70 weekend, that is 70th Anniversary of the Routemaster/RM1 the first prototype being built, you know when the Routemaster was first unvailed etc the adverts announced "Routemaster London's bus of the future" and you know they where not kidding, 70 years later in future they very much are still about!, there is still even a Route in London operating them Tourist Route 15  

 

 

I did not actually end up taking too many pictures, as I was too busy chatting with @Yoss who very kindly met me at the overground station and gave me a familiar face to stick with, but here are a few  

I never actually realised the panel above the number plate in an RM is hinged, I wonder whats hiding under it?  

both are bright red and made by AEC, but they aint Routemasters!

 

one of my personal favourites, I used to hunt for RML2760 back in the days of the 15  I never did get a chance to ride it back to the garage sadly like I did the others however, its one of very few RML's that remained un-refurbished in the early 1990's retaining its original AEC engine driveline and incandescent lighting, its also the very last RM built

CRL4 Coach Routemaster Leyland 4, this was Routemaster Prototype 4 built to coach specfications, and a leyland engine driveline with bodywork by ECW, one thing I need to check is did it really have green trafficator ears in period? I know RM1 and RM2 uniqiely had cream coloured ones matching the cant rail, but I really cant recall if CRL4 did?  

a blown headlamp bulb on RT604

and a plate on the leaf spring gubbins that caught my eye  

(3RT3 is the type code, not sure what the rest means!)

and then finally RF600 on my way back to the station  

 

 

but what was most interesting for me today was the lightbulbs (to the surprise of no one I imagine )  in that @Yoss very kindly introduced me to Lord Barrington a friend of his and generally very well known Routemaster person who I was most pleased to be introduced to

now a Normal standard RM or RML has lighting its saloon a row of incandescent lamps either side on each deck like so, as seen in RM2097 

 

but what I have always found most fascinating about thse bulbs, is that As far as I can tell they are bespoke to London Transport, and I have longed to try and find out just what their story is how they came to be and who made them for London Transport, as in all my years of lightbulb sleuthing I have never been able to find mention of them *anywhere* no catalog no nothing! and as both a Routemaster and lightbulb enthusiast this was like the ultimate tease!

you look at a period catalog for bus bulbs and what you will find are either 12W or 20W bulbs in 38mm or 50mm bulb sizes, here is such a 1960's example I have made by Cryselco (that rather amusingly *is* curiously LTE London Transport Executive marked) this is what you find in period catalogs etc if you go to the bulbs for buses section

 

but what London Transport used on RM's where 50mm 22W 24V and they also had a different style of bayonet base, note how the 20W bulb has a very shallow skirt to it, while the London Transport 22W bulbs have a more regular style bayonet base

for a long time this is what I knew, here is an example that @Yoss very kindly gave me from his own RM2037 a few years ago, as you can see the etch all it says is "24V 22W LT Made in England" and its slightly curved, thats all it says no makers info or any legible date code 

now as above this exact etch style is all I knew, until last year when I was fourtinate to get a ride on RM1 herself, that I noticed some of her saloon bulbs had an actual etch on them, this was the first time I had seen such bulbs with an actual etch and most interestingly an actual brand/make/mark of some kind!, sadly however I could just not quite make out what it said in the middle

but it most curiously it  did not look like any brand/make/manufacturer mark that I knew of which it made it all the more curious, until fast forward to today and im talking to Lord Barrington about the matter and he mentioned "oh yeah they are made by Alite for London Transport" where upon he digs around and produces this for me to study, and this example is very curious because its said to be from the *1990s* so a much later example then what is seen on RM1 above (note has it says Gas Filled, on a British lightbulb thats how you know its *old* like pre 1960's old)

so this told me that this mysterious Alite brand hung around, and of course it finally told me what the bulb etch said the logo clearly matches, but in true research fashion, this just creates more questions! first of all who are Alite Associated lighting, I have certainly not been able to find anything on them

but most tellingly I notice the box says "Member of the Ring Group" now I know who those are, and they never had their own lightbulb factory, all the lightbulbs they "produced" where re-badged sourced in products, and sometimes they did not even bother re-badging the lamp itself for example I have in my collection this ring boxed H3 Halogen bulb that is actually an example made by Tesla Czechoslovakia's state run lamp manufacture 

where I am going with this is that, it sadly means I still dont know who actually made these mysterious London Transport 22W 24V bulbs and of course I still dont know what their story is, why 22W 24V why different from the normal 20W 24V bus bulb? 

was London Transport perhaps targeting a longer bulb life but trying to keep the same lumens as the 20W bulb, so increased the wattage to compensate? (to make a longer lasting incandescent lamp it has to be inherently less efficent, so if you want to maintain the same lumen level you have to incase the total wattage to compensate, this also happens as you go up in lamp voltage a 12V lamp is more efficient then a 24V lamp, this is why 24V H4 bulbs are 70W/75W vs 50/55W for 12V ones) 

I do know who makes them currently, or certainly was making them a few years back CEAG under their Lumax brand, but again no idea who came before them 

https://ceag.co.uk/lumax-commercial-incandescent-halogen-and-led-light-bulbs/

but it is still most interesting to see the later 1990's example and finally get an answer as to what the etch on RM1's bulb was saying, it gives me something to try and chase up at least  

[Dick Cheeseburger]

'Lord Barrington' has appeared in some of the 'Pete and his bus' episodes. I get the impression that if there's something he doesn't know about Routemasters, it's not worth knowing! 

[Yoss]

Hi Dez, nice to meet up again. I just realised you asked about the flap above the number plate and I didn't answer as I think I got distracted by something else. The flap opens to give access to the number plate bulb which is the same as the side/tail lamps. They look like a small version of the saloon bulbs but please don't ask me the voltage/wattage!

I took this because I liked the patina of the number plate. I hand painted this about eight years ago and you can plainly see the previous editions underneath. 

[Yoss]

20 minutes ago, Dick Longbridge said:

'Lord Barrington' has appeared in some of the 'Pete and his bus' episodes. I get the impression that if there's something he doesn't know about Routemasters, it's not worth knowing! 

And now I've introduced him to Dez, Tim knows a lot more about Invacars than he did this morning! 

And in one of those small world moments Graham Rixon who was on the bus making cups of tea at the time piped up and said his dad worked for AC Cars in Thames Ditton. His father Geoff was a very well known figure in Routemaster circles and owner of RM 254 which has now passed to Graham. 

[reb]

How much could a small dog know about buses?

[LightBulbFun]

1 minute ago, Yoss said:

And now I've introduced him to Dez, Tim knows a lot more about Invacars than he did this morning! 

And in one of those small world moments Graham Rixon who was on the bus making cups of tea at the time piped up and said his dad worked for AC Cars in Thames Ditton. His father Geoff was a very well known figure in Routemaster circles and owner of RM 254 which has now passed to Graham. 

Oh I never realised it was *him* Routemaster Retrospective and Routemaster Requiem where the first Routemaster books I got when I was about 6 or so! so I have much deep admiration for him and his father! (and of course RM254 is one of the shiniest Routemasters out there) 

I do wish I had managed to get a handle on myself and actually ask Tim and Co about all the Routemaster/RT questions I have LOL (tho. I did ask about the lighting on RTC1, still no one knows ) hopefully this wont be the last time I run into them!  

[Mrs6C]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

who are Alite Associated lighting

Here's a starting point...
https://happyvalley.org.uk/?page_id=4024
https://happyvalley.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/radions_story.pdf

[richardmorris]

3 hours ago, adw1977 said:

I think there was a peak for ease of driving which occurred somewhere around 2000, when power steering, ABS, A/C, electric windows and remote central locking became generally standard but before embuggerations like automatic lights, lane departure warnings and electronic handbrakes arrived.

I like plenty of modern conveniences* but electronic handbrakes can F off.

[egg]

LBF's passions remain undimmed (did you see what I did there...)

Love to see it.

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, Mrs6C said:

Here's a starting point...
https://happyvalley.org.uk/?page_id=4024
https://happyvalley.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/radions_story.pdf

thats genuinely quite fascinating! that would imply they where actually made by themselves in their own factory, I wonder how long production continued for, and I have to wonder why its so unknown today? tho it is worth noting that Automotive lamps and their history are of lesser interest amoungst the wider comunity so maybe it slipped under the radar, although there is mention they did make normal household bulbs before the war, but again I have never seen any of those, but it is to be said there are quite a few prewar lightbulbs out there that we still dont know what the history of them are! 

Im going to be doing an upload on the lighting forum I part take it in and ill be sure to link those into my post/upload it will be most interesting to see whats said about, I am especially curious to get input from my good friend James who is much more learned them I am about all things lightbulbs (he has been collecting for far longer then I have been alive and he actually has worked a lightbulb manufacturer/designer at serval lighting companies! he runs the excellent lamptech.co.uk website  )

and of course there is still the question of why 22W 24V  

 

this part in your linked PDF is most interesting in its own right

Quote

The SCEANDO company‟s lamp making
foundered in late 1923 resulting from patent
litigation by a ring of monopolistically minded
lamp making giants which stopped essential
supplies of drawn tungsten wire used for the
making of lamp filaments. Up to that time
SCEANDO had found itself a ready market
supplying Woolworths under contract. Had this
been the start of the Woolworth „Sunshine‟ brand?

because from my good friend James I have this history snippet, from just after that time period so its really interesting to hear what came before Splendor  

Quote

Splendor is in fact a Dutch brand. Their factory was at Nijmegen, and from an early stage Philips took a major shareholding. The British Splendor has an interesting history.

In the 1930s there was already a powerful international lamp cartel known as Phoebus, which was run by IGE of America. Their sole purpose was to protect and grow their virtual monopoly over the global lamp industry. At that time the cartel was being threatened by cheap imported lamps from Japan. Although the national lampmakers Toshiba and National were already in the cartel, it had not yet achieved full domination in Japan and there were a number of independent and very cost-competitive small lamp factories. In the 1930s the British Woolworth's company started importing its lamps from Japan, and since Woolworths was at the time and right up to the 1980s the largest distributor of lamps in Britain, the Phoebus companies were devastated by the loss of that customer. Moreover Woolworths was becoming so effective with its Japanese imports that it threatened the destruction of the UK lampmakers. Phoebus had to react quickly to try and crush that supply chain and regain Woolworths as a customer.

At certain critical moments in its history, the Hydra Sub-Committee of the Phoebus companies was authorised to set up a new so-called fighting company, which from the outside was supposed to appear fully independent but in fact was a strategic arm of the cartel. The Hydra factories were owned and managed by the Phoebus members, and were given unique powers to sell their lamps at very low costs, even at a loss. British Splendor was set up precisely for this reason. It was equipped with the best lampmaking machinery made by Philips Eindhoven to achieve lowest production costs, and its purpose was to quote those for supply to Woolworths at lower prices than the Japanese could match. Its initial production capacity in 1935 was set 4 million lamps per year. The Splendor name was chosen because it was at the time completely unknown in Britain, and customers would be more likely to believe that it was independent. However it was in fact owned by the Hydra Committee of a handful of European Phoebus members (mainly Philips). Since Philips did not have its own UK lampmaking at the time, technical management of the factory was assigned jointly to the British ELMA companies (Philips, GEC, BTH, Cryselco, Siemens). The objective was that Splendor UK would supply lamps to Woolworths at a loss until the former Japanese suppliers of Woolworths would collapse, and become so financially weakened that the Phoebus leaders from Geneva could then swoop in and acquire control of the independent Japanese factories so as to save them from destruction - but of course to tie them into the cartel structure and eliminate a dangerous competitor.

As it happened, the Splendor UK factory was a failure. There was another small independent UK lampmaker, Brittannia of Preston, and they won the Woolworths business. Philips then sold the failed Splendor factory to the ELMA members. They kept it open as one of the ELMA Controlled Companies, with the purpose of maintaining high selling prices for the ELMA companies. It enabled them to continue offering high prices to their customers, and if any customer became so disgruntled that they refused to pay the high prices, the ELMA company would arrange that Splendor would offer a lower quote and win the business. It was better for the ELMA companies to still win the business at lower margins via Splendor than for the business to go to any other independent companies. This situation was deemed to be highly illegal after the changes in trading laws in the years after WW2. When that arrangement was discovered by the UK Government, it required the ELMA companies to clean up their act and to cease their use of the Controlled Companies like Splendor. I am not sure precisely when that happened, but by 1969 the ELMA companies had closed the Splendor factory in UK.

its also quite interesting one of the lamps I have in my collection is this curious little thing, its etch is sadly long gone, but I understand it to be a mid to late 1940's lamp sold by woolworths on the cheap under their Sunshine brand made possible by the large surplus of Thermionic valve envelopes left over after the end of WW2 of which this lamp clearly uses, but I have never been able to find out who actually made these for Woolworths! I dont think it was the Sceando company given they went bust long before WW2 but it is very interesting to get that bit of an insight and the fact that this lamp is Valve shaped rather fittingly   

 

I do also have a Brittannia lamp in my collection ,one that I suspect is quite old based on the fact its outside frosted rather then inside frosted and the "etch" is quite litreally that, its made up by masking the glass so those parts did not get frosted 

this is a practice I have only really seen in lamps from before the war, Britannia itself has an interesting history, which again is provided here by James   

Quote

Ismay was a strange little company. It was founded in 1927 as John Ismay & Sons to make gas mantles. In 1931 the company began making electric lamps, and in 1936 took over another small lampmaker, Britannia Electric Lamp Works of Park Royal in London. By 1938 it became the largest independent UK lampmaker, and was especially troublesome to the members of the Lamp Ring Cartel because Ismay was becoming very successful at selling lamps at below ring-prices. In that year only the lampmaking activities of Ismay at Ilford and Britannia at Park Royal were therefore jointly taken over by all members of the UK Lamp Cartel, except Stella, BELL and Aurora. Ismay was not closed down, but was kept running by the cartel members as one of their "Controlled Companies", to give the impression of it still being an independent company. Every time one of the big companies like GEC, AEI or Philips failed to win a contract for their own lamps due to the prices being too high, rather than give in and drop their selling prices to keep the business, they would then arrange for Ismay, Splendor or one of their other Controlled Companies to sweep in and win the contract for a lower price. Unknown to the customers, the profits still ended up being divided among the major lampmakers who owned a majority shareholding in Ismay, and the major lampmakers could continue their favourable situation of maintaining a virtual monopoly over the UK lamp industry.

This situation created quite some friction between the ELMA members and the original owners of Ismay who continued to hold a minority interest, and wanted to grow their business into the higher margin markets. The feuding reached a conclusion in 1966 when the ELMA companies made a hostile takeover and increased their shareholding to 100% and eliminated the original owners. The following year there was a brief expansion, when ELMA closed the Britannia lampworks and concentrated all independent production within Ismay's Ilford factory.

The expansion was short-lived though. By 1969 the ELMA companies had improved their own production machinery such that their high speed automated production could undercut the costs of the Controlled Companies. The latter no longer served any purpose, and Ismay was closed down along with all of the other ELMA controlled companies. They continued to operate their monopoly though - maintaining brand names and fictional sales divisions such as Stella, Splendor, Corona, Aurora etc to sell cheap lamps to certain troublesome customers who still did not agree to pay the ring prices, and risked instead sourcing cheap lamps from Japan and the far east.
 

and this is where I must tag in @beko1987 because a few FoD's ago he kindly gave me a box of Pgmy bulbs he had removed over time from various hoovers he had through his hands, and in there I know is it at least 1 Ismay lamp, that I am pretty sure is a post-cartel takeover lamp, but I am still most thankful to have for the interesting history that is behind that brand/company  

[dollywobbler]

Great to see REV running so sweetly!

Had TWC out today for the first time since New Year's Day. Shocking. Also gave her an oil change and some TLC for the first time in 1000 miles. Which took 3 years...

Even gave her a wash. Off to a show on Sunday locally.

[LightBulbFun]

31 minutes ago, dollywobbler said:

Great to see REV running so sweetly!

Had TWC out today for the first time since New Year's Day. Shocking. Also gave her an oil change and some TLC for the first time in 1000 miles. Which took 3 years...

Even gave her a wash. Off to a show on Sunday locally.

its awesome to see TWC coming out into the sunlight after many months! I always like the colour contrast between TWC and Elly! they work very well as a pair in that regard

I hope this is the start of some more regular trips out for her? any plans to chuck Miss Hubnut, or the Hublets into TWC?  It should not cost too much to get Miss hubnut insured on TWC if my own experience is anything to go by!

[dollywobbler]

We'll see. Have had a few insurance headaches due to her lack of experience but I'm sure we can sort something out.

[LightBulbFun]

5 minutes ago, dollywobbler said:

We'll see. Have had a few insurance headaches due to her lack of experience but I'm sure we can sort something out.

I have had REV insured since the day I passed my driving test pretty much! ironically for all that said REV would be uninsurable for someone in my specific situation, she seems the be the *only* vehicle I have been  able to get reasonable insurance on LOL

BikeSure are who I am with if you want to see if they will quote Miss Hubnut or not  Markerstudy are the underwriters on their "MS Emblem Trike Scheme EDI" (no idea what the last 3 letters mean!)

[UltraWomble]

Those Routemaster bulbs look very similar to ones used on the old Blackpool trams. 

They were an odd voltage / wattage if I remember

[barefoot]

36 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

"MS Emblem Trike Scheme EDI" (no idea what the last 3 letters mean!)

I have it on good authority that the middle letter stands for Dez, but I'm going to have to throw the other two out to the fair people of this parish. 

[egg]

'exclusive dez insurance'

apparently it means?

'Electronic Data Interchange (EDI)'