Cars you didn't know existed until very recently.

[artdjones]

18 hours ago, quicksilver said:

In a similar vein, the Kenworth K130. No idea how Kenworth ended up using a VW cab.

It was developed from a MAN model. MAN collaborated with VW and VWs part of the collaboration included the LT cab.

 

[EyesWeldedShut]

On 7/3/2023 at 9:37 PM, barrett said:

My friend just sent me this, a plan of all the exhibitors form the '22 Salon. To be honest, it doesn't help me much as the specification doesn't seem to match cars from any of these manufacturers (that I'm aware of)...

Best I could find was the image below - it's got the wooden post in it (and that's about all).
there are some lovely pictures  of the salon at http://www.corre-lalicorne.com/salon de automobile.html (scroll down past the broken plugin) and the site, albeit a bit fragmented, holds some gems. 

[quicksilver]

5 hours ago, artdjones said:

It was developed from a MAN model. MAN collaborated with VW and VWs part of the collaboration included the LT cab.

 

I know about the MAN-VW G90 that used the LT cab but wasn't aware there was any connection with Kenworth. WIkipedia confirms it was a development of the G90 and initially built in Brazil like so many other odd things. Its successors used the DAF 45/LF cab, which makes sense as both are part of Paccar, so they look strangely familiar yet unfamiliar to British eyes.

[quicksilver]

Didn't have a clue what this was when it drove past.

It's an Armstrong-Siddeley Sapphire 234 converted into a drophead, supposedly as a replica of a factory prototype. I don't think I've ever even seen one of the saloons it's based on.

[somewhatfoolish]

TBH the saloon isn't a great looker from behind, I can understand why someone with the money to pay for a conversion or the ability to DIY might do so.

[artdjones]

1 hour ago, somewhatfoolish said:

TBH the saloon isn't a great looker from behind, I can understand why someone with the money to pay for a conversion or the ability to DIY might do so.

A 236 with steel wheels is a bit of a strange car. It has the straight 6 from the previous range, and isn't very fast. 

The 234 uses a 4cylinder version of the powerful 3½ litre Sapphire engine, and is more powerful than the six, making a decent sports saloon. It still has the weird rear aspect, but wire wheels and a decent colour lighten the appearance.

[Remspoor]

Ther have been severla posts about the Spanish Brand Santana.

Living in Spain for way too long I have never seen or heard about a Santana Stella. A vehicle without permission (that is a lie as you do need a drivers licence to use one)

Not even wiki writes about the car. An image. I give the link to the Spanish version as it covers more https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santana_Motor

 

So details of production numbers is impossible to find. All I can find is a number that are for sale.

https://es.wallapop.com/item/santana-stella-2000-828915544

https://es.wallapop.com/item/coche-santana-stella-111538425

[quicksilver]

3 hours ago, artdjones said:

A 236 with steel wheels is a bit of a strange car. It has the straight 6 from the previous range, and isn't very fast. 

The 234 uses a 4cylinder version of the powerful 3½ litre Sapphire engine, and is more powerful than the six, making a decent sports saloon. It still has the weird rear aspect, but wire wheels and a decent colour lighten the appearance.

The 234/236 are a weird combination. Two different engines of almost the same capacity, of which the four-cylinder was more powerful, faster, cheaper and more economical than the six.

[artdjones]

7 minutes ago, quicksilver said:

The 234/236 are a weird combination. Two different engines of almost the same capacity, of which the four-cylinder was more powerful, faster, cheaper and more economical than the six.

It's one of the few models where some of them were stodge and others very much not.

[somewhatfoolish]

8 hours ago, Remspoor said:

Ther have been severla posts about the Spanish Brand Santana.

Living in Spain for way too long I have never seen or heard about a Santana Stella. A vehicle without permission (that is a lie as you do need a drivers licence to use one)

Not even wiki writes about the car. An image. I give the link to the Spanish version as it covers more https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santana_Motor

 

So details of production numbers is impossible to find. All I can find is a number that are for sale.

https://es.wallapop.com/item/santana-stella-2000-828915544

https://es.wallapop.com/item/coche-santana-stella-111538425

Interesting; a meander through image search suggests there's a link with serial shite makers Aixam, although exactly what the relationship was is beyond my language skills.

[Sham]

22 minutes ago, somewhatfoolish said:

Interesting; a meander through image search suggests there's a link with serial shite makers Aixam, although exactly what the relationship was is beyond my language skills.

At a guess, I'd say pointing and laughing at the people buying them.

[lesapandre]

14 hours ago, artdjones said:

A 236 with steel wheels is a bit of a strange car. It has the straight 6 from the previous range, and isn't very fast. 

The 234 uses a 4cylinder version of the powerful 3½ litre Sapphire engine, and is more powerful than the six, making a decent sports saloon. It still has the weird rear aspect, but wire wheels and a decent colour lighten the appearance.

Could not compete with Rover or Jaguar - or upmarket Ford and Vauxhall with the Zephyr and Velox. MG had the ZA Magnette as well. Just too expensive to find many buyers in that sector.

I'd read the styling was so poor at the rear because the car was modified at a late stage in its design to provide 'more headroom'. 

[somewhatfoolish]

Shame really as the 234 was faster than the Jag 2.4 and was reputed to handle better; less fugly styling may have enabled ASM to keep going a few more years.

[artdjones]

8 minutes ago, somewhatfoolish said:

Shame really as the 234 was faster than the Jag 2.4 and was reputed to handle better; less fugly styling may have enabled ASM to keep going a few more years.

Tbf, I think they just decided to invest their money in aero engines, although I suppose if the cars were big sellers they would have kept on. The big cars were impressive and quite a status symbol. Len Hutton, the England cricket captain had one.

[lesapandre]

Yes the big cars definitely had their niche in the marketplace. Worth a go if you see one - great quality. Manufactured in Coventry - car  factory now demolished like so many.

AS also designed the engine in the Humber Super Snipe for Rootes.

I think it was more they decided to pursue their aircraft interests more profitably by 1960.

Alvis dropped out of the car business a bit later. And Rolls Royce cars was spun off into a separate company some time later too.

British Aerospace had a dalliance with Rover - that didn't last long either.

[lesapandre]

48 minutes ago, somewhatfoolish said:

Shame really as the 234 was faster than the Jag 2.4 and was reputed to handle better; less fugly styling may have enabled ASM to keep going a few more years.

As often with 50's cars the styling in the brochure was better than the reality.

[Remspoor]

8 hours ago, somewhatfoolish said:

Interesting; a meander through image search suggests there's a link with serial shite makers Aixam, although exactly what the relationship was is beyond my language skills.

No language skills really needed you can use an online translator.  There is nothing about whose small car* they made.

 

 

[somewhatfoolish]

 I tried that but it's not subtle. Identical vehicles captioned as Aixam Stella or similar showed up a lot. Perhaps someone will write a treatise on sans permis and tell us all about it.

[barrett]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say not only is the 234/6 a really good-looking car, but it's the only attractive car A-S ever built and the only one which is even vaguely interesting, with the aircraft-grade alloy construction and attempt to break into the sports saloon market. People often compare it to the Mk1 Jag, but that really wasn't the target audience at all. Jaguars were considered cheap, crass nouveau riche cad's cars and Real People wouldn't have been seen dead in one at the time. The respectable old-money high-quality sporting saloon rivals would've been Riley RM and the lower end and Lagonda at the higher end. After decades of making deathly boring old sluggers, there was nobody alive who would've considered an Armstrong-Siddeley as a sporting, enjoyable car for the owner/driver and the market was - well, what did they build, 1500 in total of both types? Yeah, the market was probably 1500 people in the world, which I guess just makes it even more interesting today. I think there's something silly like 20 survivors. A 234 is definitely high on my list of cars I need to try before I die.

[martc]

1967 4-Door Porsche 911 by Troutman-Barnes. This car was commissioned by the Texan Dr. William Dick, co-owner of a Texas-based Porsche distributor, and was coach built by Troutman-Barnes of Culver City, California. The wheelbase of the original 911 was extended and a second set of suicide doors were installed. The project had cost slightly more than a new 4-door Rolls-Royce, but it must have been worth every penny to the owner. It's now lost, presumed scrapped.

[martc]

The Katomobil amphibious concept car, USSR, early 1970's. As you can see the sides fold out to form a catamaran, it had a ZAZ engine mounted at the rear (I would guess there's even more ZAZ bits involved).

[Metal Guru]

2 hours ago, martc said:

1967 4-Door Porsche 911 by Troutman-Barnes. This car was commissioned by the Texan Dr. William Dick, co-owner of a Texas-based Porsche distributor, and was coach built by Troutman-Barnes of Culver City, California. The wheelbase of the original 911 was extended and a second set of suicide doors were installed. The project had cost slightly more than a new 4-door Rolls-Royce, but it must have been worth every penny to the owner. It's now lost, presumed scrapped.

The black and white photos look like it was commissioned by an undertaker.

[somewhatfoolish]

On 7/7/2023 at 3:52 PM, barrett said:

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say not only is the 234/6 a really good-looking car, but it's the only attractive car A-S ever built and the only one which is even vaguely interesting, with the aircraft-grade alloy construction and attempt to break into the sports saloon market. People often compare it to the Mk1 Jag, but that really wasn't the target audience at all. Jaguars were considered cheap, crass nouveau riche cad's cars and Real People wouldn't have been seen dead in one at the time. The respectable old-money high-quality sporting saloon rivals would've been Riley RM and the lower end and Lagonda at the higher end. After decades of making deathly boring old sluggers, there was nobody alive who would've considered an Armstrong-Siddeley as a sporting, enjoyable car for the owner/driver and the market was - well, what did they build, 1500 in total of both types? Yeah, the market was probably 1500 people in the world, which I guess just makes it even more interesting today. I think there's something silly like 20 survivors. A 234 is definitely high on my list of cars I need to try before I die.

In the context of its sector the 346 was pretty sporty, hemi-head with the option of twin carbs, servo brakes and other accoutrements usually associated with exotica. The styling was well executed but conservative stodge, as anything more adventurous would have seen their customer base go and order an Alvis instead. Too many superannuated carriage works chasing a non-growth market sector.

Perhaps consider a badge-engineered Sunbeam 90/roadster with the 234/6 engines, it would have cost a fraction of the 234/6 to make, Billy Rootes would have lapped up the idea and it would have appealed to far more buyers. 

[quicksilver]

5 hours ago, martc said:

1967 4-Door Porsche 911 by Troutman-Barnes. This car was commissioned by the Texan Dr. William Dick, co-owner of a Texas-based Porsche distributor, and was coach built by Troutman-Barnes of Culver City, California. The wheelbase of the original 911 was extended and a second set of suicide doors were installed. The project had cost slightly more than a new 4-door Rolls-Royce, but it must have been worth every penny to the owner. It's now lost, presumed scrapped.

So that's where Porsche got the idea for the Panamera!

[Sham]

Move the pendulum even further away from the steered wheels... That'll help the handling.

[MiniMinorMk3]

Porsche 928-4

In 1986 Porsche with AMG made a couple of long-wheelbase 928 cars. This led to the 1987 Porsche 928-4, which had rear suicide doors that opened like the ones on a Mazda RX-8.

[barrett]

Well, if anyone cares, a friend of mine has solved the mystery. It's a Desmoulins (of course) which featured two side-by-side engines of different size, theoretically gving the performance of three cars - a small engine for town use, a larger engine for touring and a combination, extra-large engine for high-speed work.

Annoyingly I actually have a few Desmoulins brochures so I probably should have recognised it. The earliest version seemed to have two small single-cylinder enignes working a single gearbox/prop and normal back axle (how?) but later cars had a very complicated all-in-one transaxle thing which, again, I don't quite understand how it worked. But I suppose it probably didn't, or at least not very well. It's not thought any were actually sold and that 1922 chassis is probably as far as the project went.

[somewhatfoolish]

That's not the stupidest car idea I've read about, but it's in the top ten.

[Spurious]

 

Seen one of these today, couldn't remember ever seeing one before. Mustn't be a massive seller. Looked like a Golf/Focus sized crossover. A Bayon. Whatever that means.

[AnthonyG]

On 7/5/2023 at 9:42 PM, TheOtherStu said:

Today, I saw a Volkswagen Taro. I dunno why, but I've seen other Toyota Hilux rebrands, but don't remember this one.

It was much sheddier than this picture and an H reg, but like this:

Frankly, it was shit. Had loads of dents, loads of rust and a couple of very dodgy looking gents driving it.
A quick look did suggest that it had MOT, Tax and Insurance!

I vaguely remember a few of these getting sold by South Hereford Garages, the early ones ran alongside the Mk1 Golf Caddy but then sort of replaced it (the dealer told me the Yugoslav civil war stopped supply of Caddys, which were built in Slovenia).

Neither model was popular in the local area. There was a successful Toyota dealer who sold quite a few Hiluxes so I assume Taros were more expensive, thus rather pointless where farmers were the main market.

The Caddy was cheaper but struggled to sell - rural tradesmen like carpenters wanting a 2wd pickup bought a Ford P100 (same sort of price range but more load space) and most of the farmers got the 4wd Subaru MV - they were everywhere.