Morris Oxford Mechanicals Question..

[320touring]

Today, we spent some time going over my 1959 Morris Oxford Series 4 traveller. 

I'm keen to get it on the road this summer after it had significant welding by myself and @Tickman a couple of years ago.

A long list of parts has been compiled - key aims being

1. A refresh of the brakes

2. New tyres in 165/80/15 (as close to the original 155r15 as I can get)

3. Suspension overhaul

4. Engine and gearbox work

It's the last of these I want your opinion on!

But first, a little about the car -

1959 "All Steel" Traveller (they only built them for 4 years 56-60 before the Farina cars came out)

Currently has a 1489cc B series, with a single SU carb. Approx. 50bhp new, less than that after at least 91k miles.

Current gearbox is a standard 4 speed unit.

Here it is in all its glory - a right big lump of porridge!

The current drive train starts and runs, and drives ok ( it made it up from Stockport).

However, it is VERY tired. Significant oil smoke under load, a total loss oiling system on the engine, and a propensity to leak profusely from both the gearbox and diff when sitting.

 

To make it reliable and less leaky, I'd like to overhaul the engine and gearbox.

The problem is I have two of each..

First engine:

1500 B series 50bhp, known to be a runner, but tired

Thanks to @blackboilersuit it has some Available bling in the form of a rebuilt carb.

 

Second Engine:

This is a gold (reman?) 1800 B series 90bhp out of an MGB GT. Unknown condition, turns freely (a little too freely?) But I have never heard it run. 

In BGT config, it would have twin SUs (present but need rebuilt).

We opened it up today - obviously been lean in front two cyls (issue with carbs?) Felt very little resistance barring it over, so likely will need a hone and rings (same as the 1500 would get)

 

I suspect the alternator could be made to fit the 1500.

 

First gearbox:

4 speed non overdrive as currently fitted. HIGH RPM at 50/60

Second Gearbox:

4 speed Overdrive (3rd and 4th) from the MGB GT. Likely significantly lower RPM at cruising speed.

 

Working on the basis that:

I want to use it this summer

Overhaul costs for both engines are broadly similar

The Overdrive gearbox will need bulkhead mods to fit

What option would you pick?

1. 1500 B series (50hp) plus standard gearbox

2. 1800 B series (90bhp) plus standard gearbox

3. 1500 B series (50hp) plus Overdrive gearbox

4. 1800 B series (90bhp) plus Overdrive gearbox

 

[Sham]

Personally, I'd go with the known runner of an engine and use the overdrive gearbox.

I'm known to be cautious with decision making, make of that what you will.

[N Dentressangle]

The 1800 B + overdrive would make it a really usable old car, without so much power it would get into trouble.

I would hang onto the 50bhp motor for the sake of originality. The gearbox I'm not so sure - undergearing is what makes a lot of old cars such a chore to drive these days, rather than a lack of power.

[320touring]

15 minutes ago, Sham said:

Personally, I'd go with the known runner of an engine and use the overdrive gearbox.

I'm known to be cautious with decision making, make of that what you will.

That certainly has been on my mind. Don't want to be several hundred into the 1800 to find out it doesn't run properly

2 minutes ago, N Dentressangle said:

The 1800 B + overdrive would make it a really usable old car, without so much power it would get into trouble.

I would hang onto the 50bhp motor for the sake of originality. The gearbox I'm not so sure - undergearing is what makes a lot of old cars such a chore to drive these days, rather than a lack of power.

Also fair comment, as you say the gearing is an issue. I imagine the 1500 if refreshed would be adequate, if not sprightly.

[captain_70s]

The MGB engine with O/D 'box is the obvious winner for longer term use. Beware any mods to the bulkhead as it'll count towards modifying the monocoque, unless it is bolt on, and along with engine/gearbox swap could put you into the IVA test and Q plate territory if you're keeping things entirely legit.

Rebuild the 1800 and see how much life you can drag out of the 1500 with minimum expenditure in the meantime. I'd expect both to need bearings, honing and crank grinding as a matter of course so you'd be as well investing in the better engine. The 1500 could well last a long while on it's deathbed if it isn't knocking it's cunt in, just keep throwing oil in it...

[Matty]

16 minutes ago, N Dentressangle said:

gearbox I'm not so sure - undergearing is what makes a lot of old cars such a chore to drive these days, rather than a lack of power.

What the man says. Car looks absolutely Bob on as is, a bit more poke is always welcome on modern roads and better gearing to keep the revs down at cruising speed has got to be a bonus. With an 1800 B and an overdrive box you'd end up with a car that looks just like it should, a survivor that wears its years well but much more usable day to day. Which means your more likely to use it day to day. And the best bit is its all easy put back to original.

[adw1977]

Is 50hp actually that bad in a car this size?  It's more power than a 1.3 Sierra offered in the 80s and I can't imagine an Oxford being heavier than a Sierra.

[SiC]

2 hours ago, 320touring said:

I'm keen to get it on the road this summer after it had significant welding by myself and @Tickman a couple of years ago.

I said 1800 and o/d box as that will be the most satisfying to have. However in light of the above, I'd also say keep chucking oil in for now and get some use over the summer. Any work is going to take more time than using what's already in it.

Hence possibly not going to get a chance to use it over the summer!

[SiC]

18 minutes ago, adw1977 said:

Is 50hp actually that bad in a car this size?  It's more power than a 1.3 Sierra offered in the 80s and I can't imagine an Oxford being heavier than a Sierra.

I went in it a couple of years ago when I picked up the roffle win XJ6 in Scotland. A distinct memory, apart from trying to not fall into the door that doesn't lock properly and fall out, was going flat out at 40mph and @320touring shouting that it is all it's got! This engine I think is a pretty tired 50 horses. 

[320touring]

Your face was a peach on that run🤣

 

Bet it made you re think the MGB!

[Saabnut]

If you are going the B engine route, you will need to upgrade the brakes to match as they were pretty rubbish as standard and doubling the power..... Also insuring it may be difficult. Just fitting the o/d box should not cause insurance problems as you tell them you have fitted an overdrive which was an option back in the day. They will not know different.

Also, handling was not a strong point of these, and doubling the power may get you into trouble.

[BeEP]

I agree with Saabnut re brakes.  As with most of my opinions I know I'll be in the minority, but I'd...

• run it as is this summer otherwise you'll soon find it's October and the engine(s) still in bits,
• sell the 1800 engine as there will be some demand and funds can go towards...
• re-build the 1500 next winter
• keep the current gearbox if it is known to be good (and sell o/d box)
• investigate diff options.  I don't know anything about these, but did anything use the same diff but with a higher ratio (later A60/Oxford Farinas??)

[artdjones]

https://www.camskill.co.uk/m53b0s477p111220/Vredestein_Tyres_Car_Vredestein_Sprint_Classic_-_155_R15_82S_TL_Fuel_Eff_%3A_XC_Wet_Grip%3A_XC_NoiseClass%3A_XC_Noise%3A_XC

Apparently 155/80/15 are available £81 each.

[ETCHY]

1500 and original gearbox. 

It is what it is, it's old slow but it'll get you there. I'd just enjoy its old world charm. Upgrades are fine and doubtless many will disagree but imo there's something to be said for just owning & enjoying a car as it would have been in period.

[Jikovron]

I reckon 1800 single carb on the original box with a MGB auto 3.7 or MGC 3.3  diff,  I doubt there is enough room in the tunnel for the bulk of the OD , but at least the original gear selector can be reused in place of the Mgb remote also I think your stuck with the convoluted single downpipe so may be looking at more like 75bhp than a possible 95 but with way more useable torque.

Note that 67 onwards there was a bigger flywheel and revised backplate for a preengaged starter but it should fit the early gearbox with a check to ensure the spigot bearing is the right size, however even then 4 synchro boxs are literally pocket change to buy.

Not sure how similar MGB uprights are but could be something to investigate brakes wise although imo generally it's easily possible to drive within the capability of the brakes 

[hairnet]

something from after 1980 on carbs?

cos so much powah wilwood brake kit

 

[DSdriver]

If you are going to use the second engine whip the sump off and check the main bearings. We did that when I bought what was a working DS engine and found that the journals on one crank were spinning and would only have lasted a short while. It saved a lot of time and money.

"Too much power is never enough" as the saying goes

[320touring]

2 hours ago, Saabnut said:

If you are going the B engine route, you will need to upgrade the brakes to match as they were pretty rubbish as standard and doubling the power..... Also insuring it may be difficult. Just fitting the o/d box should not cause insurance problems as you tell them you have fitted an overdrive which was an option back in the day. They will not know different.

Also, handling was not a strong point of these, and doubling the power may get you into trouble.

I had considered this - the current brakes will lock all 4 wheels when properly set up. So I don't know how much more force could be applied?

Swapping to discs at the front would mean whole new suspension units and hubs.

The telescopic dampers are easily renewable, and GAZ say they can build replacement units.

1 hour ago, BeEP said:

I agree with Saabnut re brakes.  As with most of my opinions I know I'll be in the minority, but I'd...

• run it as is this summer otherwise you'll soon find it's October and the engine(s) still in bits,
• sell the 1800 engine as there will be some demand and funds can go towards...
• re-build the 1500 next winter
• keep the current gearbox if it is known to be good (and sell o/d box)
• investigate diff options.  I don't know anything about these, but did anything use the same diff but with a higher ratio (later A60/Oxford Farinas??)

Your first point sounds like the current thinking, having had input from folks on here and elsewhere. It seems a sensible step to get the car useable!

I don't yet know of I agree with points 2/3/4

Regarding diffs - apparently a60 Farina/mgb/mg Magnette would all work.

56 minutes ago, artdjones said:

https://www.camskill.co.uk/m53b0s477p111220/Vredestein_Tyres_Car_Vredestein_Sprint_Classic_-_155_R15_82S_TL_Fuel_Eff_%3A_XC_Wet_Grip%3A_XC_NoiseClass%3A_XC_Noise%3A_XC

Apparently 155/80/15 are available £81 each.

As I understand it 155/r15 are 82 profile, so going up to 165/80 is closer.

I'm not fussed re having period correct tyre patterns. I'd like good grip and easy/cheap to replace if needed.

Thanks for finding those though!

43 minutes ago, ETCHY said:

1500 and original gearbox. 

It is what it is, it's old slow but it'll get you there. I'd just enjoy its old world charm. Upgrades are fine and doubtless many will disagree but imo there's something to be said for just owning & enjoying a car as it would have been in period.

I fully understand this opinion. It's the most straightforward, most period correct and also likely to retain the most originality/value.

My current plan would be to get the 1500 up and going for use this year - that may then prove enough?

35 minutes ago, Jikovron said:

I reckon 1800 single carb on the original box with a MGB auto 3.7 or MGC 3.3  diff,  I doubt there is enough room in the tunnel for the bulk of the OD , but at least the original gear selector can be reused in place of the Mgb remote also I think your stuck with the convoluted single downpipe so may be looking at more like 75bhp than a possible 95 but with way more useable torque.

Note that 67 onwards there was a bigger flywheel and revised backplate for a preengaged starter but it should fit the early gearbox with a check to ensure the spigot bearing is the right size, however even then 4 synchro boxs are literally pocket change to buy.

Not sure how similar MGB uprights are but could be something to investigate brakes wise although imo generally it's easily possible to drive within the capability of the brakes 

Thanks for the knowledge on this. Very useful re starter etc.

I think MGB uprights are significantly different..

2 minutes ago, DSdriver said:

If you are going to use the second engine whip the sump off and check the main bearings. We did that when I bought what was a working DS engine and found that the journals on one crank were spinning and would only have lasted a short while. It saved a lot of time and money.

"Too much power is never enough" as the saying goes

A very good point. I think a teardown of the 1800 could be done easily whilst the 1500 is in use. That then tells me if the 1800 is worth the use.

[chaseracer]

1 hour ago, artdjones said:

https://www.camskill.co.uk/m53b0s477p111220/Vredestein_Tyres_Car_Vredestein_Sprint_Classic_-_155_R15_82S_TL_Fuel_Eff_%3A_XC_Wet_Grip%3A_XC_NoiseClass%3A_XC_Noise%3A_XC

Apparently 155/80/15 are available £81 each.

The 165s will raise the gearing a little.

[Fumbler]

I was pondering this a couple minutes ago. In my mind, the 1800 with O/D 'box would be a 'sympathetic' upgrade so you can still use the vehicle with confidence on modern roads, and yet be able to easily return the car to stock. It's nice having a usable classic, but even nicer if it's one you know can get out its own way if needed.

[Back_For_More]

DSdriver beat me to it - but a quick check of the 1800 big ends etc... would be my first move - see if it is worth going forward with it.

If OK - top up the oil and look at 1800 with overdrive - have them sitting rebuilt and all setup ready to go in as the next winters project.......

Summer pootle - winter heart swap.

[GingerNuttz]

Rebuild the 1500 and use the OD box.

Stick a piper 285 cam in the 1500 with a set of twin carbs and call it a day.

[captain_70s]

11 hours ago, 320touring said:

I had considered this - the current brakes will lock all 4 wheels when properly set up. So I don't know how much more force could be applied?

Swapping to discs at the front would mean whole new suspension units and hubs.

Essentially brake upgrades are upping your chance of beating fade from small drums getting toasty. Something to consider when on hills and twisty roads.

Decent drums will overpower the tyre's grip level, when they're dry and cool. Wet/hot may be another issue, but drive accordingly and it's no major issue. It's not exactly a sporty number, even with a bigger engine the real aim is more torques so a full boot won't render the top speed 38mph with a tailwind. 

The Dolomite's brakes are largely considered "subpar", but I've never found it an issue going along at 50-55mph. Hammering a Sprint and heaving on the anchors on the corners? Probably a concern.

[320touring]

Went over to do more on this today.

 

@Supernaut and @dome turned up and were an epic help.

 

Drained the diff, ptfe'd the plugs and refilled. Vactan'd the rear of the car, refitted dampers.

Got it turned round and figured out why the pedal was shite.

Fitted two new wheel cyls and a new Flexi line to front left.

Brakes now much more positive.

Got drivers front to do on wed I think.