The grumpy thread

1,345 · February 21, 2019

Oh, The Moog. That's a shame, he was genuinely OK, but I can understand why he might have wanted to leave the moderation team.

It might have saved me a bit of typing.

Everyone that disagrees with a certain - and actually rather small - element within the Autoshite community has been told to "fuck off" to a new site.

That site was created by the AS management, and then abandoned to its fate. At least one other member of the 'management team' have been closing threads for dubious reasons and pointing long-standing contributors away from this site.

Now call me cynical, but what the fuck is going on here? So much for light-touch moderation, which is what we originally signed up for.

Billy, I'm calling for you to step down as moderator. I no longer have faith in your impartiality, and you have repeatedly swerved any and all attempts made by contributors to introduce an element of community control into this website. After all, AS is its community - not its moderators. You were chosen initially as a long-standing member that had the respect of the community. I think you've lost that respect.

And I'd like to vote Dave_Q in to replace him. From what I've seen he's done a great job of remaining impartial on the other forum, and he's been a member of our community for years.

+1

While i cant say ive had any run ins with the mods or anyone for that matter, closing certain threads has turned this place into a bit of an echo chamber (and yes i am a lefty ffs!)

Poll would be good IMHO

3,384 · February 21, 2019

A poll would be political and therefore shut down

Seriously though, I stand with John F on this (which I know counts for slightly less than fuck all) - levels of moderation are bonkers on this place, we're actually moderating in advance of any offence happening - The thought police are here...

5,839 · February 21, 2019

Something something, vegetable growing judging, something something, nude calendar, something something, concours originality...

???????

17,820 · February 21, 2019

Are we going to get all four corners? Let's wait and see. Eyes down.

1,345 · February 21, 2019

A poll would be political and therefore shut down

Seriously though, I stand with John F on this (which I know counts for slightly less than fuck all) - levels of moderation are bonkers on this place, we're actually moderating in advance of any offence happening - The thought police are here...

I also stand with john F

10,796 · February 21, 2019

???????

Apparently he originally posted another video link, but then thought better & edited his post.

I didn't view the video, but I bet it was hilarious*

129,240 · February 21, 2019

Did I actually read that someone who it could be suggested partly caused one of the best moderators to leave here is now shedding crocodile tears over him standing down?

17,820 · February 21, 2019

For the record, the video was Ron Burgundy’s ‘Stay Classy San Diego’.

10,796 · February 21, 2019

Laseraligningfoofooflanges, on 21 Feb 2019 - 12:56 PM, said:
+1

While i cant say ive had any run ins with the mods or anyone for that matter, closing certain threads has turned this place into a bit of an echo chamber (and yes i am a lefty ffs!)

Poll would be good IMHO

I'm probably left of centre myself.

But so was the STASI, allegedly...

Cavcraft, on 21 Feb 2019 - 1:21 PM, said:
Did I actually read that someone who it could be suggested partly caused one of the best moderators to leave here is now shedding crocodile tears over him standing down?

I'm struggling to parse that sentence, are you accusing me of something?

Not that it matters. Any thoughts on what I wrote, Billy?

17,820 · February 21, 2019

We’ve got three of the four corners, lads!

18,718 · February 21, 2019

I have remained silent on the ongoing bitching about moderation, but feel that the mod team need some support. I have my own forum (uksaabs) which is the worlds busiest Saab forum. I have a damned good moderation team, and see the other side of this argument. I have been here over 8 years, but only really started to use the site post apocalypse. That is not coincidence. I like the attitude here, and more importantly I like the people here. That does not mean I support ALL the moderation decisions, hell, I don't support all the moderation decisions on my own forum, but overall, it works out.

Forums go through stages, they start off as a small group, that expands as more people of a like mind join up. This creates a "club" feel, all get on and no moderation is required. Because it is a nice place to spend some time, more people join, some of whome have a slightly different mindset, so some moderation is required. The original group approve of this. It remains a nice place, so more and more people join, and naturally some of the originals drop off and move on. Slowly, the original club feel is lost, and some of the originals mourn the passing. The forum grows, and more people of a totally different mindset join, so now moderation is essential Eventually, a thread one of the founders has taken part in has something added which blows up, so the thread is deleted. The founder has missed the offensive stuff, just sees their thread has gone. Founder complains loudly and buggers off. (It is easy to say a pm would sort it, but who do you pm? Everyone who took part on the thread? Who is going to do that? Moderators have a life and are unpaid).

The forum continues to grow, as it is a nice place to spend some time (still) and a lot of this is down to the moderators spending a lot of time on a thankless task. In an ideal world, no moderation would be needed but people are argumentative idiots some of the time. As the forum grows, those with the slightly different mindset to the founders become the majority and the FEEL of the forum changes, it is still a nice place to be, but it is different, and that is the stage this forum is at now. A small, vocal minority complain, justifiably, that it is not the same, but the silent majority like it here and carry on. Nothing stands still, it either goes forwards or backwards. AS can go back to what it was, which in MY opinion was often hostile with some not very nice people on it, in which case I will go and find somewhere I like, or it can move forward and see where we go. On UKS one poster almost brought the forum to its knees (with politics of all things) so we banned politics and eventually the poster. He set up a rival, unmoderated Saab forum which started off well, I even joined. It became a cess pit with threats of legal action and eventually closed.

This is the longest post I have put on AS, so will end now.

TL:DR I like it here, I support the moderators, I do not agree with all the moderators are doing but overall it is fine. If you like it here, great, if you don't find somewhere you do OR, like most things in life, compromise!

12,950 · February 21, 2019

I thought it was all Dave not Dave's fault.

Things are getting a little out of hand again.

Possibly instigated by poor moderation in a few instances, but some members are certainly not helping.

8,626 · February 21, 2019

Jesus, and I thought I was angry.

10,796 · February 21, 2019

Saabnut, I understand what you're saying about running a forum, and I appreciate that the job of a moderator is not easy.

But I no longer get the feeling that Cavcraft is impartial.

Impartiality, I feel, is a critical characteristic in a website moderator.

25,641 · February 21, 2019

Lots of 'feelings'.

No FACTS.

February 21, 2019

I agree with John F's and others point about the absurdity of not being able to discuss car plant closures on a motoring forum.

There are laws regarding free speech (reffering to the UK) (Don't incite hatred or shout fire in a crowded cinema etc.), surely those are good enough and there doesn't need to be any additions to that on an internet forum. As long as a thread is labelled regarding subject matter, so those not interested can avoid it if they wish what is the problem? I don't get it why so many subjects are taboo all of a sudden.

18,718 · February 21, 2019

Saabnut, I understand what you're saying about running a forum, and I appreciate that the job of a moderator is not easy.

But I no longer get the feeling that Cavcraft is impartial.

Impartiality, I feel, is a critical characteristic in a website moderator.

Fair comment, but are you really aware of what is going on behind the scenes, and why some actions have been taken? From my experience of moderating it is like the proverbial swan! On UKS we just appointed a new Mod, who was astounded at the work required and he has been a member for well over 10 years.

Can I suggest at least a PM to Cavcraft, and ideally swap phone numbers. Talk to each other, see the others point of view, and if you still feel the same, then fair enough, come back on here and tell us about it!

12,950 · February 21, 2019

Or go elsewhere yourself.

61,759 · February 21, 2019

TL; DR

people are argumentative idiots some of the time.

And there you have it - the entire problem summed up in eight words.

11,961 · February 21, 2019

I have remained silent on the ongoing bitching about moderation, but feel that the mod team need some support. I have my own forum (uksaabs) which is the worlds busiest Saab forum. I have a damned good moderation team, and see the other side of this argument. I have been here over 8 years, but only really started to use the site post apocalypse. That is not coincidence. I like the attitude here, and more importantly I like the people here. That does not mean I support ALL the moderation decisions, hell, I don't support all the moderation decisions on my own forum, but overall, it works out.

Forums go through stages, they start off as a small group, that expands as more people of a like mind join up. This creates a "club" feel, all get on and no moderation is required. Because it is a nice place to spend some time, more people join, some of whome have a slightly different mindset, so some moderation is required. The original group approve of this. It remains a nice place, so more and more people join, and naturally some of the originals drop off and move on. Slowly, the original club feel is lost, and some of the originals mourn the passing. The forum grows, and more people of a totally different mindset join, so now moderation is essential Eventually, a thread one of the founders has taken part in has something added which blows up, so the thread is deleted. The founder has missed the offensive stuff, just sees their thread has gone. Founder complains loudly and buggers off. (It is easy to say a pm would sort it, but who do you pm? Everyone who took part on the thread? Who is going to do that? Moderators have a life and are unpaid).

The forum continues to grow, as it is a nice place to spend some time (still) and a lot of this is down to the moderators spending a lot of time on a thankless task. In an ideal world, no moderation would be needed but people are argumentative idiots some of the time. As the forum grows, those with the slightly different mindset to the founders become the majority and the FEEL of the forum changes, it is still a nice place to be, but it is different, and that is the stage this forum is at now. A small, vocal minority complain, justifiably, that it is not the same, but the silent majority like it here and carry on. Nothing stands still, it either goes forwards or backwards. AS can go back to what it was, which in MY opinion was often hostile with some not very nice people on it, in which case I will go and find somewhere I like, or it can move forward and see where we go. On UKS one poster almost brought the forum to its knees (with politics of all things) so we banned politics and eventually the poster. He set up a rival, unmoderated Saab forum which started off well, I even joined. It became a cess pit with threats of legal action and eventually closed.

This is the longest post I have put on AS, so will end now.

TL:DR I like it here, I support the moderators, I do not agree with all the moderators are doing but overall it is fine. If you like it here, great, if you don't find somewhere you do OR, like most things in life, compromise!

Basically that was the perfect description of how forums work.

As I see it, this forum is moving on from its “teenage rebellion” phase on to a more mature, nay, grown up footing and has changed beyond all recognition from the infant forum it once was. The big problem we have now is that there are some who are unwilling to let go of the old forum and embrace what it has become.

Is it for the better though? Well that depends what you are looking for. If you want an all inclusive group of like minded folk who appreciate the nuances of the odd, ordinary or just plain dull then this is the place to be. If you want the rough, ready autoshite of old where anything goes, no matter who it offends, upsets or down right libels then maybe a new forum might be the way for you. But beware that the new offshoot forum exists solely because of the first and it trying to stand on its own two feet will mean it will have to change to a more “people friendly” model too.

Now the “people friendly” forum has great disadvantages when a good number of its members consist of - how do I delicately put it - misfits. They, rightly or wrongly - it’s not for me to judge, believe that their beloved home has become too bland, too beige (ironically) and resentment builds up whe they are not allowed to get away with what they used to. Well, they’re right, it has changed but it had to to survive longer term. You are not going to encourage new members, the lifeblood of any successful foru, by continually telling them to fuck off and grow a pair. It’s kind of selfish too as you are wilfully sabotaging the future of the wealth of information contained for future generations. Many times I hear “ the forum is it’s members” well yes, duh! But the forum is also the members that haven’t joined yet as they will continue the legacy after you have shuffled off this mortal coil and if it means being a bit more family friendly to encourage them, then that’s what needs to be done.

So enough of the navel gazing and let’s come up with some solutions, shall we? Here’s some of mine.

There needs to be a lace to blow off some steam, once in a while so a sub-section that is as unmoderated as the law allows is a good thing. After a period of time of no further posts being added the thread will be deleted. One rule is that whatever goes on there stays in there. If anyone barely mentions what goes on in there in the other forums it’s a strike. Three strikes and you’re out. End of. No coming back as a new username and stirring - it’s time you grew up and drew a pair and take the responsibility that you screwed up.

The us and them stupidity between the current mods and the members has to stop. Now. Maybe it’s time for a new team but a team based upon impartiality and fairness not who the most popular ones are at the time. Preferably I’d want people with a track record of impartiality and who neither side particularly wants. Sorry mods but even if you paid every member £1000 there will be a vocal minority who will go out of their way to disrupt because of some perceived personal beef with you. You have become tainted and so for the betterment of the whole it would be in the best interests to step aside and take a break. It’s not to say what you have done so far is wrong but you have become tainted and that’s not in the best interests of the forum.

This popularity contests nonsense has to stop too. Everyone is equal and everyone deserves a fair crack of the whip. Self promotion for financial gain is also not on. If you intend to make money, a living or just get a pint or two out of what you do with old rammed like ours please don’t shout about it loudly here. It’s not the place (see the start of the paragraph) If you want to advertise your business, or whatever, then maybe a small section where this is done is more applicable rather than across the main page in various posts. Again, not a dig but I wish to see everyone having a fair crack of the whip and they might not have the same resources or whatever as you but it doesn’t mean what they do is any less valid.

Opinion matters. How you voice that opinion also matters. Here the bar analogy is a good one. In the hypothetical bar, any opinion is valid but if you wish to put your point across loudly and offensively then all that will happen is that the landlord will call over large Harry, the bouncer and have you and all of your friends out on the pavement. Then nobody wins (even though the only pissing competition was with yourself). If you wish to let of steam, then go to the vent room.

So there we are. My thoughts on the matter. Are they better than yours? God no, but all I want to see is autoshite, a place that has carried me over some very dark times in the past and allowed me contact with some good, good people, to continue long after I’m wheeled off to the great u-pull-it in the sky.

9,536 · February 21, 2019

I think we need a thread specifically for grumps about the way the forum is run, separate from this grumpy thread.

14,875 · February 21, 2019

I didn't agree with some moderating decisions whilst I was a moderator, but they were/are all undertaken with the best interests of the whole forum and it's membership at heart. There are no hidden agendas, no personal vendettas, and no unilateral moderating actions.

Cavcraft works harder than anyone for the good of the forum as a whole. It would be a hugely sad day if he were to be hounded out by a vocal minority who know/care little about the immense work he does behind the scenes.

It is a fact of life that there will always be a percentage of the population that are dickheads, and as the forum membership has grown greatly in the last few years so has the (still thankfully relatively small) number of unpleasant people who treat this place as somewhere to let their rampant narcissism run wild, shouting their opinions about matters for which they don't know (or care about) the full story. Usually while posting nothing about cars.

Take for example the absurd outcry over the recent temporary ban handed out to a member. This particular member has ignored countless polite requests and subsequent warnings about posting vile derogatory slurs on people of a different race, gender, sexuality, size, and the disabled. During my time as a mod he probably accounted for half the total forum posts that needed to be hidden and yet not once showed the slightest care or inkling that he might be doing anything wrong. It seems that after a frankly astonishing amount of patience and leniency on behalf of all the moderation team he was finally banned as a last resort. This has lead to a slew of posts from a shouty minority defending him and slagging off the mods, saying that they never saw him post anything bad. You'd think the clue in the term 'hidden posts' would be picked up on but seemingly not. You don't see the bad stuff, the disgusting bigotry and whatnot, because it has been HIDDEN. Barring heavily edited (and often false) versions of what happened from the member himself, people do not see the full picture yet still some are desperate to yell their uninformed opinions.

There is not an increase in moderation, just unfortunately an increase in posts that need to be moderated. The guidelines have never changed. There are a few simple rules to follow which boil down to 'don't be a dickhead' and 'POST ABOUT CARS'. It's not difficult.

I, like The Moog, stepped down as moderator not because we disagreed with any moderating decisions or fellow moderators but because the troublemaking minority on here were making the job so massively unbearably unpleasant. If these people used even a fraction of the time they spent trying to cause disharmony on trying to add something to the forum then this would be a much brighter place.

10,796 · February 21, 2019

I didn't agree with some moderating decisions whilst I was a moderator, but they were/are all undertaken with the best interests of the whole forum and it's membership at heart. There are no hidden agendas, no personal vendettas, and no unilateral moderating actions.
Cavcraft works harder than anyone for the good of the forum as a whole. It would be a hugely sad day if he were to be hounded out by a vocal minority who know/care little about the immense work he does behind the scenes.
It is a fact of life that there will always be a percentage of the population that are dickheads, and as the forum membership has grown greatly in the last few years so has the (still thankfully relatively small) number of unpleasant people who treat this place as somewhere to let their rampant narcissism run wild, shouting their opinions about matters for which they don't know (or care about) the full story. Usually while posting nothing about cars.
Take for example the absurd outcry over the recent temporary ban handed out to a member. This particular member has ignored countless polite requests and subsequent warnings about posting vile derogatory slurs on people of a different race, gender, sexuality, size, and the disabled. During my time as a mod he probably accounted for half the total forum posts that needed to be hidden and yet not once showed the slightest care or inkling that he might be doing anything wrong. It seems that after a frankly astonishing amount of patience and leniency on behalf of all the moderation team he was finally banned as a last resort. This has lead to a slew of posts from a shouty minority defending him and slagging off the mods, saying that they never saw him post anything bad. You'd think the clue in the term 'hidden posts' would be picked up on but seemingly not. You don't see the bad stuff, the disgusting bigotry and whatnot, because it has been HIDDEN. Barring heavily edited (and often false) versions of what happened from the member himself, people do not see the full picture yet still some are desperate to yell their uninformed opinions.
There is not an increase in moderation, just unfortunately an increase in posts that need to be moderated. The guidelines have never changed. There are a few simple rules to follow which boil down to 'don't be a dickhead' and 'POST ABOUT CARS'. It's not difficult.
I, like The Moog, stepped down as moderator not because we disagreed with any moderating decisions or fellow moderators but because the troublemaking minority on here were making the job so massively unbearably unpleasant. If these people used even a fraction of the time they spent trying to cause disharmony on trying to add something to the forum then this would be a much brighter place.

Alex, I've supported this site for many years. I'm rarely one of the trouble-causers, and have never received a warning.

However what I cannot understand is why it is so difficult for the moderation team to seek the community's opinion when making important decisions, and to provide us with an element of transparency about decisions taken.

Many years ago I suggested that a poll was held to decide whether to split the board into the Main forum & Open forum, or to leave things as they were. This was not done, the decision was taken by persons unknown behind the back of the community.

Then I asked for a short message to be added to the "Members who have left" thread whenever (rarely, in all honesty) someone was banned, briefly explaining the circumstances. This has not been put into place.

A decision has been taken by the moderation team about what subjects are 'banned', again without the community being consulted. And nor, importantly, has the mod team explained why the community cannot be consulted.

Honestly, mate. It's like DaveGate all over again. The new site admins are doing a great job of running the website in a TOTALLY TRANSPARENT MANNER. Why can't the mods do the same?

This is my point, and the reason for my current deep frustration. I love this community, but certain people here seem determined to mould it to their own shape without giving the rest of us a say.

2,279 · February 21, 2019

WOW.....……

OK - I'm just putting this out there - but...…….

IF ANY poster, prolific or not is over the line - then the usual warnings and bans are of course merited. Can't argue with that….. Justly so. You can be as pissed off as you like, whether it's you or a mate, but a sense of decorum has to be maintained. As said many times though - it is inherently ingrained in the human nature to fight with the others - the entire planet is built on such conflicts. This place a is a microcosmic representation of evolution.

I would also ask - as a constant lurker - in the background to relieve boredom in the office - that instead of a thread being removed, how about it is locked and allowed to sink into oblivion? this place moves quickly enough that it will disappear quickly enough……. the final edit being the overlords (not a derogatory term fellas) telling us/them - over the line - reported/complaints/legalities? whatever it may be. In all fairness that would shut the naysayers up as a permanent example of what not to say or do would be there……. just a few pages back. Not sure if locking a thread would be more or less work than removing and facing the flak? A potential more visible and easier answer to whoever may be pissed off? Is that workable? Honest opinion wanted on that one if that's OK. If it isn't feasible as content would still leave you/us/AS open to a problem then I would (and others would) completely understand.

We are all adults - but take a look at the last 10 or so pages - it's like a bunch of fucking children……….. the epoque of an example for the argument for moderation - but also where moderation can be seen as totalitarian…… I'm not saying it is - but that is 'appears' to be - due to a lack of info. No - you're not beholding to 'us' - but arbitrary (or seen to be) measures are not acceptable behaviour in ANY community. I think the locking but leaving of threads would silence a lot of grouching. The blanking of posts that are in huge threads cannot be avoided….. but clarity on why it was done would be extremely helpful. It would also shut up/prevent misrepresentation of what factually happened. I honestly think THIS has been the worst part about any of this debacle - it's resulted in a he said he said fuckfest where no-one looks good and people jump on a 'side'...…

I'd also advocate - if you don't like a thread - as long as it isn't racist, criminally offensive or over various other legal limits - then be an adult - shut the fuck up and read something else. If ANYONE wants to overstep the mark and insult or degrade others then the axe should fall…… and they should fucking expect it too!

No matter what your opinion or mindset - or personal standpoint - leave people to live THEIR lives - here and elsewhere……. fucks sake...…..

10,796 · February 21, 2019

^ Good idea mate.

There's a chance that the debate about whether a thread deserved locking might spawn another thread to discuss it, but if it's in the Open forum why not just let it take place? Mods can either participate or ignore it, and the community will decide whether the measures were justified or not. If not, maybe the mods can learn from the discussion?

I'd rather be part of a community where we're all subject to review by our peers than have our social interaction dictated from on high, so to speak.

24,157 · February 21, 2019

The feelings of a couple of whingers who seem to want to be professionally offended and incapable of ignoring a thread seem to count for more than the feelings of the OP and contributors who put a lot of effort into making that thread a success. I'm a second class shiter and I know it.

6,158 · February 21, 2019

You can be sure a thread about bannings and thread lockings will degenerate into even more arguing and bickering.

2,279 · February 21, 2019

We’ve got three of the four corners, lads!

This is a perfect example of a useless none entity post that is purely there to goad others into reacting………. I'll probably get a warning I know - but it was your personal insults that helped lead us here fella. You've gone all - sorry, I've apologized……. and now are sitting like the little brat that goads the bullies and waits for them to bitch slap him before running off to cry to teacher about it. GROW UP MAN!

Take a step back from the keyboard and chill the fuck out!

EDIT - and the term 'lads' - is the perfect example of the 'its us or them ain't it fellas attitude that fucking SUCKS DONKEY WANG

2nd edit - sorry - Grumpius - I know you do car stuff...…. go do it - then post it - seriously fella - we'd appreciate that a hell of a lot mor than the above… I hope you get my drift …

61,759 · February 21, 2019

The blanking of posts that are in huge threads cannot be avoided….. but clarity on why it was done would be extremely helpful. It would also shut up/prevent misrepresentation of what factually happened.

That's a good point actually. I can understand the reasoning behind mods not wanting to share the content of PMs (in fact I fully agree with said stance), but if something has been posted in an open thread then it was evidently intended for public consumption and there therefore shouldn't be any issues with at least giving a summary of what was said and why it was over the line - if indeed the original post is deemed too offensive to leave visible.

(Of course that's a whole nother debate - I'm a firm subscriber to "sticks and stones may break my bones but pixels on a screen can never hurt me", but I realise I'm old fashioned in that respect.)

26,563 · February 21, 2019

Depends how hard you headbutt said screen I suppose

The grumpy thread

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