Juular's Jap Sigh - problem solved

[juular]

 

 

Here's the story. We bought this 2 years ago as Mrs juular missed her old celica and I always fancied one. Even back then these were shed money but we spent a good long time looking for an ok one. Most of the ones we saw were absolute shite with bits hanging off and several owners had painted bits of the doors and wing in underseal which didn't inspire confidence.

I crawled underneath this one with a small tappy hammer and it all seemed reassuringly solid. It had a very clean mot history and not a mark on the body.

They are revvy little cars with good handling and bulletproof Yamaha engines and for 2 years it asked for not one thing but oil changes and petrol. Until one day only 2 weeks after a clean MOT this happened.

These have a reputation for rusty subframes but the part of concern is mostly hidden under the back box.  What happened here though is the control arm has separated from the hub in an area that equally looks fine until one day it isn't

Thankfully I was only doing 20 at the time so I only screamed a little bit and didn't die.

Of course I started poking around didn't I.

 

These have nice plastic sill covers that again try to pretend everything is fine until it isn't. The outer sills seem surprisingly ok though.

Until I started poking underneath.

What's happened here is that some tyre fud has lifted it and folded the seams over which has created a weak spot to allow in the Scottish rust fairies.

There are some good points. The body is still nice, the engine is sound and apart from it falling apart it runs very sweetly. That and it still has £50 of petrol in it so my man maths says I need to keep it and fix it.

Stay tuned for me making a fool of myself, wasting money, and justifying endless tool buying sprees to save a £500 shed.

[SRi05]

Jesus, never realised these got so crispy. Only a 05 plate as well

[somewhatfoolish]

Was this secretly driven from Japan to the UK to save on shipping costs?

[juular]

Somewhere, beyond the sea..

My old man is a retired welder and for some reason he completely fell in love with this car. Whenever I visited he always asked me to bring over the 'celcia' so he could go to dobbies and his allotment in style and comfort. He kept trying to buy it off me even though he no longer drives.

When I told him it was fucked and needed welding he grieved for at least several minutes, before telling me to keep it and that to be a real man I had to learn to glue bits of metal together. One day before I had decided whether to scrap it or not he went out and bought and got this.

No pressure then.

Full disclosure:

Nevertheless I have spent several weeks ruining some sheet metal and at least haven't killed myself so I'm around 60% confident I can do this, to the extent I'm betting this broken shitter on it.

Before I make sparks I am going to unbolt my £50 of petrol and put it somewhere safe.

Since things are in the way I'm just going to dismantle the lot, give it all a clean and let it sit in some acid and everything will be fine. So easy.

Wanky rear brake assembly which has both a disc and a drum. Why?

 

Ingenious toyota design for getting drums over the shoes at least.

With the hub off you can see where it has separated from the control arm.

It looks like the bit where it bolts together acts as a little scoop for road shit, much like several other areas on  this car.

I needed some gas for the blowtorch to get the strut off, and it started snowing again, so that's where I'm at.

[Spiny Norman]

I like these but they do seem to be getting a bit of a reputation for getting a bit grotty underneath.
I'm sure that for most manufacturers, post 2000 cars are far worse for rusting than 90s ones. The 95 Paseo I had last year was pretty sound underneath, although both rear sills had been done in the past.

 

[juular]

To be fair I think the main area of concern is confined to the rear subframe. I am unlucky thanks to the aforementioned tire fud and  a leak in the boot which I never noticed until it was too late.

It doesn't help that the roads are made of concentrated impacted salt around here and it doesnt take long for a small nick in the paint to become a gaping rothole.

Saying that I still have yet to see one that isn't crustier than it should be, and proper good ones are now being pushed for over 3k.

[Snipes]

Yeah I have to agree. This was an odd period for Toyota where they seemed to lose grip on their excellent build quality and all the bonkers 90s Turbos were being retired and not replaced. About the time they were chasing down GM as worlds largest and shut down all their iconic motorsport efforts to do really well* at F1.

[Dick Cheeseburger]

1 hour ago, juular said:

Maybe I should have left it there.

 

Here's the story. We bought this 2 years ago as Mrs juular missed her old celica and I always fancied one. Even back then these were shed money but we spent a good long time looking for an ok one. Most of the ones we saw were absolute shite with bits hanging off and several owners had painted bits of the doors and wing in underseal which didn't inspire confidence.

I crawled underneath this one with a small tappy hammer and it all seemed reassuringly solid. It had a very clean mot history and not a mark on the body.

They are revvy little cars with good handling and bulletproof Yamaha engines and for 2 years it asked for not one thing but oil changes and petrol. Until one day only 2 weeks after a clean MOT this happened.

These have a reputation for rusty subframes but the part of concern is mostly hidden under the back box.  What happened here though is the control arm has separated from the hub in an area that equally looks fine until one day it isn't

Thankfully I was only doing 20 at the time so I only screamed a little bit and didn't die.

Of course I started poking around didn't I.

 

These have nice plastic sill covers that again try to pretend everything is fine until it isn't. The outer sills seem surprisingly ok though.

Until I started poking underneath.

What's happened here is that some tyre fud has lifted it and folded the seams over which has created a weak spot to allow in the Scottish rust fairies.

There are some good points. The body is still nice, the engine is sound and apart from it falling apart it runs very sweetly. That and it still has £50 of petrol in it so my man maths says I need to keep it and fix it.

Stay tuned for me making a fool of myself, wasting money, and justifying endless tool buying sprees to save a £500 shed.

Bloody nora. These are known for grotty arses, but that's a new level of ginge. I would offer to take it off your hands as a donor VVTLI for my MR2 , but that wouldn't be cricket. Good man for sticking with it. My father ended up buying a replacement rear sub frame from Toyota around five years back as all the secondhand examples were shite.

Back on topic with yours, if you change your mind and want shot of the car., I'm all ears... ?

 

[Scruffy Bodger]

It'll be interesting* to see just how far that grot goes into the car when you start cutting into it considering how much you can see on the photos already. You're not going to need any Iron supplement tablets for a while when you start breathing all that lot in too!

That new R-tech looks like a good bit of kit to play with though

[juular]

22 minutes ago, Dick Longbridge said:

Bloody nora. These are known for grotty arses, but that's a new level of ginge. I would offer to take it off your hands as a donor VVTLI for my MR2 , but that wouldn't be cricket. Good man for sticking with it. My father ended up buying a replacement rear sub frame from Toyota around five years back as all the secondhand examples were shite.

Back on topic with yours, if you change your mind and want shot of the car., I'm all ears... ?

 

Thanks. It's only a VVTi though so probably not much use to you. 

I'm holding off on buying parts until I see how deep the rust goes. It may end up back in the sea. If I give it a good shove I reckon I can get it in the river Forth.

If nothing else the car is currently costing me nothing and it's welding practice until I get fed up with it. I would really like to have it running again as I do kind of miss it / sick of looking at it.

 

[Dick Cheeseburger]

19 minutes ago, juular said:

Thanks. It's only a VVTi though so probably not much use to you. 

I'm holding off on buying parts until I see how deep the rust goes. It may end up back in the sea. If I give it a good shove I reckon I can get it in the river Forth.

If nothing else the car is currently costing me nothing and it's welding practice until I get fed up with it. I would really like to have it running again as I do kind of miss it / sick of looking at it.

 

Ah, fairy schnuff.  For some reason I thought it was a vvtli 190. 

If you do give up on it, and you have the space, it would be worth breaking it rather than binning. They break quite well. 

[drewd]

Wow, fair play for giving it a chance of a longer life. I hope the grot isn't too widespread.

I had a 03 place VVTI until around this time last year, and really enjoyed driving it for the 2 years I had it. As far as I know it's still on the road. They're more fun than their spec would suggest.

[juular]

Just now, drewd said:

Wow, fair play for giving it a chance of a longer life. I hope the grot isn't too widespread.

I had a 03 place VVTI until around this time last year, and really enjoyed driving it for the 2 years I had it. As far as I know it's still on the road. They're more fun than their spec would suggest.

Indeed. The 140 often gets called limp wristed but the fun value in these is the driving position and handling, something I find many other similar cars lack. 

I do also have a soft spot for banzai high revving engines and these sound motorbikey when you wind them right up which all adds to the fun. It means you stop caring that you are frequently overtaken by vans on sliproads because noise.

There is something about effortlessly pinging along a b-road looking down over the fake bonnet scoop with your arm on the windowsill that makes me want to save this.

[Talbot]

Being realistic for a moment, that is going to take a reasonable amount of reconstructive surgery.  The actual welding aspect (IE striking the arc and gluing metal together) is probably the easiest part of the work.  What takes the time is cutting back to good metal, fabricating the repair sections, cleaning everything up ready for welding.  That involves grinding at awkward angles, spraying rust into your face, folding, forming and bashing the shit out of steel sheet, and once the welding is actually done, dripping zinc paint and underseal all over yourself/your face/your driveway.

And given what you've already taken photos of, I will bet a fiver (even a Clydesdale bank one) that you're less than half-way through finding the rot.  If it's gone on the offside, you can bet good money the nearside is on it's way and/or already gone. 

Find ALL the rot before you even break out an extension lead for the grinder.  Get the arse-end of the car up as high as you can on massive axle-stands and poke at everything.  You do not want to repair everywhere you think is rotten, only to then find another massive area of rot.  It's bloody depressing at best, and could then write-off all the work you've already done.

Also factor in the cost of replacement arms/subframe as necessary.  Given what you've found, I'd be inclined to remove the rear subframe complete, as there are clearly more hidden horrors under there.  You might find you're looking at a surprisingly large bill for parts, just to get yourself back to where you were.

Have you taken the rear bumper off yet to see what's hiding under there?

I'm not trying to be all doom-and-gloom, just trying to put some perspective on this.  If you have never tackled any form of fabricating or welding before, this is a bloody huge job to do as a first start.

That said, if you have time, equipment and someone experienced to guide you, then don't let anyone stop you!  The main thing there is time.

[sutty2006]

My mates mum had one of these same colour same age brand new, all I can remember was a 6”2 lad can’t sit very comfortable in the back! 

[junkyarddog]

I had a 190 version a few years back.

Really neat little cars,but the interior plastics were a real let down.

Never went wrong in the 4 years I owned it,but I was starting to find the ride uncomfortable and I needed something a bit bigger,so I sold it.

Still kinda have pangs of regret about it.

[tooSavvy]

....... I really like my Carina II (my floorpan is the grandad of FWD Celiee floorpan!)

Low with a bit go.....

[juular]

2 hours ago, Talbot said:

I'm not trying to be all doom-and-gloom, just trying to put some perspective on this.  If you have never tackled any form of fabricating or welding before, this is a bloody huge job to do as a first start.

Appreciate the sentiments. I have had this chat with myself as I am aware it's easy to underestimate a rot job.

The way I see it is this can take two years if it has to as I have the space to store it and a reliable daily. I've allocated a budget and my first job is to strip any rot down to see how far it goes before I consider going further. If it is going to blow that budget then it's time to reconsider.

 I am not going to patch a few holes, I have the tools to strip the whole underside to the metal and that's my next move once the suspension and fuel tank are off.

I have a guy who does toyota breakers who has given me likely costs on a complete subframe and control arms but I have budgeted for buying these new.

I might have come across as flippant but this is my way of approaching new projects as I'm naturally a depressive bugger and need to keep the chat light or I give up.

Surprisingly the nearside is largely fine which is the opposite of what you'd expect.  It makes me wonder if the previous owner has left it partly on the grass.

Under the rear bumper is super crispy, but one crisis at a time.

[Angrydicky]

Wow hats off to you for deciding to have a go at this. It won’t be pleasant and will take a lot of time, but it’s only metal and if you’re prepared to put the hours and sheets of steel into it it will be worth it in the end!

I welded up a car worse a few years ago but it was a bona fide 55 year old classic car so I really take my hat off to folk like you and @Jikovron who are willing to tackle 15 year old worthless stuff with galloping rot. Well done!

[Jikovron]

As a learning excercise this works out as worst case it's a disposable car, additionally the majority of celicas out there will be the same imo so your just on route to making a decent example if it goes to plan.

The only thing I can add is access, loads of cereal boxes, some sort of flame retardant shelter if needed and a garden hose handy for possible fire issues.

Also if something is slightly in the way, whip it off or move it to one side.

I pondered the possibility of taking moulds from the car to simplify the process of making panels but I suspect expanding foam in a bin bag may lack the resolution desired.

Will follow with interest!

[somewhatfoolish]

16 minutes ago, Jikovron said:

The only thing I can add is access, loads of cereal boxes, some sort of flame retardant shelter if needed and a garden hose handy for possible fire issues.

Spray bottle or even one of those garden sprayers with water in for extinguishing "oops it's on fire" moments is better, although with the latter you still need to remember to give it a pump or two before starting to set fire to things.

[Scruffy Bodger]

I always keep the spanner for the welding gas bottle inside the welder for any eventualities involving excess flames. It is an old fire extinguisher that's filled with Co2 after all... Cereal boxes are another good shout, the cardboard they use is pretty much perfect for templates.

Talbot made a lot of valid points too when it comes to projects like this, looking for ALL the rot first is very good advice. Materials wise jobs like this are relatively cheap it's the time that adds up. I've got previous for sorting uneconomic welding jobs, some of which is on a thread on here, always good to see someone else daft enough to have a go

[outlaw118]

Good work, I'm not going to piss on your chips, will follow this with some interest; my welding skillz are at best shit, and at worst downright laughable, but theres plenty of chaps on here that'll guide you in the ways of the sparkle stick.

 

BTW, is your username a nod towards a song title by a bald Canadian? ?

[juular]

2 minutes ago, outlaw118 said:

BTW, is your username a nod towards a song title by a bald Canadian? ?

[somewhatfoolish]

If you haven't already viewed them, @DodgyBastard's videos are well stocked with footage of hopelessly rotten shite being welded back together by a mad welder, so may offer discouragement/enabling depending on how mental you are.

[outlaw118]

....and I just noticed your SYL "profile" pic.....

Glad to know that myself and @inconsistant aren't the only fans on here.

 

Soz for the 'fred hijack \m/

[Crispian_J_Hotson]

That is actually worse than much of the rot found on a 34 year old, high mile, neglected BMW, to give some perspective. Well done!

MIG is easy, you learn quick because after 2 days, it's not a nice place to be!

[mat_the_cat]

6 hours ago, Talbot said:

You do not want to repair everywhere you think is rotten, only to then find another massive area of rot.  It's bloody depressing at best, and could then write-off all the work you've already done.

Completely agree, although the other way of looking at it is to make a start *before* a full assessment; that way when you realise it is truly a lost cause, you will already be in too deep to back out...

Not the 'right' way by any kind of objective judgment, but it makes for a better thread!

[Talbot]

3 minutes ago, mat_the_cat said:

Not the 'right' way by any kind of objective judgment, but it makes for a better thread!

You evil man.  That's genius!

[Talbot]

11 hours ago, juular said:

Wanky rear brake assembly which has both a disc and a drum. Why?

I don't think anyone else has answered this, so I'll have a guess.  It's most likely a disc brake for the service brake and a drum brake for the handbrake mechanism.  Was popular/common for a while on vehicles with rear discs, as putting a handbrake on a disc brake mechanism is fairly fraught with problems, be that either the pads/discs cooling down after a run and the car then rolling away, or an additional little caliper for a separate handbrake mechanism.  The easier solution is a tried-and-tested drum brake for the handbrake, but using the top-hat section of the disc as it's working surface.

With this setup, it's worth pulling the handbrake on with the car moving on a regular basis to keep the "drum" clear of rust, as otherwise the shoes only ever get put onto stationary metal, so it never gets cleared off.