Juular's Jap Sigh - problem solved

[Talbot]

To empty the tank, just locate the fuel return line in the engine bay, disconnect it and put the end into your jerry can.  Start the engine, and it will pump the tank out into your can.  Done this many times to drain the tank on a car going for scrap.

It is also sometimes possible to use the fuel feed from the tank up to the engine, and just put the ignition on, but the pump will likely only run for 10s or so before timing out.

1 hour ago, juular said:

I have been drowning everything in releasing fluids,

Looking at the state of that, you're way beyond releasing fluids.  I'd be looking at nut splitters and grinders.

[juular]

1 hour ago, Talbot said:

To empty the tank, just locate the fuel return line in the engine bay, disconnect it and put the end into your jerry can.  Start the engine, and it will pump the tank out into your can.  Done this many times to drain the tank on a car going for scrap.

It is also sometimes possible to use the fuel feed from the tank up to the engine, and just put the ignition on, but the pump will likely only run for 10s or so before timing out.

Looking at the state of that, you're way beyond releasing fluids.  I'd be looking at nut splitters and grinders.

I did consider this but didn't want to sit with the engine running for half an hour or however long it will take to chow through 40L, as my neighbours aren't the most understanding and pleasant folk. I'm now planning to siphon from under the passenger seats which should get the level low enough not to leak out of the filler.

As for the bolts, you are probably right but I have had good success with ATF + acetone mix in the past. It released a few clamp bolts where the threads are acessible but I suspect the rest will need the angry treatment as you say.

[Talbot]

7 minutes ago, juular said:

didn't want to sit with the engine running for half an hour or however long it will take to chow through 40L, as my neighbours aren't the most understanding and pleasant folk.

That will pail into insignificance compared to the amount of grinding, welding and swearing that will be coming from that car for the foreseeable future. 

[juular]

1 minute ago, Talbot said:

That will pail into insignificance compared to the amount of grinding, welding and swearing that will be coming from that car for the foreseeable future. 

Noise is fine - they are noisy buggers, but fumes are the problem given I currently have no exhaust or boundary fence thanks to the last storm. 

[somewhatfoolish]

Do these things have in-tank pumps? If so just get a bit of pipe into your jerrycan and power up the pump with a bit of wire from the battery.

[DodgyBastard]

Similar thing happened on my audi 80's rear beam falling off apart from I was doing 80mph at the time and it was 2 days after its mot.

 

 

I got away with just buying a new beam and making new mounts up.

 

 

 

That Celica looks utterly fucked, even I would be dreading trying to repair that amount of rust!

 

[Zelandeth]

Disconnect fuel feed at the engine end.  Find and bridge fuel pump relay.

You'll have the tank empty in minutes.  This way emptied the 35 litres or so from my Lada's tank in about five minutes.

It took longer to pour it from the 5 litre cans into the 20 litre ones than they did to fill!

[juular]

20 hours ago, DodgyBastard said:

That Celica looks utterly fucked, even I would be dreading trying to repair that amount of rust!

 

You may be right. It is clearly idiocy. It's  currently costing me very little except time so we'll see how it looks once I start chopping. I suspect the decider will be how far the rot has crept inside the inner sills and chassis.

Ooft at the Audi. Wonder if we had the same MOT guy.

[TRW]

Rover 75 has the disc/drum arrangement, along with some Subaru model(s) I'm led to believe.

Only a madman would want to tackle that rust on a 15 year old Toyota. As this is Autoshite though, get it welded up.

 

[juular]

It's decision time for this heap.

Progress so far.

Most bits came off without having to break anything. Only snapped 1 bolt on the ARB which I can weld a nut onto to remove.

Rusty montage of shame:

Rear crash bar, hory sheet:

As these are only £15 for a decent replacement it can gtf.

So here we see what happens when you reverse down a slipway and park for a month.

As bad as it looks, the metal is pretty sound and there are no holes underneath. I set to work with a hammer and screwdriver and mostly found globs of rotten underseal. I jetwashed and degreased it a couple of times then set to work here and there with a knotted wire wheel on the grinder. Most metal came up mildly pitted or just shiny and I think treatment with hydrate 80 and then epoxy mastic will sort this out. 

I have been chopping bits out here and there to inspect further and have got a camera into the box sections and generally things look ok with regards to the chassis, being met with clean grey paint inside. So it looks like the rust is outside in.

I've made up templates and a few repair panels for the arches and boot floor, and I'm generally happy about those bits going back together soundly.

I started opening up a section of the sill where the hole was. I can fabricate bits for this no bother and repair the jacking point while I'm there. Most of the rust is low down and straightforward to cut out and replace. The rear 25% will need done, the front is completely clean inside. In fact the whole front 75% of the car is sound.

The bit that concerned me the most was down in the corner of the rear wheel arch where everything meets and all the mud sits.

I just knew this inconspicuous little hole would be hiding a world of pain.

Chop chop.

The main chassis here is OK and scrubbed up to clean metal but the bit that is giving me the fear is the mounting point for the rear wishbone which you can see jutting out below.

Removing the metal above it means I can see down into it. Shit photo as it's cramped.

It's pretty grotty inside and out, and isn't a simple construction.

Now this is where I have to take a step back and wonder if I'm in too deep.

I don't have the skill to fabricate this part and finding a clean replacement and swapping it over, presumably fucking up the alignment, seems beyond my ability at this point.

It's pretty heavy gauge, but I think I'd always have this at the back of my mind whilst driving unless it was 100% right.

Thoughts?

[Talbot]

Heavy gauge, yes, but there looks to have been a fair amount of thinning of the material.  It would be worth finding out if those mountings are available from anywhere.  Getting the alignment right isn't so difficult, as you could make up a small template for where the bolt holes are now compared to the other side and just weld on the new mount to suit.

What concerns me more is the massive amount of body corrosion under there.  Is it just as bad within the box sections for the rear floor area?  Even if you weld all this up now, will it rot out again within a couple of years due to bits you cannot get to?  There seems to be a lot of double-skinning in places, which is terrible for corrosion resistance.

Anything that is bolt-on isn't a concern, it's the underlying structure of the car that matters most.  You've done bloody well to get this far, make sure you find everything.  A small USB endoscope for your phone might be useful to look in through drain holes to see how bad things are in the box sections.

However.  If the mountings are shot and aren't available, I would suggest that might be the tipping point.  Sills, inner arches and sheet steel is one thing, but re-making mountings is complex, especially when they are complex curvature like these are rather than just flat material.

 

I would be very tempted to beg/borrow/steal a compressor from somewhere and use a needle gun on everything:

They are noisy as fuck, but remove all the rot, right back down to good steel.  You might be a bit surprised how much more rot comes off.

[meggersdog]

Using one of them ^^^ you would be sweeping the whole car up into a dust-pan

[Talbot]

Just looked again and spotted those mounts in the "overall" picture further up.  They look like they are part of the box-section structure of the back of the car, or can I see that they are actually welded over the top of the box section?

In order to fit new mounts, or to even consider cleaning these ones up and protecting them, do you have access to all the spot-welds that hold the bracket on?  Drilling out the spotwelds and removing the section might be the only way forward here.

[juular]

I am sure they are welded on top of the box section. I will get onto it with the knot wheel and flap grinder and see if I can see the spot welds. 

The box sections are ok from what I could see. I cut the end off them where the crash bar mounts, as I needed to weld new studs in to take a replacement crash bar, the old ones were shot. I had a good look in with a light and camera and was surprised how clean they looked.

There's nothing to lose here as the car will be getting dragged onto a flatbed if I can't sort the mounts. I've invested nothing but tools and steel that will get reused.

[Split_Pin]

Gee-wizz man that is a lot of rust, fair play to you there.

Regarding the complex suspension mount.

As an example, at present my Corsa has rotten front strut tops but there is a guy scrapping one who has just cut me off each side on his which are in excellent nick.  Not cheap at £40 posted but this way I have a good chance of getting someone who knows what they are doing to do a straightforward, if involved, replacement. The thing is though, its a localised bit of rot due to a mud trap and everywhere around it is in good condition. Once this is fixed I am comfortable that it's going to last. 

I guess you have to ask yourself a similar question perhaps.

[captain_70s]

HO-LEE FOOK... I take back about it being like my Dolly 1850, that wasn't as rusty as this... 

It does look like the rust has taken hold in areas where mud could get flung up behind the rear suspension and not easily be washed off with road spray, unfortunately that area seems to cover the entire arse end of the car, that level of double skinning also looks horrendous. 

I'd go hammer and chisel on it and see what survives. I reckon those wishbone mounts are thick enough steel that even if they have lost some of their thickness the bigger risk would be them tearing off the box section above due to rot in there.

[rusty_vw_man]

1 hour ago, captain_70s said:

d go hammer and chisel on it and see what survives

I’d second this suggestion from @captain_70s . 

I’ve had my fair share of things that look like this. A knotted wheel makes it look clean and shiny, but a 5lb club hammer does a better job of checking structural capacity of key bits. 

[Dick Longbridge]

How much do you actually like the car?

Are you a masochist? Do you have the patience of a saint? Do you have endless spare time on your hands? 

If yes, get it welded!

 

[somewhatfoolish]

7 hours ago, Talbot said:

I would be very tempted to beg/borrow/steal a compressor from somewhere and use a needle gun on everything:

They are noisy as fuck, but remove all the rot, right back down to good steel.  You might be a bit surprised how much more rot comes off.

Using one of these on sheet metal will quickly end in it being a funny shape; ask me how I know. Pickling in acid, electrolytic cleaning or blasting of some kind is the way to get the fiddly or inaccessible-to-knotwheel bits clean.

[juular]

1 hour ago, somewhatfoolish said:

Using one of these on sheet metal will quickly end in it being a funny shape; ask me how I know. Pickling in acid, electrolytic cleaning or blasting of some kind is the way to get the fiddly or inaccessible-to-knotwheel bits clean.

I did consider removing the mounts and pickling them in hot citric acid. Ive got a tank with an aquarium heater set up for this as I was going to steep the brake back plates, hubs etc before zinc painting.

Viable way forward?

[somewhatfoolish]

Given you're cutting bits off anyway removing the mounts and pickling or electro cleaning doesn't seem like much extra effort; a bonus is that once rusty but sound steel is cleaned this way the surface is almost porous and paint sticks really well.

[overrun]

#sierramansays...

[Talbot]

2 hours ago, somewhatfoolish said:

Using one of these on sheet metal will quickly end in it being a funny shape; ask me how I know. Pickling in acid, electrolytic cleaning or blasting of some kind is the way to get the fiddly or inaccessible-to-knotwheel bits clean.

Then you need to back it off a bit!  They are adjustable in their severity of attack.

[J-T]

This may not quite be in the spirit of the site etc, but why are you doing this? If you like them, just buy a better one. They’re not particularly rare and if it’s so you can learn how to weld, I’m sure the vast majority of them would benefit from some sparkly action by now, but without favoring cornflakes from front to back. It looks like it’s been used to warn fishermen where the rocks are man!

[vaughant]

I have a 2005 Avensis and my son a 2004 and I can honestly say that's not a spot of rust underneath on either of them,in fact I've never seen a Toyota rot, i cant see how that's got so bad unless it's been literally stored in salt water. I know Scotland is hard on cars but that's beyond a joke. 

I once scrapped a sierra cosworth in better nick than that as the headaches it was causing plus the cost of doing it just to end up with a welded up cossie. I bought a mint cossie shell and swapped the bits over. Actually it was a complete car really minus running gear, no rust anywhere. Ok is not my original car which was the highly rare ebony colour with aircon but at least its totally solid and should last forever more, when I actually get round to finishing it!!!! 

Not being horrible or defeatist but you will be forever doing that and I alkmaar guarantee you'll give up at some point. To put 2 years into that is madness. I used to see loads of these in the scrappy as I believe they had engine issues? Surely there is a straight one out there with a blown motor? Be a much nicer project to do and you'd get it all swapped over in less time in sure. 

In truth, your dad sounds like a good guy but if he hadn't bought that welder set up and you did yourself, that's the thick end of £600 by there beefier you start, probably 1/2 way to a mint example of one of those. 

I changed a gearbox and clutch in one once and found it not a bad car to work on, certainly agree about the driving position etc, very nice. You could strip one of those without a ramp in a few days max, have a ton of spares and a good shell. 

[Shite Ron]

20 hours ago, juular said:

Now this is where I have to take a step back and wonder if I'm in too deep.

I don't have the skill to fabricate this part and finding a clean replacement and swapping it over, presumably fucking up the alignment, seems beyond my ability at this point.

It's pretty heavy gauge, but I think I'd always have this at the back of my mind whilst driving unless it was 100% right.

Thoughts?

I replaced a chassis rail on one of my Cortina’s years ago. I cut up a length of angle iron ( about 2.5 mm thick, 25x25mm). to make a small jig, tack welded to a few solid areas of the car, cut sleeves where each suspension mounting bolt was, bolted the sleeves to each mounting point then welded the angle iron to the sleeves. Once I was sure the frame was solid I removed the bolts, cut the Chassis away, slid the replacement (cut from a scrap car) into place, replaced all bolts and welded it up. As I had no previous experience of body repairs I asked a friend to come and look at what I had done before I started welding and he said they did not repair new BMW and Mercedes to the same tolerances at the body shop he worked in. I then took the car to a local public test track just after midnight, took it to just over 100 mph with no other cars around, took my hands off the steering wheel and rammed the brakes on. The car slowed rapidly and in a straight line?. I was happy with that. 
This was a car that cost me £180. Many people did not understand why I always kept old worthless cars going, but if you like the car and do not intend selling it then keep at it, you will learn new skills, have a great sense of achievement at the end and a car that you can enjoy owning and driving with confidence because you will know it inside out.

Just for clarity, I recommend making a basic jig to ensure all suspension is correctly aligned, I do not recommend my method of testing afterwards.

Most importantly, only you can say if this car is worth doing. It is certainly possible!

[tul66]

Jesus, that's grim. I scrapped my daily 1990 Lancia Thema in Feb 2019 due to the rust. It was nowhere near that bad!

Italian cars eh; rust buckets

[juular]

15 hours ago, Shite Ron said:

I replaced a chassis rail on one of my Cortina’s years ago. I cut up a length of angle iron ( about 2.5 mm thick, 25x25mm). to make a small jig, tack welded to a few solid areas of the car, cut sleeves where each suspension mounting bolt was, bolted the sleeves to each mounting point then welded the angle iron to the sleeves. Once I was sure the frame was solid I removed the bolts, cut the Chassis away, slid the replacement (cut from a scrap car) into place, replaced all bolts and welded it up. As I had no previous experience of body repairs I asked a friend to come and look at what I had done before I started welding and he said they did not repair new BMW and Mercedes to the same tolerances at the body shop he worked in. I then took the car to a local public test track just after midnight, took it to just over 100 mph with no other cars around, took my hands off the steering wheel and rammed the brakes on. The car slowed rapidly and in a straight line?. I was happy with that. 
This was a car that cost me £180. Many people did not understand why I always kept old worthless cars going, but if you like the car and do not intend selling it then keep at it, you will learn new skills, have a great sense of achievement at the end and a car that you can enjoy owning and driving with confidence because you will know it inside out.

I think this post embodies the spirit of autoshite strongly and I fully endorse it.

Why am I doing this?

Who knows. Sometimes when you can, you should. Why do people build clones of 80s computers, cross stitch, or collect models? Ultimately the value in something is what you decide it is. Everything is just finding ways of wasting time and money in trade for knowledge.

I can absolutely buy another one tomorrow with less issues for less money that it would cost to fix this one - might still happen. Plan currently is to see if I can find the spot welds. If I can, I'll pick up some angle and make up a jig. If not, it's off to become razor blades and bean cans. 

Saying that the last 6 cars I've looked at have been worse than this. It must be a combination of the shape of the underside, the double skinning, and the Scottish roads. 

Anyone know if the gen 6 celicas suffer similar issues? I like those too.

[Uncle Jimmy]

I recognise a little of you in the me of 15 or 20 years ago; no loss in admitting you've bitten off a little more than you can chew.

Call it a day, take what you've learnt and invest your time and effort in a car that will repay you. Do you deserve that millstone around your neck?

[Uncle Jimmy]

Incidentally, I owned a '94 Toyota Levin a few years ago, no rot in it whatsoever, it was a fantastic car from the time when Toyota were the best car maker in the world.  Put it up on here at a bargain price, naturally no bugger took any interest.