Sold Stanky's Geep - fire sale

[mitsisigma01]

Must be an early Hi tech immobiliser hidden somewhere ..... mmm maybe not . Don't think there's anything Hi tech on the Geep . Back to square one

[Soap Distant]

Yes you need power in to the coil from the ignition switch. The points should be switching the earth from the coil making the field inside the coil to collapse and induce a nice juicy spark out of the to to be distributed to the spark plugs via the , erm, distributor.

[mk2_craig]

Yellow and black wire - is that not the 12v feed from the ignition switch to the coil positive terminal? Low tension as opposed to the high tension "king lead" you have going between coil and dizzy cap. Come to think of it, have you any wire(s) going from the engine bay loom to the distributor itself?

Further to the above, where is the resistor wire in all this?

[Zelandeth]

If there's nothing connected to the + terminal of the coil you're not going to get anywhere.

 

I'd connect that black & yellow wire to any ignition switched source of 12V - or FOR TESTING purposes ONLY, jump it straight to the battery.  Note that due to the lack of a fuse that this should only be done to ascertain "yes it works" and immediately be removed to prevent any risk of fire if something shorts out.

 

Your coil needs three connections.

 

12V to the + side.

 

- (or sometimes labelled CB) goes to the distributor (and is what's switched by the points).

 

King lead obviously goes to the distributor cap.

 

If there's a ballast resistor involved sometimes you'll have more wires than that (at least two on the positive side), usually a ballasted feed for normal running, and a direct 12V feed during engine cranking.

 

If your HT leads are in the wrong order it will be pretty rapidly obvious as you'll get all manner of pops, bangs and flames out the top of the carb. 

[Guest Hooli]

Yup, as above. Put 12v direct from the battery to the positive side of the coil for testing. It should then start if all is good, and you'll need to sort the power switched power supply via the ignition switch.

[dollywobbler]

What they said. A direct feed will be fine for testing. Don't leave it connected for any longer than a couple of minutes though.

[DeeJay]

Ask your neighbour to hold the (metal) end of the ht lead while you turn it over, that will wake the dozy bugger up.

[Stanky]

Thanks all - I understand now I think!

 

So, all it has to run on is the contents of the float bowl - the tank is empty though the fuel pump does work.

 

If I run 12v from the positive terminal of the battery to the positive side of the coil (so permanent 12v) and then try cranking it over we reckon a spark might be delivered to where it ought to go, at the correct time?

 

I'll crack on with this in the morning now, updates to follow. Thanks for all the patience explaining electronics off the 70s to a mechanical idiot!

[Zelandeth]

It should work!

 

It'll either run, try to run, or if the timing is massively out backfire and carry on in a "the sparks are at the wrong time" way that is pretty obvious.

[Guest Hooli]

Correct.

 

The way a coil works is it produces an electromagnetic field in the 12v coil, then when the power is cut (by the points opening in this case) the field collapses which induces a voltage in the primary coil which fires off down the king lead,

[stonedagain]

That black & yellow wire looks like the positive wire to the coil, judging by the rubber terminal cover.

[mitsisigma01]

Get your neighbour ready with the extinguisher, I expect Geeps go up quite quickly

[Zelandeth]

Speaking of fire prevention...please get a cover on that positive terminal of the battery.  It's *way* too close to that metal crossbar for comfort.

[meggersdog]

Don't know if it's been suggested before but have you actually checked the points ?.You just need a thin flat blade screwdriver.Ignition on,distributor cap off, make sure the points are closed then manually open and close the points with the screwdriver between the distributor post and the plastic shoulder of the points.You should be able to see little sparks between the contacts as they part.If there are little sparks you can check the king lead by opening and closing the points with one hand(on the screwdriver) and hold the king lead close to a rocker cover bolt with the other.There should be a single spark.

[danthecapriman]

One suggestion...

 

Your coil is on the opposite side of the engine bay to that 'unknown' wire with the black push on connector from memory?

 

If it is on the opposite side of the engine bay then I'd suggest it's highly unlikely to be for the coil.

These old Fords use a very similar style wire and connector to your 'unknown' wire for the oil pressure switch (usually looks like a bold/nut head wound into the side of the engine block and has a post style connector in its centre which that wire might push onto.

Or

Similarly they have a temperature sender with the same style electrical connector. This is a bit smaller than the oil one and is often screwed into the cylinder head somewhere.

 

My Capri has these and uses that exact style of wire and that type of end on that same side of the engine bay!

Worth checking if your oil pressure sender and temp sender are present and if they already have a wire connected as that's what the 'unknown' wire looks like to me. It'd be a bit odd if it was for the coil yet be on the opposite side to the coil!

[Stanky]

Its a funny angle - there is at least 4" between the chassis and the battery terminal, though i will get a plastic cover for it in due course. At the moment none of the batteries get left on there, they go back onto fast charge as soon as I've flattened them.

 

 

Then i connected up a screwdriver end to the rubber capped bit on the mystery wire and mole gripped it to the battery positive terminal

 

 

had a slug of tea

 

 

and turned they key, it chugged over but didn't fire again. AAAAARGH!

 

Then I had a look and changed the connections over on the terminals of the coil in case that was backwards. Still no joy.

 

Next I popped off the king lead from the coil, jammed the bit of metal in the end and got my daughter to turn the key while I checked to see if it sparked against the manifold. It didn't.

 

Bother bother BOTHER.

 

I also tried the other (old) coil in case I'd fried Dan's one, but still nothing - just chugs over and no spark is produced.

 

What should I look at next?

[meggersdog]

Mk 2 Escorts had an anti run on valve bolted to the inner wing . If the wiring loom is Ford Escort your unknown wire could be for this.Unless you have this valve piped into the inlet it won't stop it starting.

[Slowsilver]

Forget this wire for now.

Do as suggested.

Check that there is an intact wire from the - terminal of the coli to the points in the distributor. If not, fit one.

Connect a temporary wire directly from the positive battery terminal to the + terminal on the coil.

Crank engine and check for spark at king lead.

[danthecapriman]

Forget this wire for now.

Do as suggested.

Check that there is an intact wire from the - terminal of the coli to the points in the distributor. If not, fit one.

Connect a temporary wire directly from the positive battery terminal to the + terminal on the coil.

Crank engine and check for spark at king lead.

This.

 

I really think that unknown wire is completely unrelated and leading you down the wrong way.

If your connected up to the points properly on one wire and run a new direct + feed from your good battery to the coil then you should be getting a spark somewhere, even if it's a shitty one at the points.

[Stanky]

Thanks chaps - I'll go and have a play now. Presumably a bit of household black & red wire will be adequate as it carries a low current?

[danthecapriman]

Thanks chaps - I'll go and have a play now. Presumably a bit of household black & red wire will be adequate as it carries a low current?

Pretty much any wire should do for a quick test. The low tension wires already on the cars loom aren't anything particularly big! Something similarly sized should be fine.

[Skizzer]

Are you sure your batteries aren’t shagged? It sounds like they’re going flat very quickly. May be worth checking they have enough amps left in them to start some other car you know to be working.

[wuvvum]

In my experience Crossflows, like A serieseses, take a surprising amount of turning over for such a small engine.

[Stanky]

Skizzer - quite possibly. I shall try nicking the massively overpowered 540CCA one from the Yaris tomorrow and see if that gives better results.

[dollywobbler]

Another car with some jump leads might be even better still. That's what I used to get the Invacar fired up. For a start, it raises the voltage by a couple of volts. Might just make the difference.

[twosmoke300]

Have you put a permanent 12v supply to the coil positive yet ? You could put 1000cca battery on it but if the coil isn't powered up you will get zilch

[Stanky]

Ah sorry yes - 12v perm supply from the +ve battery terminal to the +ve coil terminal, I tried two wires - one earth wire from something held in with mole grips at the battery end and wrapped round the coil terminal then clamped with a nut, and a completely different wire with an eyelet on the coil end (and clamped with a nut) and mole grip treatment on the battery end.

 

Neither produced a spark from the king lead when hung just above the manifold which is clean, shiny metal.

[Jimbo]

I would

1, install a temp +12v feed to the coil + terminal

2, connect a fly lead to the coil-

3, with the king lead laying on something metal and earthed dab the fly lead onto the chassis and remove, you should get a spark, if not king lead or coil no good. The spark will jump a good 1/2 inch if all ok.

4, if sparking check points and condenser by reconnecting to coil - and flicking the point open with a screwdriver without shorting the two contacts out. With the king lead as above.

 

Whatever you issue is it's going to be really simple to fix once identified.

 

Good luck.

[jonny69]

Right, I'm good with crossflows. I've had a lot of them over the years. They aren't difficult to get started but there are a few basics.

 

1. You NEED a good battery. It won't start if you can only crank it for a few seconds before it starts to go flat because the ignition system is too basic to be able to deal with the loss of just 1.5 to 2 volts. Time and again I've struggled with this. Get a new battery (e.g. 038 size from Halfords) and back it up with jump leads or a good jump pack.

 

2. Check the points are definitely opening and definitely fully closing. Get a piece of fine wet and dry and lightly clean both pads on the points. They MUST be making a good connection.

 

3. The engine will start with a crappy condenser. It won't drive well but it will usually start. Worry about that later.

 

4. Inside the distributor cap, clean terminal on the rotor arm. Scrape it clean with a screwdriver. Do the same with the HT terminals in the cap, back to clean metal. Check the central carbon terminal is in there.

 

5. +12v from the ignition switch goes to the + terminal on the coil. The - terminal goes to the tag on the distributor.

 

At this point, pull the HT lead out the coil. If you turn the engine over at this point, you'll see a fairly scary looking spark jumping out the coil onto the - terminal. Even with a shit coil, you'll see this. You now need to get that spark through to the plugs.

 

6. Clean all the plug terminals in the cap and coil back to bright metal. Those HT leads look a bit old and ideally should be replaced, but clean the terminals up and it ought to get you going. Check the plug terminals click all the way down the holes in the cap and coil and make contact. Bend them out a bit if necessary.

 

7. Wire brush the plugs back to bright-ish metal and nip up the aluminium tops with a pair of pliers.

 

8. With the plugs out the engine and inserted in the leads, if you ground them and turn the engine over, you should see them each spark.

 

9. Firing order is 1243. Distributor turns anti-clockwise. If it has been assembled correctly, no.1 plug lead is usually top right. Working anti-clockwise from there is 2, 4 and 3. If you are in doubt about the position of no.1, as said earlier, put you finger over plug hole 1 and turn the engine over by hand until you feel no.1 pressure up. This is the compression stroke and the rotor arm will be at the position of plug 1 at top dead centre. 2, 4 and 3 simply follow anti-clockwise of 1 no matter where it is.

 

Connect it all up and it should splutter into life if you squirt a bit of fresh petrol down the hole. It will take some nursing to get it to idle and run properly after this, because those carbs get gummed up when they have been standing.

[twosmoke300]

^^^ what he said .

 

Funny I forgot these had a different firing order to most 4 cyl stuff