project 1979 Triumph Spitfire! (For Sale)

[N Dentressangle]

I never worked out what those extra lights were for either. Definitely a good prune in order for the wiring!

[Matty]

8 minutes ago, N Dentressangle said:

I never worked out what those extra lights were for either. Definitely a good prune in order for the wiring!

I had a lad I know have a few hours on mine cos I was lacking time (bollocks, confidence 😆). The sheer amount of redundant cabling and scotch locks he ripped out and threw away was impressive!

[SiC]

Actually thinking about it, I wonder if that switch was for a rear fog light and hence the spare wires in the boot. Then one of the dash lights was an indicator for the rear fog. 

Then perhaps another is an indicator for the electric fan and the other for hazards. 

[N Dentressangle]

29 minutes ago, SiC said:

Actually thinking about it, I wonder if that switch was for a rear fog light and hence the spare wires in the boot. Then one of the dash lights was an indicator for the rear fog. 

Then perhaps another is an indicator for the electric fan and the other for hazards. 

Yes, I had the switch down as a probable fog light switch.

The hazard switch itself should flash when operated, so doubt if the extras are for those, and they look too old to go with the electric fan setup.

[High Jetter]

Hazards were original, suspect rear fog wasn't, deffo not fan.

[mercedade]

15 hours ago, SiC said:

 No fun driving a RWD classic sports car in the wet.

Exactly. And some supermodels are just too beautiful, right?

[SiC]

Went to a local meet tonight and the first time I had a chance to really drive it in anger. Yes this rattles more than a toolbox, flexes more than a soggy shoebox, a roof like a toupee, darts around like squirrel and has as much refinement as a horse carriage with every bump transmitting through your arse. But the drive there was absolutely A*. Thoroughly enjoyed myself. The Rover P4 is such a superior built car but this ramshackle bunch of parts is so much more me. I don't regret the change.

Before setting off I needed to tend to a few things. Felt weird that the car pretty much sorted after I keep buying broken things. It almost felt I needed to fix something.

Anyway ND warned me that the fan was playing up. I had a look around and it seemed to work okay when I turned the temperature control. I did find this crimp that had been a bit through the wars. I replaced it with one that I can connect the other to easily. This allows me to short out the switch and let it run constantly easily.



The thermostat switch runs through a relay. At the moment it's just dangling about and was naked. So I wrapped insulating tape around it for now. I plan to rewire all this so I can put an override switch in. But I may remove the thermostat completely if it continues to play up. Then put a mechanical fan on with a switch under the dash to allow the electric fan to run if things get too toasty in slow traffic. The fans would be offset so may work quite well.


In the event, on the drive back home the temperature gauge started to creep up and not stop. I pulled over and turned the thermostat switch to nearly minimum and the electric fan kicked in. I set it to 70c (was 85c) and it seems to be cutting in/out at the mid point now. I definitely do not have a huge amount of trust in this thermostat switch.


It's been sitting outside for the last few days and it's been throwing it down. Not unexpectedly the footwell had a pond in it.


The Dolomite is going up to storage in a few weeks and then I can use the space in the garage to store the BGT or this out of the elements and swap it around when I want to.

Decided to drop the roof. First attempt went very wrong.


I had to go in for tea anyway so I read the manual over food. Then tried again. I don't think I got it quite right as I basically shoved the detached roof behind the seats. Worked good enough to go out with the hood down though.


Put £20 of petrol in (took it to half way) and then went for a drive up to the meet.

[SiC]

I've been to this meet before but this time there seemed to be a good selection of different cars.




This RS2000 had cracked filler on the side panel. Bet it looks like my Dolomite under that paint.


This Mini was missing a lot of the interior and looked a half finished project. In some ways this is why the MOT exemption is good as it allows this out even if strictly speaking it possibly shouldn't be.


A lot of Fords




The black Capri had this under the bonnet


A mix of moderns. I wouldn't kick any of these out of my garage tbh.



The new Lotus is very nice and I hope it does them well.


Quite a few Triumphs



Some modern classics





Then of course my wobbly carriage


Apart from the electric fan thermostat not playing ball, the trip was pretty uneventful. The car does have a few issues but nothing pressing to sort. Hold the clutch down and you'll get a squeal. Suspicion is on the release bearing. It's not that old as the clutch was done recently. But then modern repro parts are shite as we all know. I don't think it's the thrust bearing - I'd expect revs to change?
Speaking of which, the idle is a bit all over the place. Sometimes fine and sometimes too low. A light press and release on the pedal brings it back. I suspect the linkage is a bit sticky.

Both things don't really need sorting as I can work around it. Don't hold the clutch down when stationary and a dab of throttle when the revs do drop a bit too low. Maybe even tweak up the idle a tad.

[mk2_craig]

14 minutes ago, SiC said:

This Mini was missing a lot of the interior and looked a half finished project. In some ways this is why the MOT exemption is good as it allows this out even if strictly speaking it possibly shouldn't be.

 

Except its not exempt!! Late 1980s Mini that somebody has stuck a Clubman front onto.

[adw1977]

Lack of interior doesn't make it unroadworthy, surely?  As long as the driver's seat is secure and has a functioning seat belt, what else do you really need?

Assuming of course that the speedometer and controls are present!

[Christine]

No drivers door  mirror ... mot fail

[SiC]

I didn't look too closely at the reg. Just saw it had a clubman front end. I'd say possibly ringer but I'd have thought they'd not gone newer! Rusted and dented front would make me surprised if it was a recent modification.

[N Dentressangle]

That thermostat switch is £10ish of finest Chinesium. Purchase was a triumph (geddit?) of hope over experience. Your plan sounds MUCH better.

The hood fit is a bit TADTS. I think it could be improved - I didn't fit it - but the window seals will always be crap because BL. When I got the car, the back rail was missing, and I fitted the new one wrongly. The hood is supposed to be glued down to the rail then male press studs fitted into the hood. This is so you can fold down the hood then use a hood cover or tonneau.

Folding the hood is shown in a few YT vids - you basically lift the centre part and fold it back over the boot, then fold the lot behind you into the space. Easier shown on a vid.

Believe it or now, your Spit is rigid and rattle free compared with others I've driven! Good job you never drove it as I got it, missing the dash support, steering column brace and lower column bush 😉

[Mally]

Clutch squeal.

I'm not sure if these have a needle roller bearing or oilite/bronze bush in the end of the crank for the gearbox spigot, but I once had a Vauxhall that needed a slight dab of grease on the end of the gearbox shaft because the bush was dry.

[Noel Tidybeard]

20 hours ago, SiC said:

In the event, on the drive back home the temperature gauge started to creep up and not stop. I pulled over and turned the thermostat switch to nearly minimum and the electric fan kicked in. I set it to 70c (was 85c) and it seems to be cutting in/out at the mid point now. I definitely do not have a huge amount of trust in this thermostat switch.

 

this is too low for a fan to cut in- thermostat opens at 88- so normal at around 90/92 fan needs to be 102ish

needs moar accurate temp readings than an old smiths gauge before sacking the relay etc off

[SiC]

this is too low for a fan to cut in- thermostat opens at 88- so normal at around 90/92 fan needs to be 102ish
needs moar accurate temp readings than an old smiths gauge before sacking the relay etc off

You're assuming the thermostat switch is accurate. I'm making the assumption it's not! The electric Smith's gauge is very likely more accurate than the switch now.

I expect the thermostat switch to get progressively more inaccurate as it fails.

[Noel Tidybeard]

i'm assuming the spit has very tired loom smoke🤣

[SiC]

The curse of Mrs SiC and my cars...
It's why my watch goes "You seem stressed at the moment. Try some breathing and relaxation exercises." when she's in it.

We decided to have a walk along the seafront this evening. As it was a nice day I thought it would be a good time to take the Spitty and also a chance for Mrs SiC to experience it. Yesterday I ran for a good 30 mile or so trip absolutely fine and I had faith.

Tonight it started fine as usual. Drove along and was a bit juddery so pulled the choke out a bit more which eased it off. Further along the journey I started to push it in but it didn't particularly like it. Still not as smooth as it was driving yesterday.

I mentioned to Mrs SiC that it seems a bit unhappy and didn't feel quite right. She asked if we should go back. I agreed. We'd only done a few miles at this point.

I realised that the overdrive was engaged with switch in the position for it to be disengaged and the engine was unhappy about being laboured. That said it was running around 1.5k rpm so should have been alright. But also it was the first time I took it out with the roof up. Certainly a lot noiser and different experience which gave a certain level of unfamiliarity.

Then the overdrive decided to disengage. Fine. I can deal with that.

Then it engaged again

Disengaged

Engaged

Disengaged

Engaged

Disengaged

All in the space of a few seconds

Then decided it did want to be engaged after all and stay like that.

I should point out that I fully knew the overdrive did have a habit of getting stuck when I bought it and I should really have fixed it rather than just ignoring it. All the fun of a 70s BL product. ND traced it down as a likely issue with the wiring to the switch. All the time previously it would be either in OD or out. Not pulse between the two like it has started doing. Anyway we got it back and it'll be something to properly sort as I can't ignore it really.

So jumped in the Boxster instead.

Missed the start of the sunset but still had a pretty view out over Wales.


I've got a chunk of time this weekend. I plan to give the wiring a good going over. Old British cars can be fun with the wiring at the best of times, let alone mucked around wiring making it even worse. I'll also double check the tuning on the carbs in case they've rattled themselves out of tune.

I'll also be very glad when I can get it in the garage. The roof can stay down permanently then. I may even get a tonneau cover. Also reaffirms that I'm not even going to bother refitting the hood on the Midget.

[SiC]

My (temporary) fix for the speedo inaccuracies. £15 delivered first thing today by Bezo finest. Uses GPS for speed so should be pretty much spot on and a good reference when going through speed cameras.


At the moment it uses a 5v USB cigarette lighter adapter. I'd like to do away with this and wire it directly into the car power. Cracking open the rear lid shows that it has a 5v regulator on the input. This is a bit weird as 5v input on a 5v regulator will lead to drop out down to ~3.9v. Then it looks to have a further regulator to pull it down to 3.3v. I suspect this is because some modern adapters may put out 9v or more if in "smart charge" mode and a cheap one may not be that clever and dump it out. So saves it breaking. Anyway it means I should be able to chop out the usb socket and stick 12v straight in hopefully.


Speaking of inaccurate speedos, overdrive and gearboxes, I dug through the old pictures of when the chap before ND had the box out. MK4 had a different (higher) ratio rear diff to the 1500. This is why I suspect the speedo is out. While flicking through a Haynes earlier, it struck me that this could be a D-Type overdrive. The 1500 had only J-Type but the Mk4 had both D-Type and J-Type depending on year (and probably BL inventory). This would be significant as the D-Type uses a relay to drive the overdrive solenoid but the J-Type doesn't need one. Thoughts revolved around it not having a relay and burning out the switch.

Alas according to the TCCS Facebook page, it's a J-Type as the solenoid is on the left.



I'm still pretty sure it has an overdrive from a MK4 and not a 1500. That said I believe the gearbox on a MK4 has the reverse on the left. While this has a reverse on the right which is correct for a 1500.

Also going through the photos confirms this once did have rear fog lights. Curiously a towbar too. Explains some of the mess of wiring in the car.

[SiC]

At lunch I thought I'd have a 10 minute look at this overdrive switch to see if anything obvious is wrong.

First thing I noticed was excess flash in the switch section at the top near the wording of IN. I cut it off to make square.


Checking the switch with a multimeter showed that it did switch on and off. However I did find that you could get it indicated in the off position but still have electrical contact across the switch. If you push a bit harder then it'll latch across. This would make sense if it was hitting that excess flashing at the top and not quite clicking off to disengage.


The crimps on the bottom looked a bit suspect. They were holding the wire but did have exposed copper around the clamping area of the crimp. This could work harden and snap off eventually.


I put heatshrink on the bottom to provide support across the crimp. This also had the advantage of making sure they won't short against the gear knob base.


The external covering was split further down the overdrive wire but I couldn't see it gone through to the insulation of the wires below. I'll leave this pulled out slightly so it doesn't chaff through completely. Also put some insulation tape over to further protect it.


Then went off to grab some lunch. Used the GPS Speedo display and it worked great. It did take 30 seconds or so to get a GPS lock upon power on but it updated regularly and was easy to read. The car speedo pretty much reads 10% out. Something I will have to figure how I'm going to sort.


The drive to the local chippy was uneventful. Overdrive was behaving correctly.
I'm not sure if I can call it fixed until the missus is back in and her car voodoo breaks it again.


Lunch was a typical 70s Triumph owners meal. Brown. Very brown. I think the Heinz tomato sauce was the healthiest thing. I'll have to try harder at the gym later to work that lot off.


I need to tweak the idle a bit. It drops off pretty low if you stab/release the accelerator pedal. In some cases almost stalling the engine. Light presses make the friction of the linkage/cable hold the revs up every so slightly but a sharp stab brings it back to the real minimum. Par for course on old carb engined vehicles with accelerator cables ime. But I like to have the revs slightly higher as an absolute baseline minimum.

The cooling fan kicked in just as I started to make this video. It's quite a noisy thing but at least it makes you well aware when it's active.

[SiC]

Took this for another spin tonight, this time to the gym. However I decided to tweak up the idle a tad just to stop it bogging down when letting off the accelerator.

Ended up cocking that up as I turned the wrong way on one side and then subsequently forgot how much I turned it. So whipped off the air cleaners and balanced the carbs. Usually I'd just have grabbed another car (first world problems) but the access on this is so good that it's easy enough to whizz off the air cleaner in a few seconds.



With that done, I revved up to see what was causing it to drop down. The linkage seems perfectly fine and the butterfly valves return back to the same position (as best as an old SU can do that is). Both carbs seem about right on the mixture when lifting the carb piston. I tried richening up the front carb a one flat as that seemed a smidge lean. It helped but still didn't solve the problem.

 

I was racking my brain on what could be causing this. The carb seemed absolutely fine as it does sort itself out if the revs don't drop too far to cause it to stall.

Then I remembered. I lifted the piston up to see this.


What you're looking at is the butterfly valve of the carb. The metal spring thing at the bottom is a poppet valve. Exactly the same thing as I had on my MGB GT and I remember now having a similar issue.

In typical make do and mend/bodge attitude of the British Motor industry in the 70s, this poppet valve was to reduce emissions on over run so they could continue to get carbs to pass the latest emissions regs. A bit like the wax stats on the jets that ND removed on his thread with this car.

When you suddenly ease off the throttle, the mixture behind the valve doesn't suddenly weaken from the reduced airflow. The airflow suddenly drops back but the inertia of the fuel from the needle (controlled by the piston & needle) causes a rich mixture. This leads to an excess of hydrocarbons.

The idea of the poppet valve is to allow additional air for this rich mixture to burn off. Nice idea in theory and kinda worked when new but as the springs age, they lose their effectiveness. Over time they actually end up becoming a constant air leak through that butterfly valve.

To be fair, everyone was grappling with lower emissions targets at the time and were hamstrung on how far they could go with carbs. The Americans had a lot more money to throw at this for R&D and came up with more complex carbs. Ultimately the solution was fuel injection but the cost and intelligence of that needed to improve. Only when fuel injection went fully electronic could fuel be metered correctly in all operation states.

As a side note, even on a modern car, when you let off the accelerator to change gear, you may see the revs rise. What the ECU is doing here is to leave the throttle valve open for a bit longer to allow the air fuel mix to weaken even more. Only with direct injection, with fuel being metered into the combustion chamber very accurately on each alternative stroke, is this less of a necessity.

Anyway the solution to this butterfly poppet valve issue is to remove or replace them. Some solder them shut but that still leaves a restriction through the carb with that spring mechanism in the way. An alternative is to use an older design butterfly valve without the poppet. That's what I did with my BGT.

But if I'm doing that, I feel inclined to rebuild/service the carbs. Not a hard job but it does take a few hours and I need to order a kit for it.

It doesn't stop the car being used and isn't too much of an issue if you let off when driving. I just have to be aware that if I rev the engine and let off (e.g. going to pull out of a junction onto a main road then bail out as someone is steaming along), then I may have to catch the revs dropping too far with the accelerator.

I'll fix it in due course but I want to keep this road ready! That just means doing any absolute essentials that either would damage the car if I leave or stops it proceeding. Plus I have spent too much this month and don't want to spend any more! It will help when the Dolomite is in storage later this month and I can do work like this on the Spitty in the garage. I could do with pulling out the BGT as I've not used it at all this year.

I can also keep the hood down permanently then. Tbh it doesn't seal the best and unlikely ever to! At least not good enough to stay reasonably dry in a heavy rain shower with it left outside.


Anyhow after all that, I drove it to the gym. Burnt 719 calories - probably about what the whole Easter Egg I consumed after lunch. 🤣🫣

 

 

[N Dentressangle]

Great to see you working through the niggles! Spotting the overdrive switch flash is great - that will be the problem.

I had forgotten all about butterfly poppets, if I ever knew about them in the first place. I knew I'd balanced the carbs properly, and the mixture was OK, so couldn't understand what caused the shut throttle stumble. Good find!

 

[Vimesy]

When my Spitfire is out of the garage (most of the time), being subjected to our slightly damp climate, I leave it with the floppy roof overlapping the door windows on the outside - as per photo.

I've never had any major leaks that way.....it works for me. Obviously, you do then need to pop the quarter fastenings to open the door - no great hardship 'tho.

 

 

[SiC]

8 hours ago, Vimesy said:

When my Spitfire is out of the garage (most of the time), being subjected to our slightly damp climate, I leave it with the floppy roof overlapping the door windows on the outside - as per photo.

I've never had any major leaks that way.....it works for me. Obviously, you do then need to pop the quarter fastenings to open the door - no great hardship 'tho.

 

 

I did that one the driver's side by closing the window and allowing it on the other side. Couldn't do that on the passenger obv and I did try undoing the quarter but the hood is a bit tight. 

[SiC]

Diff is a bit grumbly so I thought I'd check the level.


Pretty oily so I expected it to need it.


Dug out some gear oil.


Checked the fluid and found it dripping already. Plug seemed reasonably clean. Not sure if it's magnetic though.
Put a smidge more in and it ran out so it was full.


Well that was a lot of effort to find it was full.

Decided to find other jobs to do.

Not really much on the rear end to note apart from the springs look reasonably new.


Checked the diff code. FR I believe is 3.63:1 and correct for a 1500.


Fuel hose looked a bit wanky. Problem with replacing this one is that it'll pee everywhere. I'll have to wait till the fuel level is a bit lower first.


Moved to the front. Again not much to report. Clutch slave looks a bit skany. Still works though.


Decided to continue with the fuel hose plan by replacing the hoses in the engine bay. I dug out my favourite Gates Barricade hose which is E10 compliant.
This one especially needed changing. These transparent garden hose like pipes are original I believe. Also these fancy Chrome fuel filters are notoriously shite. Leak and let air in while not offering much in the way of filtration.


The filter looked reasonably clean with a few bits of metal flakes in there.


Stuck a Mahle inline filter in. Not my favourite as opaque and you can't easily judge how dirty it is.


Then backed it out to hover the carpets. An awful scraping noise came from the front...


Anyway I hovered the carpets.

Probably the least exciting car fettling session I've had in a while! I guess that's a good thing?

I wanted to get on with going through the wiring but decided to go out for a walk to watch the sunset instead.

[SiC]

If you've just read my last post, sorry it was terribly boring.

Anyway this evening we went to see the sunset.


Not as spectacular as it can be but still not a bad sight.


Took some pictures of the car while there.




Then set off home.

Just as we left I can feel a slight misfire. I said to Mrs SiC that I think it's being a bit grumpy. She dismissed it as just going over the many pot holes/drain covers and bumping the car around.

We get to the edge of town and it starts doing it more and quite noticeably. I pulled into a Tescos.
"Why do you always buy these cars that break?"
"It's just an old car. They do this sometimes and I have breakdown cover" was my retort.

I jiggled the plug leads around and found some that were a tad loose. Then shutdown the engine and took the cap off to check inside and feel the electronic ignition module. It was warm but not ridiculous. Likewise the coil was lukewarm. Started it back up and definitely much happier.

Set off and all seemed uneventful.

About half mile from home the misfire is back. At this point I'm too close for breakdown recovery so just going to limp it back whatever happens.

About 300 metres from home I go to pull out onto the main road that we're just off from a stop sign. This is a 40mph road but everyone drives far too quickly.

Shudder shudder clonk

Balls

Churns over but no fire.

I let it roll back and then use the starter motor to get roughly in position then push it the final way. Thankfully the car is very light.


Sigh.

Popped the dizzy cap off and put my hand on the accuspark module to get some heat out. At this point I'm convinced it's that which is the issue.
I have little faith in accuspark products after seeing so many fail. I had one of their distributors but with a points setup in the MGB. Ran okay for about 1000 miles and then progressively had timing scatter around. Final straw was when it gave a big backfire at a petrol station on startup. That's when I went 123Igntion and didn't look back.

Anyway I needed to get this home. I couldn't push it as it's far too dangerous on the main road. I put the dizzy cap on and restarted. Ran fine.

Right. The plan is to get it onto the main road, rev the fuck out of it and then coast if necessary back into our side road.

In the event, she got all the way home uneventfully. Back home I put the roof up and called it a night.

So what now?

I'm convinced it's the distributor and ignition related. I don't think fuel as I'd have expected it not to restart once I had cooled the module down with my hand. Given the sudden failure and heat related nature, its a good indication of an electronics failure.

I unfortunately don't have the original Lucas 45D distributor. I also don't know what the ignition curve is supposed to be.

It also needs to go into storage tomorrow as the TT needs to come back out to have it's exhaust fixed. I can't trust the ignition to not leave me stranded.

What are my options? I have a fully set up Lucas 25D from my BGT. Only thing missing is the condenser as I nicked it for another car (I think it went into one of PBK's Dolomites). But I probably can nick the condenser from the Midget. Curve on this will very likely be wrong but my experience is that it'll run fine with it.


The other option is I have a spare 123Ignition. I bought it a while back cheap second hand but it's missing the cap and rotor. But there should be a spare one of them in the BGT at storage. Never used this one before though so I don't know if it works properly. But that said, 123Ignition is usually solid. It's the GB-4 unit and the reason I've not used it on other stuff is that the fixed curves supplied aren't particularly great. Should be better than what's on this at the moment. The curves on accuspark distributors are generic and often wildly out anyway.

As I said the other day, Mrs SiC car voodoo has struck again. A fully working car conks out dead just because she's in it! 🫠

[Joey spud]

I'm sure you've discounted this but it isn't the rotor arm going to earth when it gets hot ?

A simple check i used to do was pull the coil lead from the distibutor and hold it a few mm away from the rotor and then crank the engine. If you got a spark jumping the gap then it was going to earth when hot.

[Mally]

5 minutes ago, Joey spud said:

I'm sure you've discounted this but it isn't the rotor arm going to earth when it gets hot ?

A simple check i used to do was pull the coil lead from the distibutor and hold it a few mm away from the rotor and then crank the engine. If you got a spark jumping the gap then it was going to earth when hot.

He's had that before on the MGB.

I had it on Mrs Spart's which had a Distributer Doctor stamp on it, but still went bad.

[SiC]

This has a DD stamp on the red rotor arm. But it's an accuspark distributor and DD doesn't supply to them. So it's a fake DD. I don't have a lot of faith in accuspark distributors or their electronic ignition. As mentioned previously I had a accuspark distributor on my B that went bad in 1k miles. Cheap shite. 

I've ordered this, which I believe is the correct model distributor for a 1500:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/164844912424

Pricey but original. Good useful spare if the 123Ignition doesn't work properly. Or if I ever do intend to sell and I'll probably keep the 123. 

I'll put on the 123 later today if I can find my spare cap and rotor.

[Joey spud]

It's a shame you didn't check and see if you had lost a spark from the coil lead and/or a plug lead while it was in no go mode.

Back when i had old Brit/Lucas cars i always seemed to have an odd spark plug,rotor arm,condenser,bits of wire tape etc in the door pocket it just seemed the norm back then.

You say the wiring is a bit iffy could you be loosing a decent feed to the coil ? Again back in my early RAC days i got a lot of use from two lengths of wire connected to a 410 headlight bulb as the brightness of the bulb was an easy way to check if a 12v supply was good or if it had a massive volt drop in it.

A favorite get you home fix if you had lost feed to a coil or fuel pump was to unplug the dead wire and run a wire from a headlamp instead so lamp on engine runs,lamp off engine stops obviously can't do that nowadays.