Zel's Motoring Adventures...Volvo, Renault, Rover, Trabant, Invacar & A Sinclair C5 - Updated 13/11.

[Zelandeth]

Just had a look, as far as I can tell the answer to where the water is coming from currently is "everywhere."

I get the feeling that a full new set of seals on everything may well be on the cards.

[Zelandeth]

While most areas seemed a good deal drier than yesterday, there was still standing water in a couple of places, so I added a fan to the equation to get a bit of air circulation going inside the cabin.

Next up was investigating the wobbly and lopsided front bumper.  This was particularly noticeable as it bounced quite impressively when the car was idling.

While it was bolted in place on the nearside (albeit not very tight), the offside was making do with a zip tie.  Not ideal, even though the bumper really doesn't weigh anything as it's just a bit of plastic.  Bolts were replaced after a little bit of letterbox surgery via the indicator hole in the front panel, and a secure and more or less straight bumper is now in place.

Much better.

On the subject of ousting zip ties, I also found my eye drawn to this.

Which after five minutes finding a couple of appropriate nuts and bolts was replaced with this from the box of bits.

I don't actually have an electrical feed for the pump at the moment, but it should work fine off the manual pump as it stands.  It doesn't leap out at you as soon as the bonnet is opened now at least.

Interesting to see that this doesn't look to be a modern replacement as it does still say made in DDR on it, with a date stamp from 1989, so not original to the car.

I also found the cool air intake duct for the heater in the boot so that was reinstated between the front panel and the heater air blend box.

I'm probably going to discover that this overwhelms the blend flaps in the heater when at speed and is something that most people fit during the summer and remove at winter which is why it was in the boot!

Engine bay looks a bit better I think now.

Really is crying out for a good clean though.  Especially down in the bottom of the inner wings and such there's about 1/2" of greasy mud. 

Strangely proportioned little car in profile. 

Based on the rear overhang and such, it really looks like there should be about a foot of additional body behind the front doors that someone has just chopped out, and that the doors would be a good bit longer (which admittedly would make entry and egress a good bit easier, it's a bit of a squeeze through the door if you've got long legs).

While digging around under the seats yesterday getting the carpets out something which surfaced was the lid for the fuse box I've just remembered so I'll need to get that put back in place next time I'm out at the car.

[Weird Car]

13 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

While most areas seemed a good deal drier than yesterday, there was still standing water in a couple of places, so I added a fan to the equation to get a bit of air circulation going inside the cabin.

Next up was investigating the wobbly and lopsided front bumper.  This was particularly noticeable as it bounced quite impressively when the car was idling.

While it was bolted in place on the nearside (albeit not very tight), the offside was making do with a zip tie.  Not ideal, even though the bumper really doesn't weigh anything as it's just a bit of plastic.  Bolts were replaced after a little bit of letterbox surgery via the indicator hole in the front panel, and a secure and more or less straight bumper is now in place.

Much better.

On the subject of ousting zip ties, I also found my eye drawn to this.

Which after five minutes finding a couple of appropriate nuts and bolts was replaced with this from the box of bits.

I don't actually have an electrical feed for the pump at the moment, but it should work fine off the manual pump as it stands.  It doesn't leap out at you as soon as the bonnet is opened now at least.

Interesting to see that this doesn't look to be a modern replacement as it does still say made in DDR on it, with a date stamp from 1989, so not original to the car.

I also found the cool air intake duct for the heater in the boot so that was reinstated between the front panel and the heater air blend box.

I'm probably going to discover that this overwhelms the blend flaps in the heater when at speed and is something that most people fit during the summer and remove at winter which is why it was in the boot!

Engine bay looks a bit better I think now.

Really is crying out for a good clean though.  Especially down in the bottom of the inner wings and such there's about 1/2" of greasy mud. 

Strangely proportioned little car in profile. 

Based on the rear overhang and such, it really looks like there should be about a foot of additional body behind the front doors that someone has just chopped out, and that the doors would be a good bit longer (which admittedly would make entry and egress a good bit easier, it's a bit of a squeeze through the door if you've got long legs).

While digging around under the seats yesterday getting the carpets out something which surfaced was the lid for the fuse box I've just remembered so I'll need to get that put back in place next time I'm out at the car.

There is supposed to be a little leather and fabric jacket to go over the engine which helps a bit with sound deadening 

great work with it so far though, it’s looking way better already! 

[Zelandeth]

1 hour ago, Weird Car said:

There is supposed to be a little leather and fabric jacket to go over the engine which helps a bit with sound deadening 

great work with it so far though, it’s looking way better already! 

Thanks.  Hopefully we can keep the momentum going.

I'll need to have a rummage around in the boot, but I definitely don't recall anything which looked like it would have been a jacket like that.  See they are available on Trabantwelt, but a little on the pricey side for something that I really don't *need* at this stage.  Though we'll have to see how long it takes me OCD to give in now I know it's missing!

 

Edit: Never mind, look what was folded up in the boot.

Will need to figure out how to fit that tomorrow.

[vinyljunky]

It is possible substitute the standard Trabant engine gilét with seasonal knitware.

[plasticvandan]

Does make a bit of difference to dropping the decibels,as you can imagine,nothing was fitted unless deemed necessary! 

[Zelandeth]

I have to admit to being curious.  It doesn't seem like something this simple could make a huge difference, but as had been said I doubt that it would have been specified without a very good reason.  

I guess it may well be one of those things where even damping certain frequencies by a relatively small amount can make a large perceived difference to the human ear.

Wonder if it potentially helps minimise unwanted air leakage from the tinware, helping ensure as much cooling air gets where it's needed too.

Hoping it will be pretty self explanatory how it fits once I've got everything in front of me, as looking at it in isolation I've not got a clue.

Really do need to track down a handbook.

Thankfully I was in one of the classes that studied German rather than French, so I can generally muddle my way through documentation in German.

... Doesn't help me in that two of my other cars are French mind you!

[Six-cylinder]

I am not sure if this is the right one but seems to down load as a pdf.

https://carmanualsdirect.com/checkouts/cn/2cfc64b78275a24d1c5cf3ad2608cb38/thank_you

[Christine]

Previous owner was a Glimp man ! 

 

[Weird Car]

18 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Really do need to track down a handbook.

I highly recommend becoming a paid up member of the Wartburg Trabant IFA club, if you aren’t already , for the sake of about £15 a year you get access to all the PDF manuals and loads of other benefits too! Discounts on oils, phone numbers of top trabi specialists and loads more, I don’t have a trabi anymore but still keep up my membership for the added benefits

[GlenAnderson]

Oh you utter swine! I have owning another Trabant on my “list of things to do before death”. 
 

The only reason I am forgiving you for rubbing my nose in my current state of Trabant-less-ness is the fact that it’s a saloon. If it had been a Kombi I’d have had the right hump! 🤣🤣

[hairnet]

On 06/12/2023 at 17:18, Zelandeth said:

 

for chucking around MK roundabouts

ironically - did a drop on thursday i think to a place in warrington and the address was a place in mk - head office probably

but to get from risley to there and on to irlam - what do you pass thru?

40000000000 roundabouts

well i thought it was funny - van didnt like it tho

ironic x2 where am i going next week?  mk

 

[hairnet]

oh and people say they have the fear about the fuel tank?

i thought that untill i realised thats how motorcycles do it

what have i rode every day for the last 30 years?

motorcycle

 

[Zelandeth]

Engine jacket has been reinstated.

Couple of missing clips, but it's not going anywhere.  Also found one of the mounting bolts for the air cleaner was missing so replaced that.

I remain unconvinced of the efficacy of this little bit of fabric in suppressing any perceptible amount of noise, but we'll see.

Also had one of the HT leads come off in my hand when I touched it as it wasn't screwed into the clip at the coil end.

Found this pair of chopped off wires leading into the engine bay.

I do wonder if these may have originally headed to the windscreen washer pump, need to check.  The wiper switch fitted is definitely the one for a car with an electric pump.

Torrential rain then arrived, and looks to be here for a while so that's stopped play for now.

Which sucks as there are a plethora of things I'd rather be doing.

[busmansholiday]

A Trabie has always been on my wish list, but I think this will be the closest I ever get...

 

Mind you, the cut out drawing inside that German version of HBOL I bought on a second hand market in German years ago is nice.

[Shep Shepherd]

I've got a fridge magnet of that. I bought it from the DDR Museum in Berlin ^^

[bobdisk]

Got fridge magnets, and a model from the same place!

[Tommyboy12]

I love a Trabant. Such a cool and quirky car. Definitely on my bucket list

[Zelandeth]

We made it four days before I rage quit on the mishmash of budget tyres on the Trabant.  Wouldn't have been quite as bad if the two matching tyres were actually on the same axle, but the tendency for it to attempt to rotate clockwise every time you so much as looked at any surface water wasn't going to be something I would put up with.  Three tyres had varying degrees of perishing from minor to major present anyway, so on go a new matched set.

Here's a look at the disk brake retrofit arrangement for those who expressed curiousity about it.

Though we did discover that the wheel from a later car is also something that's part of this as the dish is fractionally different and if you put the older wheels on the front they foul on the caliper.

Noticeable that we have a very, very oily looking gearbox there.  Will definitely need to check that the level is correct ASAP, then see if I can figure out where the oil is escaping.  Given where it seems to be mostly concentrated I'm tempted to point at the speedometer drive initially.  I reckon top up then go after the whole general area with the pressure washer and some degreaser is probably going to be the starting point though as there's no chance in hell of figuring out where it's coming from just now as there's a 1/8" thick coating of slime over the whole thing pretty much.

While the gearbox is very oily, the suspension spring it's very obvious is very much the opposite...I have to wonder when that was last greased.

Same looks to be the same for the rear.

The rear arms looks to be in fine shape.  There is a bit of rust on them but nothing scary.  A good wire brush, some Vactan and protection to prevent them degrading further should be fine there.

My choice of tyres will surprise absolutely nobody if they've followed my motoring nonsense for more than five minutes.

Car already feels are more positive, and most noticeably actually brakes in a straight line now - it always pulled slightly but noticeably to the right under braking before the tyres were changed.

As usual the guys there took quite an interest, including the manager of the place who seemed quite taken with it.

Had a few minutes spare when I got back so have continued just picking away at obvious simple to sort things.

There was a random lamp holder floating around down by the fuse box with a ground still attached to it.  On a hunch (after I confirmed the lamp in it worked), I went looking for a home for that.  Turns out it had been pulled out of the back of the rear window heater switch - so that now lights up again as the designers intended.

Those switches could both do with being dismantled, cleaned and having fresh grease applied to the moving parts as they are really, really stiff to operate just now.  Plus the caps could really do with a good clean.  The red circular thing to the left of the hazard switch which looks like a push button is actually the tell tale for the hazards, as the number of contacts in the switch didn't leave space for an integrated light in the switch itself.  This also now works having cleaned the contacts.

Investigation of the two random chopped wires I found in the engine bay a day or two back revealed exactly as I had expected that they were for the windscreen washers.  One is an ignition switched live (which was just floating around uninsulated in the engine bay, nice) and the other is a ground that's switched by the washer contact in the windscreen wiper switch.  I'll get that wired up properly again when I have a chance - for now I've ensured that the live wire isn't given an opportunity to find a ground.

Yes I probably should have used electrical tape, but I had that to hand and the two wires are individually wrapped before being overwrapped so it'll be fine.

The heater hose that goes into the air blend box is quite a loose fit, and you can feel a pretty large amount of air escaping around it if left to its own devices.  I suspect this may well have been far more snug when it was new, but now it obviously needs some help to make a good seal, so a hose clip was added to that join.

Did refitting the jacket around the engine cowling make any difference to the noise levels?  I can't say I really notice anything - but in the same breath the felt underlay from under the carpets is currently in the spare room until I get to the bottom of the plethora of water ingress issues so that's not a fair comparison really.  From outside there doesn't seem to be a really noticeable difference though as far as I can tell.

Was out and about after this doing a variety of errands today and definitely am still enjoying the car.  The gear shift is so, so much better now it's been greased.

It's hard to really convey in photos how tiny the thing is compared to most cars.  You can zap around mini roundabouts which you basically just drive over in other cars with ease. 

I still need to finish getting back used to reversing a left hand drive car though, that always takes me by far the longest of anything to get back into the swing of when I get back into one.

[LightBulbFun]

Awesome stuff! I noticed the other day the front and rear wheels where different (the number of ventilation slots) interesting to see there is an actual reason for that as I was going to ask about it  

I am also curious given how pretty light weight a Trabant is (615Kg according to Wikipedia) what are the tyre pressures like? I imagine tyre life should be pretty decent!

6 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

It's hard to really convey in photos how tiny the thing is compared to most cars.  You can zap around mini roundabouts which you basically just drive over in other cars with ease. 

I am really looking forward to when TPA comes out of hibernation, the comparison between the 2 should be most interesting  

 

maybe get @dollywobbler to do a back-back youtube TPA vs Trabant shootout/review?  

[Zelandeth]

Tyre pressure recommendations seem to be around 25psi.

 

Initial observations of comparison between the two off the top of my head:

[] Trabant is louder.  Way louder.  Especially when the engine comes on can.  TPA's engine is orders of magnitude more refined anywhere in the rev band.

[] Trabant heater is in a totally different league to the Invacar one, plus has the added advantage of some provision for cool air ventilation.  Still similarly struggles at low speed though as it's identically powered by bleed air from the cooling fan.

[] Performance is probably broadly similar, though having full control over the gearing means acceleration from standing on a gradient is a bit quicker in the Trabant.  Probably more noticeable as being a two stroke the power delivery is more peaky.  At 50-60mph TPA feels more composed, though not entirely sure how much that is just due to the comparative noise levels.  I need to actually do some more scientific tests there as it's a little while since I had TPA out.

[] Handling wise there's no comparison.  The Trabant is a bloody go kart.  TPA goes round corners well for a 3-wheeler and way better than anyone thinks, but she's still fundamentally missing a wheel in comparison!  For the same reason she's nowhere near as badly influenced by side winds.

[] TPA has the edge on ride comfort, and least with how her dampers are set, though I know the springs on the Trabant look really dry so that's not going to be doing any favours there.  Comfort in general...not really fair given I've not got the standard seat in TPA and have added additional sound deadening in the cabin, TPA is probably slightly ahead down to the very offset driving position in the Trabant - though on any trip longer than 20 minutes or so, not having to hold your arms up and the throttle open with your hand erodes that lead exponentially as time goes on.

[] Brakes are very similar in terms of the amount of shove required.

[] The body of the Trabant feels massively more solid.  I noticed today that aside from the passenger's door card flapping around and the driver's window glass rattling in the knackered seals, the cabin is actually surprisingly free of squeaks/rattles etc.  Unlike in TPA where *everything* rattles.  It's a very different construction though, so not hugely unexpected.  Biggest bodywork rattles are currently from the bonnet (which is buggered) and the bootlid which needs the latch adjusting as there's currently about 1/2" of free play when it's latched.

[] They seem about on par with regards to their ability to keep the weather outside.  So *most* of the weather stays outside.

[] Trabant obviously wins from a practicality perspective having four seats and an actual boot.

[] Ease of driving, TPA wins there.  Jump in, turn the key and go.  No having to remember to turn the fuel on/off, managing the requirements of a two stroke engine running premix fuel, no clutch or gears to worry about - and having an actual fuel gauge on the dash.  I do remember feeling very overwhelmed the first few times I drove TPA though, so I'm expecting the Trabant will feel less hard work as I get more used to the car.  You're never going to beat that simplicity of the twist and go setup for city driving though.

It's really not a totally fair comparison, one being a relatively low volume car built for a very specific purpose versus one which while cheap, has clearly had a hell of a lot of thought put into the design, and benefited from 20+ years of refinements during a production run of nearly 3M cars.  It's impossible not to compare the two though.  Both air cooled two cylinder engines, both making extensive use of plastics, very similar power to weight figures on paper, and both subject to a ridiculous number of quite unflattering urban myths.

I will definitely need to do a more scientific comparison, technically fair or otherwise, at some point though for my own interest aside from anything else.  Rather than just what's off the top of my head right now when I can't sleep!

I think probably the biggest surprise for me this week though has been how good a little car the Trabant actually seems to be given those myths.  It has definitely surprised me, and really doesn't seem to warrant that "worst car in the world" badge that seems to often get thrown at it.

[plasticvandan]

Don't be tooooo concerned about the oily box,from my experience running MZs as.daily transport,they do sweat a lot and build up an oily grime over everything,you may find that's just an accumulation of years.of oily driving.course,check the levels and give it a clean though.from memory oiling the leaf springs is a worthwhile service job too.

[LightBulbFun]

very interesting! I appreciate you taking the time to put that together  

2 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

It's impossible not to compare the two though.  Both air cooled two cylinder engines, both making extensive use of plastics, very similar power to weight figures on paper, and both subject to a ridiculous number of quite unflattering urban myths.

I will definitely need to do a more scientific comparison, technically fair or otherwise, at some point though for my own interest aside from anything else.  Rather than just what's off the top of my head right now when I can't sleep!

I think probably the biggest surprise for me this week though has been how good a little car the Trabant actually seems to be given those myths.  It has definitely surprised me, and really doesn't seem to warrant that "worst car in the world" badge that seems to often get thrown at it.

indeed this is exactly why I was quite curious to compare the two, they are very different cars but also with some basic similarities, and with a lot of the same bullshit said about them

and also if the AC Town Car had gone into production, and if the Trabant was imported into the UK when current, I could very much see them being reviewed against each other in some period motoring magazine etc 

 

and of course there was the Trabant Hycomat for a more direct Model 70 comparison  

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hycomat

https://www.trabantteam-freital.de/extra/trabiprospekte/html/1981_601erhycomat/index.html

although obviously it was still an adapted regular vehicle and all the limitations/compromises that came with that, you cant drive a hycomat with only 1 limb like you can a Model 70, or take your wheelchair with you

[quicksilver]

On 09/12/2023 at 16:53, Zelandeth said:

Strangely proportioned little car in profile. 

Based on the rear overhang and such, it really looks like there should be about a foot of additional body behind the front doors that someone has just chopped out, and that the doors would be a good bit longer (which admittedly would make entry and egress a good bit easier, it's a bit of a squeeze through the door if you've got long legs).

While digging around under the seats yesterday getting the carpets out something which surfaced was the lid for the fuse box I've just remembered so I'll need to get that put back in place next time I'm out at the car.

Does anyone else think a Trabant in profile looks a bit like an over-inflated Wolseley Hornet/Riley Elf with massive wheels? I hadn't thought of that until I saw this photo but now I can see some similarities - the shape of the glasshouse and roof is very Mini-like, both have fins on the back and the overall stubby proportions aren't too dissimilar.

[SiC]

To me on the side angle they always look like they've got a broken middle. I.e. to my eye it looks as if both ends sag down with it higher in the middle. 

[TrabbieRonnie]

Great progress, and thanks for the disc brake pics... looks a neat conversion.  I wonder how much stronger the brakes are. 

The gearbox is a bit oily, but I don't think Trabbi engine bays are ever that clean tbh!  The 'boxes take around a litre of hp68 hydraulic oil iirc, although the manual also says you can use SAE 30 motor oil.  I found some of the hyd stuff at work a few years ago, seems right enough.  TW sell it obviously, used to be around £7.

It's interesting to me to see a later one... Although mine is registered as a G (1989), shes actually an '82/'83ish car.  Apparently they were sometimes refurbished by the factory, given any upgrades and pumped out as new!  

I still have the old six-volt regulator in place, unused as she's fitted with the 12 volt setup including 'Ebza' electronic ignition.  I also have the slimmer b-posts, yours are thicker (meaning the rear side windows are slightly different),  which was a 1984 change. 

Rosie also 'keeps it real' with the old manual 'push-pull' windscreen washer pump, and I don't have the 'modern' dash switches you do.

I've often thought of trying to convince the DVLA of her true age, but the vin plate is right for '89.  So, either they had an old shell knocking about the factory and built it up (seems unlikely with the old style interior, dash etc.), or she was out in the wild for a few years before being called back to the mother ship for upgrades.  

My other Trabi (garaged since purchase, much to my shame), is a 1987 'D' with even more decadent and luxurious features... Heated rear screen, pop-out side windows... headrests!

There's a great 'changes through the years' post on TrabantForum.com that explains it all (next time you're struggling to sleep!).

Also, you can input your vin into a decoder online (think it's Czech, but Google translate works ok), and find out the exact date of build.

 

[Zelandeth]

8 hours ago, TrabbieRonnie said:

Great progress, and thanks for the disc brake pics... looks a neat conversion.  I wonder how much stronger the brakes are. 

The gearbox is a bit oily, but I don't think Trabbi engine bays are ever that clean tbh!  The 'boxes take around a litre of hp68 hydraulic oil iirc, although the manual also says you can use SAE 30 motor oil.  I found some of the hyd stuff at work a few years ago, seems right enough.  TW sell it obviously, used to be around £7.

It's interesting to me to see a later one... Although mine is registered as a G (1989), shes actually an '82/'83ish car.  Apparently they were sometimes refurbished by the factory, given any upgrades and pumped out as new!  

I still have the old six-volt regulator in place, unused as she's fitted with the 12 volt setup including 'Ebza' electronic ignition.  I also have the slimmer b-posts, yours are thicker (meaning the rear side windows are slightly different),  which was a 1984 change. 

Rosie also 'keeps it real' with the old manual 'push-pull' windscreen washer pump, and I don't have the 'modern' dash switches you do.

I've often thought of trying to convince the DVLA of her true age, but the vin plate is right for '89.  So, either they had an old shell knocking about the factory and built it up (seems unlikely with the old style interior, dash etc.), or she was out in the wild for a few years before being called back to the mother ship for upgrades.  

My other Trabi (garaged since purchase, much to my shame), is a 1987 'D' with even more decadent and luxurious features... Heated rear screen, pop-out side windows... headrests!

There's a great 'changes through the years' post on TrabantForum.com that explains it all (next time you're struggling to sleep!).

Also, you can input your vin into a decoder online (think it's Czech, but Google translate works ok), and find out the exact date of build.

 

Would be fascinating to compare the two side by side one day.  Bit of a hike between us though at the moment!

Think this is a record for the shortest time between me getting a car and getting a message from someone saying "Was this you?" relating to a post somewhere.

Yep, that will have been me.

Noticed another item for my shopping list today in the form of a steering rack gaiter.

Not much else going on today aside from a decent amount of driving around locally.

I did give the dash a (very) quick wipe over though, and have got the shelf underneath back into shape again.  It had basically collapsed because several of the trim clips that hold it up had vanished.

They definitely haven't been replaced with a random selection of screws.  I'll put the proper clips in once I have some to hand - all the ones I currently have are too big.

Car definitely feels a lot better for the new tyres.  Really has changed the feel of the steering completely, and it's definitely less bouncy than it was - a bit anyway.

[captain_70s]

I never realised these had 13" wheels, I always assumed they'd be 12". It's like it's a real car!

[TrabbieRonnie]

Found a pic of the two together, must've been a while ago, the kids are bigger than me now!

[Zelandeth]

The doors definitely appear to be a major source of our water ingress based on where the witness marks show up.

I'm sure the seals themselves have a part to play there as they're basically totally solid chunks of plastic which may have at some point been rubber.  I'm sure as a result that they're really not doing much useful.

There's also no form of drip shield present in either door behind the door cards which also won't be helping matters either.

So I'll need to look into making up a replacement for that.  I'm assuming there would have been some sort of sheet in there originally.

Trim clips...I have a grand total of three present for each front door out of...eighteen it looks like.  So I'll really need to try to find some that fit!  It would be nice to have door cards that don't flap around every time you close the doors.

On the driver's side front wing top the rubber infill strip on the panel join had lifted near the front in a couple of places. 

This was annoying my OCD in particular because you could see it from the driver's seat.  Thankfully a little careful prodding with a flat bladed screwdriver convinced the strip to go properly back into the groove and sit flat again.

It's a tiny detail at the end of the day, but they all add up eventually.

On a similar note is this rear light surround which I'll need to find a replacement for.  if I had the broken off bit I could probably glue it back together, but sadly I don't.

I've also had a look at the very loose latching of the boot lid.  On that one I'm scratching my head a little as the striker plate is adjusted as far down as it can be, but there's still a good 3/4" of slack when the bootlid is latched.  I do wonder if this is just down to the seal itself degrading rather than there being anything wrong with the latch - as it all looks fine.

Did find a pair of number plate surrounds in the boot which obviously date from the car's previous life in Germany.

I'm really not a fan of fussy things like this on cars so they'll probably just be carefully stored to be handed on to the next owner with the car when it's eventually moved on rather than put back on the car by me.  Interesting to see though.