Zel's Motoring Adventures...Volvo, Renault, Rover, Trabant, Invacar & A Sinclair C5 - Updated 13/11.

[Talbot]

On 2/19/2021 at 5:56 PM, Zelandeth said:

Also there's no side light position on the switch - first click takes it straight to dipped beam.  Would have thought 84 would have been early enough to escape the need for dim/dip devices wouldn't it?

84 is early enough to avoid dim-dip.  What you're seeing there is the oddity of the PRN switches on MK1 BX and also on the CX.  In the first position, if you prod the main-beam latching switch, you'll go from dipped beams back down to sidelights only.  Unfortunately, when you then move to position 2 on the slider, you're immediately on Main Beam.

Essentially, the way it's wired is that position 1 is sidelights, position 2 is main beam and the latching switch is a Dipped beam "over-ride".  It makes absolutly no sense like that at all, but all MK1 BX and all CX are wired this way.

I did investigate on one of my CXs "fixing" that, so position 1 was sidelamps *only*, then position 2 was dipped beams, with the latching switch providing main beams.... you know, how you'd expect it to be.  I did get it working, but that car never saw the road again.

With this car it's probably a judgement call as to whether it's left as standard, or modified so it works "correctly".  I'm convinced it was a design error by Citroen.

Really very pleased to see this car saved and being tended to.  You've likely got your work cut out for you on that interior, as I remember MK1 BX interiors being completely worn out 25 years ago and being a major reason why I didn't buy one in the mid-90's, even though I did seriously consider it.  I don't think it would be cheating too badly to fit a Mk2 "scratchy grey" interior to it, with some period seat covers.  The later seats were massively more hard-wearing than the early ones, but are the same (or at least a very similar) profile.

Oddly, no MK1 BX came with a temperature gauge that I'm aware of.  Even the GT models didn't have one.  The DIGIT I had for many years didn't even have one, only a too-late-lamp.  If there's a blank above the fuel gauge, I wonder if that could be used to fit a factory-looking gauge, maybe made from a spare fuel gauge perhaps.

[Zelandeth]

Useful to know on the way the switches work.  The fact that the light on the dash for sidelights doesn't work currently doesn't help figuring out what's going on either.  Think pulling the instrument panel and blanket replacement of all the lamps is probably going to be on the list sooner than later.

I'd noted that there was no mention of a temperature gauge on any of the variants, strange decision on the part of PSA.  At least they did fit a separate loss of coolant warning light in addition to the overheat warning, and made that two stage.  Better than most cars which just have the light.

With how rare BXs of any vintage are these days finding an interior donor isn't likely to be all that easy - likely to need some remedial work itself anyway.  Seat covers on a BX are always going to look odd too because of how deeply the seat bolsters are sculpted.  Haven't quite decided what the plan there will be yet.  Retrimming the seats would be the preferred option though as it's really nice how the whole car is cohesively colour coded in the same warm colour family.

They obviously did learn a few things going forward though, look at how hard wearing the interior materials on the Xantia were.

[Zelandeth]

On 2/18/2021 at 9:10 PM, LightBulbFun said:

BTW im curious if there are any special notes on the V5?, like "declared new at first registration" or such?

because as you may have noticed she is a 1984 car but registered in 1986, but she does not have any used before date of first registration or import markers etc that would say she is an import or such...
 

My guess would be dealer demonstrator or something like that.

V5 arrived today, here's what it has to say on the matter.

[Six-cylinder]

4 hours ago, Talbot said:

84 is early enough to avoid dim-dip.  What you're seeing there is the oddity of the PRN switches on MK1 BX and also on the CX.  In the first position, if you prod the main-beam latching switch, you'll go from dipped beams back down to sidelights only.  Unfortunately, when you then move to position 2 on the slider, you're immediately on Main Beam.

Essentially, the way it's wired is that position 1 is sidelights, position 2 is main beam and the latching switch is a Dipped beam "over-ride".  It makes absolutly no sense like that at all, but all MK1 BX and all CX are wired this way.

My GS is also like this, one twist of the left stalk to toggle between sidelight and dip and two twists to toggle between dip and main beam.

[LightBulbFun]

49 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

My guess would be dealer demonstrator or something like that.

V5 arrived today, here's what it has to say on the matter.

ohh interesting, so it DOES have a declared used on first registration marker, (interesting that none of my tools show those markers)

still wonder what the deal is there, if it was a dealer demonstrator surely it would have been registered when new in 1984, but simply to the dealer as the 1st keeper? 

wonder if it was imported from NI or one of the channel islands, 

(is the gauge cluster in KM/H or MPH? if its actually in KM/H then maybe some mad person dragged it over from Australia, it would explain the wrecked seat fabrics! LOL)

is there anything known about what its history was before it came to the forum?

[Zelandeth]

2 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

ohh interesting, so it DOES have a declared used on first registration, (interesting that none of my tools show those markers)

still wonder what the deal is there, if it was a dealer demonstrator surely it would have been registered when new in 1984, but simply to the dealer as the 1st keeper? 

wonder if it was imported from NI or one of the channel islands, 

(is the gauge cluster in KM/H or MPH? if its actually in KM/H then maybe some mad person dragged it over from Australia, it would explain the wrecked seat fabrics! LOL)

is there known about what its history was before it came to the forum?

Well I've seen new cars being driven around here with trade plates and no reg plates, potentially could have spent a while parked up in a dealership as a display model... though I'd usually expect them to use the higher spec models for that sort of thing.

Speedometer is your normal major MPH minor KPH setup.

So don't think it's an import from too distant shores.

[LightBulbFun]

4 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Well I've seen new cars being driven around here with trade plates and no reg plates, potentially could have spent a while parked up in a dealership as a display model... though I'd usually expect them to use the higher spec models for that sort of thing.

Speedometer is your normal major MPH minor KPH setup.

So don't think it's an import from too distant shores.

interesting  

I did wonder about trade plates, but wasn't  this time when they cracked down on trade plate usage?

I know a whole load of bus break down vehicles suddenly had to be registered around about this time after previously being allowed to run around on trade plates...

leading to some fun late registration madness  (before the Q plate was introduced in Aug 83)

 

speaking with a friend of mine he wondered if it might be an Ex Forces personal car? which is not a bad shout, otherwise, only other RHD but Mph Places I can think of is NI or the channel islands 

everywhere else that is RHD is KM/H I think?

[R1152]

43 minutes ago, Six-cylinder said:

My GS is also like this, one twist of the left stalk to toggle between sidelight and dip and two twists to toggle between dip and main beam.

(jealous of GS owner)

Lighting on my 16 was, I think, twist to turn on sidelights then move stalk downwards for dip beam, then I think away from you for main beam (it's 36 years ago, folks).

The odd thing was if you pulled the lighting stalk towards to flash the headlights whilst on sidelights, it flashed the dipped beam but if on dipped headlights it flashed the main beam. The Peugeot 104 that replaced the 16 (my brother bought that for his wife as she found the 16 too heavy/big to drive) moved the lighting stalk in a sort of U-shape.

Oh, to buy a Renault 16 for £38.50 now... ☹️

[R1152]

1 hour ago, Zelandeth said:

Useful to know on the way the switches work.  The fact that the light on the dash for sidelights doesn't work currently doesn't help figuring out what's going on either.  Think pulling the instrument panel and blanket replacement of all the lamps is probably going to be on the list sooner than later.

These seem to be very cheap, if they're this type of bulb: https://www.cit-ltd.co.uk/product-eng-6326-R509T-Dashboard-Instrument-Panel-Bulb-509T-PCB-Bulb-12v-1-2w.html

 

Quote

I'd noted that there was no mention of a temperature gauge on any of the variants, strange decision on the part of PSA.  At least they did fit a separate loss of coolant warning light in addition to the overheat warning, and made that two stage.  Better than most cars which just have the light.

My 16TL just had a light that said "I'm hot". Which it shared with the oil pressure warning.

[Six-cylinder]

I think that it was first used overseas is the most likely explanation. I had a 1979 RHD Opel Kadett C Caravan on an X reg. I bought it from a friend who's brother had bought it new, he was British army in Germany and came back when X reg was current.

My 1966 Northern Island Jaguar has the the correct dates on it's V5C. 

Just an outside chance that Citroen has used it as a show car at Motor shows etc but it does seem a big gap from Manufacture 18th Nov 1983 to registration March 1986 when it would have been the out of date model for several months.

[Zelandeth]

2 minutes ago, R1152 said:

These seem to be very cheap, if they're this type of bulb: https://www.cit-ltd.co.uk/product-eng-6326-R509T-Dashboard-Instrument-Panel-Bulb-509T-PCB-Bulb-12v-1-2w.html

 

My 16TL just had a light that said "I'm hot". Which it shared with the oil pressure warning.

BX is pretty well equipped with warning lights. 

There are separate oil level and pressure warning lamps, a low coolant light and the high temperature light has two stages, flashing to indicate things are getting warm and solid on for OMG you needed to stop five miles ago.

[R1152]

24 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

BX is pretty well equipped with warning lights. 

There are separate oil level and pressure warning lamps, a low coolant light and the high temperature light has two stages, flashing to indicate things are getting warm and solid on for OMG you needed to stop five miles ago.

I think the current daily driver (a 2004 BMW 530i) has something similar, because it doesn't have a temperature gauge either: if the message in iDrive and in the instrument panel is orange, that's "I'm hot and you need to be careful". If that becomes red it's the "Achtung Britischer, für ihr ist dem Krieg beendet" state.

[500tops]

The ORGA number suggests it was built on Friday 18th November 1983

 

Colour is Beige Impala

[Zelandeth]

A decent wash can make quite a difference.

Bit of moss on the bumpers...

Didn't go crazy under here, just knocked the worst of the gunk off, not least the aluminium oxide dust that was absolutely everywhere.

One of the main water ingress points I reckon was the passenger front window as it had come out of the runners and wasn't closed quite all the way.  The gutters being totally choked so the water was just running straight off the roof into the door seals won't have helped either.

Had a hard time getting her to take fuel again today, think the float valve might be sticking/partly clogged in the carb.

[timolloyd]

Great work, love reading the progress on your projects

[Tomtation]

Phwoar, top content! That beige paintwork will come up an absolute treat with a bit of polish, you lucky man you 😎

Just in case you've never tickled the rear spheres on a BX  (i expect you have, but, you know...) go careful and make sure there is load on the rear wheels, if you try and unscrew them without, you'll probably break the return pipes if not the rear cylinder judging by the look of them spheres! Crusty.

[stillOrange]

Brilliant work Zelandeth and good luck with taking it on. 

I am really glad that beige rough diamond project is still going on AS. 

It is the epitome of what this forum was all about few years back. 

I did fall in love with it at first sight... 

 

 

 

[Zelandeth]

18 hours ago, vulgalour said:

Great to see it sat there idling quite happily, that bodes well.  The interior, seat fabric aside, looks like a good wipe over with some vinyl cleaner/conditioner will see it looking far better than it has any right to.  Is it just the photos or is the gear lever actually colour coded to the interior?

Here's a closer photo for you...

The (sadly somewhat decomposed) handbrake pull is colour coded too.

I've never done the spheres on a BX, but have done more on Xantias than I care to think about so am aware of the fight I may be in for getting those off.

[Zelandeth]

Meant to include this one earlier too.  Dash has had another three treatments and is looking a lot better.

If I can coerce the carb to behave enough to let her run for more than a minute at a time tomorrow (I should just take the blasted needle valve out and see if it's full of gunk) it'll probably be the point at which I get the oil changed.  Will probably be the last time for a bit though as a few jobs need done which will affect running ability.

[] Carb needs to come off so I can try to get the accelerator pump working.

[] Rear spheres *desperately* need changing.

[] Dash needs to come to bits to sort out the plethora of dead lamps...the fact that neither the low coolant or overheat lights work makes me nervous.  Though I did determine the cooling fan works yesterday.

[] Stealing the fuel pump back now I've proven the one on the car is an issue - which will immobilise the car until the new one arrives.

One bit I'll be after now is the small plastic trim which should be just in front of the rear wheel arches, now I've seen what should be there!  That's likely to be tricky to find...

This bit (crop of screenshot of a photo from the original thread)...

Low on the priority list really!

[vulgalour]

Don't forget the rear arch profile is different on mk1 and mk2 hatchbacks, but the same on all estates, so when you're looking for them, make sure it's from an estate or a mk1 hatchback.  On mk2s the rear lip is slightly bigger.  Pretty sure the trim is held on with double sided tape.  They don't come up that often because they don't tend to go missing.  I was told the rubbing strips are different between mk1 and mk2 as well, with mk1 trims being the same as mk1 base models of both body shapes and mk2 higher trim levels having a different profile to the moulding.  While we're on the topic of trim nerding (sorry), the ovals in the wheel trims ought to be satin black rather than silver on this one too.  I assume you fitted the wheel trims before the wheel nuts, if you push the trims on over the wheel nuts the trims will come off... ask me how I know.  Seems like Citroen used whatever leftover mk1 bits they had to create the mk2 base models.

[mitsisigma01]

2 hours ago, vulgalour said:

trim nerding

👍🤣🤣

[bobdisk]

17 hours ago, R1152 said:

(jealous of GS owner)

Lighting on my 16 was, I think, twist to turn on sidelights then move stalk downwards for dip beam, then I think away from you for main beam (it's 36 years ago, folks).

The odd thing was if you pulled the lighting stalk towards to flash the headlights whilst on sidelights, it flashed the dipped beam but if on dipped headlights it flashed the main beam. The Peugeot 104 that replaced the 16 (my brother bought that for his wife as she found the 16 too heavy/big to drive) moved the lighting stalk in a sort of U-shape.

Oh, to buy a Renault 16 for £38.50 now... ☹️

If I remember, Dads Talbot Samba 1984 had an odd light switch. Lever down, twist once for sidelights, lever up for dim/dip. Twist a second time for: lever down for dim/dip, lever up for dip. Twist a third time for: lever down for dip, up for main. I think! 

 

[Zelandeth]

5 hours ago, vulgalour said:

Don't forget the rear arch profile is different on mk1 and mk2 hatchbacks, but the same on all estates, so when you're looking for them, make sure it's from an estate or a mk1 hatchback.  On mk2s the rear lip is slightly bigger.  Pretty sure the trim is held on with double sided tape.  They don't come up that often because they don't tend to go missing.  I was told the rubbing strips are different between mk1 and mk2 as well, with mk1 trims being the same as mk1 base models of both body shapes and mk2 higher trim levels having a different profile to the moulding.  While we're on the topic of trim nerding (sorry), the ovals in the wheel trims ought to be satin black rather than silver on this one too.  I assume you fitted the wheel trims before the wheel nuts, if you push the trims on over the wheel nuts the trims will come off... ask me how I know.  Seems like Citroen used whatever leftover mk1 bits they had to create the mk2 base models.

Thanks for that, useful information.  I'm guessing I'll just need to adapt whatever I can find most likely...as you say they don't tend to disappear.  Assuming they were the same colour as the bumpers, in which case I'll probably need to paint whatever I find.  I'll be lucky to find a set at all...much less in the same brown as the bumpers (likewise expecting to have to paint the rear bumper if I'm lucky enough to find one).

The wheels trims are just pushed on for cosmetic purposes for now, I know they need to go on before the wheels are bolted in though and that will be done before she drives anywhere with them on.  They could do with painting anyway so I'll make sure to black in the ovals when that's done.

Thankfully the missing bits of rubbing strip from the front wings are both in the car so I don't need to track that down. 

[Zelandeth]

Fuelling mystery solved.  Well, half solved.

I'd ascertained that the fuel pump was very weak which was part 1.  Part 2 however was that even with a known good electric pump fitted the carb was really reluctant to fill the float bowl.

Pulled the top properly off the carb so I could examine it closer.  With the needle valve removed I figured it out pretty quickly.

Sitting in there is this little ball.

Which I assume should form a check valve to stop fuel draining back to the tank.  However it's missing a spring...so instead was just sitting on the fuel inlet port on the needle valve... effectively being a check valve the wrong direction, not allowing fuel into the carb.

For now I've removed it, bagged and labelled it.

I'll see if I can find a suitably tiny spring shortly and use that to refit it.  Though it's not shown on either of the diagrams I have for the carb...which leads me to think there are two possibilities.  1. It actually belongs somewhere totally different in the carb (I know something is amiss with the accelerator pump).  Or 2, that it's a later addition to the design (no idea if this carb is original to the car, given the mileage it's entirely likely it was replaced years ago) so not on my old diagrams.

For now thout this has resulted in a car which starts first touch and *stays* running properly.  Sounds far happier too, though the idle speed is quite high.  Going to slosh a couple of gallons of fresh fuel in, let her warm up fully and see if I can tweak the idle mixture/speed a bit before draining the oil.

[Zelandeth]

Update.

Adding another couple of gallons of fuel...simple right up till this happened.

Which happened because...

The tank is full!  Despite the claims of the gauge, which never moves from the stop.  So either the sender or gauge is duff.  Hopefully the sender as a replacement for that is likely to be far easier to source.

Gauge has never moved here here at all.

With fuel delivery behaving itself and the engine properly up to temperature I was able to tweak the idle down to a slightly more sensible level, think it was sitting at about 1800rpm before.

I did a further experiment a little later, given the carb was now actually accepting fuel...spot the difference?

Yep, she's running on the original fuel pump.  I know from testing that it's weak though so it'll be changed as soon as the replacement arrives.  I wanted the Invacar's pump back for now though!

Speaking of the Invacar, new distributor cap arrived today...albeit not the one I actually ordered!

I got halfway through an order on one of the Fiat specialists before I managed to find one which also had the rotor arm and points in stock.  At which point I abandoned the original one.  Apparently their system glitched however and still marked the order as completed...Have contacted them and they've agreed that returning it would be daft given the costs of shipping it all the way back to Italy, so we've agreed that I just paid the item value and they've refunded the postage - which was one of the reasons I jumped to another supplier as it was expensive compared to others.  Apparently their web store is run by a third party and they've had a heap of problems in the last month.  They were very apologetic.

This meant I had a clear cap to play with though.

Would have been rude to not get some operational photos...

Plus of course slow motion video.

The black one will get installed once it arrives with the new rotor arm, but this will be good for a spare.

[LightBulbFun]

10 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Update.

Adding another couple of gallons of fuel...simple right up till this happened.

Which happened because...

The tank is full!  Despite the claims of the gauge, which never moves from the stop.  So either the sender or gauge is duff.  Hopefully the sender as a replacement for that is likely to be far easier to source.

Gauge has never moved here here at all.

With fuel delivery behaving itself and the engine properly up to temperature I was able to tweak the idle down to a slightly more sensible level, think it was sitting at about 1800rpm before.

I did a further experiment a little later, given the carb was now actually accepting fuel...spot the difference?

Yep, she's running on the original fuel pump.  I know from testing that it's weak though so it'll be changed as soon as the replacement arrives.  I wanted the Invacar's pump back for now though!

Speaking of the Invacar, new distributor cap arrived today...albeit not the one I actually ordered!

I got halfway through an order on one of the Fiat specialists before I managed to find one which also had the rotor arm and points in stock.  At which point I abandoned the original one.  Apparently their system glitched however and still marked the order as completed...Have contacted them and they've agreed that returning it would be daft given the costs of shipping it all the way back to Italy, so we've agreed that I just paid the item value and they've refunded the postage - which was one of the reasons I jumped to another supplier as it was expensive compared to others.  Apparently their web store is run by a third party and they've had a heap of problems in the last month.  They were very apologetic.

This meant I had a clear cap to play with though.

Would have been rude to not get some operational photos...

Plus of course slow motion video.

The black one will get installed once it arrives with the new rotor arm, but this will be good for a spare.

Oh cool, you got one of the clear caps anyhow LOL

tis neat to see inside during operation, tho I think the slow mo vid needs to be reshot with a bit more light on it so we can see the actual rotor arm go round and round  but it is interesting to see what the arcing looks like etc

must be quite the light show on something like the Jaguar!

 

Happy to see things are progressing well on the BX

[Zelandeth]

47 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

Oh cool, you got one of the clear caps anyhow LOL

tis neat to see inside during operation, tho I think the slow mo vid needs to be reshot with a bit more light on it so we can see the actual rotor arm go round and round  but it is interesting to see what the arcing looks like etc

must be quite the light show on something like the Jaguar!

 

Happy to see things are progressing well on the BX

Yeah, was very much running out of daylight by that point, will have another shot at it shortly.

Trying to decide which job to tackle next on the BX.  Fuel pump is scheduled to be here Thursday, so probably pull the carb and see if I can sort the accelerator pump.  Oil change is waiting on the correct filter arriving - nowhere locally could source one so I had to resort to eBay.

Hoping once the fuel pump is changed, if I can also get the carb fully behaving that will get the car *running* reasonably well.  Then I'll feel more free to tackle the less fundamental but more involved jobs like sorting out the instruments, trying to get the heater blower working etc.

Do have one obvious suspension job to do - the strut gaiter on the nearside has totally disintegrated. 

I've changed one of these on a Xantia before, assuming the process is pretty similar.  There's an obvious clonk from the driver's side when the suspension moves so guessing there's a bush/ball joint in need of attention there.

I think I've found the main water ingress point.  Certainly where the carpet is wettest and the only place I've visibly seen water dripping in.

This is getting in around the intake for the nearside fresh air dash vent.  Just looks like the gasket/sealant has failed...I think I'm probably going to take the low tech approach there and just reinforce the seal with some Sikaflex.  I was worried that was coming in around the windscreen initially but the run marks seem to show the source pretty clearly.  I think the scuttle drains were clogged prior to me assaulting them with a pressure washer yesterday which won't have helped.

[dollywobbler]

Willing to bet that the fuel gauge is a duff earth at the tank end. Seems common on Citroens of that era.

Can also confirm the odd light switch - 2CVs have dipped beam in two positions (switching to side lights or main beam) so I think it's a carry over from that.

[Surface Rust]

25 minutes ago, dollywobbler said:

Willing to bet that the fuel gauge is a duff earth at the tank end. Seems common on Citroens of that era.

Can also confirm the odd light switch - 2CVs have dipped beam in two positions (switching to side lights or main beam) so I think it's a carry over from that.

I think the 2cv and Dyane light switch is labelled V for 'ville' and R for 'route', so not sure if it was a French rule that the lights operated in this way. From memory DSs had two horns as well, one for town use and another for country.

Simple answer is 'because French'.

Loving the BX progress.

[vulgalour]

Excellent news on the fault hunting on the BX.  Perhaps with a stronger pump there's no need for a spring with the ball bearing and that's why there isn't one there?