project 1980 Austin Princess

[Asimo]

Aaargh!    Hug.

[captain_70s]

2 hours ago, vulgalour said:

Obviously, I'm pretty narked about the whole thing and feel monumentally daft for not knowing that a paper gasket had to be a paper gasket for engineering purposes.

I'd never had considered it, to be fair. The clearance must be minuscule, surely you could achieve the same effect by tightening the bolts too much? Sounds like a shit bit of design to me...

If it makes you feel better I got this gem of a YouTube comment today:

[Andyrew]

 

[MarvinsMom]

broadcasting under manager?

yes i am old enough to remember that on the Kenny Everett Television Program way back when......

and that is bad news about the Princess and no compression.

[spartacus]

That is, genuinely, bad luck. I hope when you get to it its not too major.

This is one of those occasions when you feel an inanimate object is being ungrateful.

[MikeKnight]

2 hours ago, captain_70s said:

I'd never had considered it, to be fair. The clearance must be minuscule, surely you could achieve the same effect by tightening the bolts too much? Sounds like a shit bit of design to me...

I've rebuilt many various heads over the years and I was genuinely surprised and confused by this, because the paper gasket is extremely thin. We're talking no more than 0.5mm. So yeah you could've binded it just by over tightening the bolts at that rate!

How the hell it managed to skip the belt 90 degrees without making any horrible noises I have absolutely no idea. Engine still spins freely. Compression has just disappeared. If I had to guess I'd say bent valves or snapped springs, but I sure hope not. I have no idea what else could possibly be killing the compression.

[vulgalour]

1 hour ago, spartacus said:

This is one of those occasions when you feel an inanimate object is being ungrateful.

There's no feeling about it, I know it's ungrateful.  I'm going to fix it out of pure spite.

[Parky]

I can’t believe that happened.  
 

It’s the O series definitely an interference engine?  Pretty sure the closely related S series wasn’t 

[richardthestag]

has the cam belt stripped a tooth or 5? The engine didn't start so maybe it is just that valve timing is way out and you would get no compression. Hopefully no bent valves

Mate in the late 80s did this with a 2.6 SD1 engine, cam ran tight, momentum from crank stripped belt, valves hit pistons etc. Alas he was 5k rpm on the M25 changing up to 5th gear at the time... Back then 2.6 heads and cam carriers were in plentiful supply in the scrap yards so that was the cheap solution.

 

BTW gaskets and clearance on Stag / triumph slant engines is critical on the water pump cover. Else the top of the pump with touch the cover, strip the gear and fill the sump with little bits of metal, if unlucky then the chain will snap with all manner of nightmares and bent conrods

[vulgalour]

TL:DR

Engine running, oil leak appears on end plate corner.

Tighten bolt, thread stripped out of head.

Helicoil stripped thread, find end plate paper gasket is torn, use sealant instead since I haven't a gasket and didn't realise it was critical as a shim

Try to start engine, several times, everything is turning together but the initial start must have jumped the belt and caused the problem.  No compression.  On inspection today, some of the teeth on the belt have rounded off edges which they didn't when installed, so new belt is definitely required.

 

With all the above in mind, I can pinpoint the cause of this to my own ignorance with that gasket.  Camshaft bound up against the end plate, timing belt jumped a few teeth, parts met other parts they shouldn't, compression gone.  I've already got the head stripped down to a point it can be removed, I'm just waiting on the fluids draining out as fully as possible before I lift it and inspect more properly, and having some lunch, since this isn't the sort of job to be doing on an empty stomach.

[vulgalour]

The results are in.  I've had the head off and already reassembled everything loosely so I don't lose any parts.

That looks to me like eight bent valves.  There's only one mark per valve location on the piston crowns so it looks like the one smacked into the other and the valves got bent out of the way.  Usefully that's prevented further damage and hopefully the parts in my other head will sort this head out.  Not this year though.  Princess is now on SORN and will remain so probably for a few months until I'm in a better position to sort this.  We've overcome bigger obstacles than this, so it'll get sorted.  When I'm in the new house, I'll take this apart more fully to figure out what's needed exactly.

To add to the irritation, two of the new hose clamps I fitted fell apart and had already gone rusty, and the replacement cold air duct hose I ordered was the wrong size, as in I ordered a hose that was specifically listed as 60mm inner diameter, which is what I need, and it's actually 55mm, so doesn't fit, even the external diameter isn't 60mm, being 63mm.  You can't stretch the hose because it's a metal spiralised cardboard thing, so the only way to get it to fit was slot one end and put it inside the air box connection.  It also doesn't clamp properly in the inner wing clamp that stops it flopping around, so that's another waste of money on an item I couldn't find in a shop and had to order online.

This whole saga started with replacing one heater hose that had an age related pinhole in it, after which the head gasket blew, I then got messed around with a custom part for 2 months that, when made, was wrong, and have had a string of incorrect parts and faff because I've had to order stuff online and hope what I'm getting is what's actually being sold.  There have been times I've been so frustrated I want to give up and this last mistake hasn't helped with that.  At this point the only reason I'm persisting is, I think, stubborness.  I'm certainly not doing any of this for the joy of old car ownership, right now there is no joy.

[SiC]

At least no smashed pistons.

Keep at it, will be worth it in the end. It all adds to the ultimate satisfaction when it is eventually sorted and drives well.

I'm glad I stuck it out on my MGB. Now is my favourite car. The trial and tribulations I had are now mostly forgotten.

[Parky]

Looks a straightforward enough fix though, even if you don’ t feel particularly motivated right now.

I had read about a method to hammer valves straight again...

 

[junkyarddog]

You're showing an amazing amount of restraint!

If it was mine I'd have bludgeoned it to death with a sledgehammer !!

[richardthestag]

4 hours ago, vulgalour said:

The results are in.  I've had the head off and already reassembled everything loosely so I don't lose any parts.

That looks to me like eight bent valves.  There's only one mark per valve location on the piston crowns so it looks like the one smacked into the other and the valves got bent out of the way.  Usefully that's prevented further damage and hopefully the parts in my other head will sort this head out.  Not this year though.  Princess is now on SORN and will remain so probably for a few months until I'm in a better position to sort this.  We've overcome bigger obstacles than this, so it'll get sorted.  When I'm in the new house, I'll take this apart more fully to figure out what's needed exactly.

To add to the irritation, two of the new hose clamps I fitted fell apart and had already gone rusty, and the replacement cold air duct hose I ordered was the wrong size, as in I ordered a hose that was specifically listed as 60mm inner diameter, which is what I need, and it's actually 55mm, so doesn't fit, even the external diameter isn't 60mm, being 63mm.  You can't stretch the hose because it's a metal spiralised cardboard thing, so the only way to get it to fit was slot one end and put it inside the air box connection.  It also doesn't clamp properly in the inner wing clamp that stops it flopping around, so that's another waste of money on an item I couldn't find in a shop and had to order online.

This whole saga started with replacing one heater hose that had an age related pinhole in it, after which the head gasket blew, I then got messed around with a custom part for 2 months that, when made, was wrong, and have had a string of incorrect parts and faff because I've had to order stuff online and hope what I'm getting is what's actually being sold.  There have been times I've been so frustrated I want to give up and this last mistake hasn't helped with that.  At this point the only reason I'm persisting is, I think, stubborness.  I'm certainly not doing any of this for the joy of old car ownership, right now there is no joy.

fuck sticks! I feel for you mon brave - but it is fixable for the cost of a set of valves and some lapping in.

make sure that all pistons crown - i.e. right to the top of the bore

Good luck with house move

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Can't believe missing out a poxy paper gasket can result in instant engine destruction, what an appalling design. I wonder how many they lost on the production line back in the day due to dozy Brummie bastards forgetting to put one in.

[mat_the_cat]

Wow. What a piece of bad luck! I've been caught out with gasket thickness before, but not with such consequences. Hats off to your determination!

[MikeKnight]

2 hours ago, richardthestag said:

make sure that all pistons crown - i.e. right to the top of the bore

That's a damn good point. Making sure there isn't any damage to the conrods.

Are these wet liner engines? I forget. If it's just a solid block then you don't have to worry about any liners moving.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

dont think theres any liners on these old shonkers, the bores are just machined straight into the block

[vulgalour]

No liners, happily.  Lower mileage O series lumps do come up for sale now and then because nobody wants them so I'll be keeping an eye out for one of those too, just in case.  Should've given the crankshaft a twizzle when everything was apart, didn't think to.  Ah well, I'll do it post house move.

[flat4alfa]

Put a T-series in, go on

I do have a spare O engine in the garage.  Not looked at it closely, think it's a 2L

[vulgalour]

As far as I'm aware, 2.0 and 1.7 O series are the same except for the length of the stroke since BL lengthened the stroke rather than widening the bore to gain extra capacity... somehow.  I was told years ago you can plonk the 2.0 head on a 1.7 block, but also told variously that you do and don't need all of the internals to make it work.  Externally, the two engines look the same, so it's a good cheaty upgrade if you're into that sort of thing... and if you want apparently you can slap a twin carb manifold and carbs from an Austin Ambassador.

Sticking a T in is theoretically possible, but also a total ballache because gearbox-in-sump.  Same goes for the S and M series engines.  The B should theoretically drop straight on, but I've a suspicion the transfer box needs to be changed to be compatible even though the O is an evolution of the B's architecture (I think... I get confused easily on this stuff so might have that wrong).

If I were putting any engine in that wasn't original, it'd be electric.  Can't afford to go that route yet, but I feel like it would really suit the car and the way I use the car.  Theoretically, there's enough space to stick the battery pack where the enormous fuel tank lives, and providing you can get an electric motor that's compatible with the odd gearbox set up - and apparently it's been done to a Mini so I don't see why not - it should be doable.  Not for any sort of financial or planet saving thing, just for the heck of it.

[richardthestag]

7 hours ago, vulgalour said:

If I were putting any engine in that wasn't original, it'd be electric.  Can't afford to go that route yet, but I feel like it would really suit the car and the way I use the car.  Theoretically, there's enough space to stick the battery pack where the enormous fuel tank lives, and providing you can get an electric motor that's compatible with the odd gearbox set up - and apparently it's been done to a Mini so I don't see why not - it should be doable.  Not for any sort of financial or planet saving thing, just for the heck of it.

This would be a laugh, imagine the silence as it moves, you would need some sci fi humming noise as it sets off for extra giggles.

There is a company in Wales https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/ that does this kind of thing with DIY kits and everything.

I am looking to do a RR EV for shits and giggles, these chaps did one and KRYTEN LLewellyn tested in on the youtube channel

[JeeExEll]

Taking a step back from this, and trying to think of other causes, are we sure the width of a paper gasket caused this? It's a fault which would have come to light before now. (Maybe it has, I don't know as I am an iriot re BL stuff).

Vulg this must be rather a bit of a pisser for you, especially with house move etc at the moment, but never mind.

Hey ho, onwards and upwards m8, see what 2020 brings. 

[vulgalour]

I've been able to demonstrably prove it's that gasket and since there were zero issues before the gasket was removed and the car was actually running, that would suggest I've found the issue.  Also, as I've pointed out, the car was running perfectly fine right up until that gasket was removed.  There are other examples of paper gaskets being used for similar purposes, the Triumph Stag waterpump mentioned earlier in this thread, and old Ford diff casings mentioned on another.  There will no doubt be plenty of situations where the gasket thickness is vital to operation and it's not encountered because the gaskets are just replaced by rote.

It's a good excuse to buy another Princess too, you know... for parts >.>

[Asimo]

New engines still available......

https://cabmasters.com/vans/van-engines/bl-o-series-engine

[Noel Tidybeard]

On 11/30/2019 at 6:10 AM, Parky said:

I can’t believe that happened.  
 

It’s the O series definitely an interference engine?  Pretty sure the closely related S series wasn’t 

S-series not closely related to O

E series begat R series which begat S

[vulgalour]

Looks like they did a mod on the old waxstat housing similar to what I've done.  Also, their information that the 1.7 isn't unleaded friendly but the 2.0 is contradicts the information I was given and the fact I've been running my 1.7 on unleaded with no bother on that front for a few years now.  I also hate that the whole thing is painted in hammerite... THAT SAID, it's a useful resource to bookmark for the future, so thanks for the tip off!

[somewhatfoolish]

Given the 1.7 and 2.0 share the same head the claim one can use unleaded and one can't is baffling.

[Tadhg Tiogar]

On 12/1/2019 at 11:03 AM, richardthestag said:

This would be a laugh, imagine the silence as it moves, you would need some sci fi humming noise as it sets off for extra giggles.

There is a company in Wales https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/ that does this kind of thing with DIY kits and everything.

You would get the whine of the electric motor spinning, so not completely silent.

Also, commissioning ECC in Wales to do the conversion work for you means you're unlikely to see much change out of twenty grand.