The Budget & Us

[UltraWomble]

42 minutes ago, cobblers said:

It's about £30-80 on aliexpress for a mileage blocker to fit the majority of modern cars. Invisibly plugs into the dash cluster, and only adds on 1/10th of the miles you do (or whatever fraction you decide)

I'm all for it! Bring on mileage based tax for all vehicles! 

Not available for a lot of older cars though (I looked and my Polo certainly isn't catered for) but a sililar amount of money on a Chinese 2 way coder will see the clock miles shaved off with ease. 

It won't correct the ECU stored engine miles though. 

I can see PPM coming in for all cars in the future not just battery

[hairnet]

was thinking of sacking off the 108 cos pre 16 ev and *not many miles a year (old git lives in a 5 miles radius bubble )

2500 as an example would be 75 quid + 195 for post 17 stuff and thats a no from me

270 quid is quite a lot of pez for pottering about

i did 12k in it between mots when i was off ill - thatd be 360 + 195 - they can completely FRO

for a limo or something flash maybe - for a shopping trolley - no

if they start mentioning two wheels im gonna be going travis or guy fawkes on them

[comfortablynumb]

Looks like the 1970 cortina estate will be doing daily duties again then...😁

[Metal Guru]

1 hour ago, lesapandre said:

The BBC have got so far with their reporting:

"Calculating the number of miles that drivers cover is difficult". 

Not very helpful! 

This method seems fraught with cost and problems: 

How to calculate? By tracking?

Who is going to do that?

Who is the implementation contract to be let to? Private company?

What's the administration cost? 

Annual payment but with VED - what if people can't pay what they clock up?

What happens to cars sold? More than once in a year? Or crashed cars, insurance write-offs, repossessions and software failure? 

Divorce, death, insolvency etc - how factored in?

What if the car isn't used at all - will there be an admin fee still?

The government has a track record of very poor performance with IT - how's it going to handle problems with the data and appeals (ie folk saying I did not drive that far!)?

With IT a government body even leaked the budget so handling billions of data points may be a challenge. 😂

To go up by inflation each year - that could compound quite quickly and will be not in line with VED?

How does freezing fuel duty and taxing electric cars square with climate goals?

Etc etc...😂

Ill thought taxes can have unintentional consequences  - UK will end up resembling Cuba  Autoshite - 'Viva La Revolution' !

Give the contract to Fujitsu. They’ll say half the country has done 1/2 m miles and owes £15k. 

[beko1987]

25 minutes ago, Metal Guru said:

Give the contract to Fujitsu. They’ll say half the country has done 1/2 m miles and owes £15k. 

Can you prove you didn't drive this distance sir? Im afraid I'm not interested in what your speedometer says, unless you can prove your whereabouts for the last 12 months and x miles the bill will double every month until paid

 

/horizon

[N Dentressangle]

Good to see the tax exemption for old shite stays. Removing it would have raised peanuts anyway.

The way EV's have been taxed is obviously not sustainable. Taxation is how we have nice things like roads, schools, hospitals etc. Petrol is currently taxed at nearly 53p per litre, so for every 30 miles I do in a 30mpg car I'm already paying £2.40 in tax, so about 8p per mile.

How they're going to measure the mileage is a bloody good question, but  it still makes an EV look like a bargain tbh. I'd have one if I were sensible, but I'm not.

[stuboy]

so im safe with my over 400 quid a year road tax cars...

[sheffcortinacentre]

As said it'll be built in to all the new stuff by then as it's hit & miss with the current stuff.

But same old. Diesels are great you all need to buy one oh got you hooked now pay up.

Same with Ev you all need to get one ,aha got you hooked again. Just like any dealer.

[adw1977]

If plug in hybrids are charged at half the rate per mile of pure electric cars then the plug ins will become very popular with drivers who do a lot of miles and mostly use electric and a liability for those who use mostly fossil fuels that they already pay duty on.

Will miles clocked up abroad be counted? As the tax is supposedly for the wear and tear caused by electric vehicles on UK roads they really shouldn't be.

[jim89]

8 minutes ago, adw1977 said:

If plug in hybrids are charged at half the rate per mile of pure electric cars then the plug ins will become very popular with drivers who do a lot of miles and mostly use electric and a liability for those who use mostly fossil fuels that they already pay duty on.

Will miles clocked up abroad be counted? As the tax is supposedly for the wear and tear caused by electric vehicles on UK roads they really shouldn't be.

"The tax applies to UK-registered EVs, regardless of where in the world the vehicle is driven.

EVs registered abroad but are driven in the UK are exempt from the charge."

A la BBZ....

[jim89]

Just now, lesapandre said:

They are going to be tracked outside the UK? Seems incredible.

There may be legal ramifications to using it outside the UK - under other jurisdictions where privacy laws may be different...

We are watching you Mr Bond...

I wonder what system they are going to use to track? GPS? Or one of the other suppliers? And abroad...

The appointed contractor doing this for government could nominate Starlink...

The mileometer on your dash?

[jim89]

Just now, lesapandre said:

When you go for a MoT? Maybe? 

Could beeee!

[jim89]

Just now, jim89 said:

Could beeee!

"The government is now consulting on exactly how the scheme will work."

Can kicked.

[jim89]

2 minutes ago, lesapandre said:

Government also consulting on:

How to make pigs fly...

How to get an elephant out of a room...

Is the earth flat...

How to tax pigs that fly, elephants being put in rooms, whilst awaiting Vlad & Trump's lead on making earth flatter 💣

[andrew e]

Remember the 2018 ECALL directive? I’d imagine the data on how many miles we have been doing already exists on servers.

https://www.racfoundation.org/research/safety/spoiler-alert-is-the-ecall-emergency-alerting-system-fulfilling-its-road-safety-promise

[Zelandeth]

The data is already there and already on someone's servers.  The amount of telematics data gathered silently in the background in the majority of moderns makes the insurance black boxes look utterly pointless.  The reality is that we live in a world where cars need an internet connection to decide whether you've paid your subscription to use the heated seats or the full power engine map (I wish I was kidding), so the car tracking it's mileage and phoning it home really isn't difficult.

Setting it up to work really isn't rocket science either.  Just needs an account of some sort linking an individual or organisation to a vehicle ID just like a tax account through HMRC's online portal, and a back end system to aggregate the data and issue a charge for the relevant amount.  

If there's no telematics available, the data could also be pulled from the MOT database as a fallback as folks have mentioned.  Yes some folks will come up with workarounds - but that is always going to be the case.  Just like some folks consider road tax, MOTs and insurance to be optional.  If the system works quietly in the background the vast majority of users will just get on with their lives and after a lot of initially vocal complaints it'll just become another direct debit that goes out each month and never gets a second thought.

It was always going to go this way for EVs I reckon, especially as about 99.4% of the systems to run it already exist, they just need to be connected together.  Yes it sucks if you bought one when they were subject to zero rated VED, but honestly anyone who thought that something like this wasn't going to happen was in dream land in my view.  If anything I'm surprised it's taken this long.

Of course whether those involved can actually *make* it work is a totally different kettle of fish, and is a discussion I'm not getting into!

[N19]

8 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

The data is already there and already on someone's servers.  The amount of telematics data gathered silently in the background in the majority of moderns makes the insurance black boxes look utterly pointless.  The reality is that we live in a world where cars need an internet connection to decide whether you've paid your subscription to use the heated seats or the full power engine map (I wish I was kidding), so the car tracking it's mileage and phoning it home really isn't difficult.

Setting it up to work really isn't rocket science either.  Just needs an account of some sort linking an individual or organisation to a vehicle ID just like a tax account through HMRC's online portal, and a back end system to aggregate the data and issue a charge for the relevant amount.  

If there's no telematics available, the data could also be pulled from the MOT database as a fallback as folks have mentioned.  Yes some folks will come up with workarounds - but that is always going to be the case.  Just like some folks consider road tax, MOTs and insurance to be optional.  If the system works quietly in the background the vast majority of users will just get on with their lives and after a lot of initially vocal complaints it'll just become another direct debit that goes out each month and never gets a second thought.

It was always going to go this way for EVs I reckon, especially as about 99.4% of the systems to run it already exist, they just need to be connected together.  Yes it sucks if you bought one when they were subject to zero rated VED, but honestly anyone who thought that something like this wasn't going to happen was in dream land in my view.  If anything I'm surprised it's taken this long.

Of course whether those involved can actually *make* it work is a totally different kettle of fish, and is a discussion I'm not getting into!

I agree with all of this. Free VED for EV's (like the c-charge) was always like the INTRODUCTORY OFFER on a Hatchette Partwork where the first few editions were 49p and then editions 3-100 were £12.99 each.

I suppose if moderns all 'phone home' then it only leaves older cars which would need manual reporting via the MoT mileage. I know that it isn't replacing VED (yet) but if it did, it may be cheaper for those with bigger fleets (i.e. if you do 10,000 miles spread over 5 vehicles now you're paying 5 sets of VED, if you do it with 1 vehicle you only pay 1... if they changed the system over, you'd pay the same, thus justifying buying more shite).

[RoverFolkUs]

An email has been sent out to MOT testers stating the current plans which are to have drivers report their mileage, they will then have to visit an MOT station to have it checked and validated. This includes cars less than 3 years old, so it sounds like it may be necessary to visit every year. 

The checks would be government funded, not driver funded. 

[Zelandeth]

8 minutes ago, RoverFolkUs said:

An email has been sent out to MOT testers stating the current plans which are to have drivers report their mileage, they will then have to visit an MOT station to have it checked and validated. This includes cars less than 3 years old, so it sounds like it may be necessary to visit every year. 

The checks would be government funded, not driver funded. 

Fair enough.  That's probably the simplest way to do it from a technical perspective.  Though pain in the arse for the testers who already have too much work to do without wasting half an hour checking and entering someone's mileage into a computer.

[Mrcento]

24 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Fair enough.  That's probably the simplest way to do it from a technical perspective.  Though pain in the arse for the testers who already have too much work to do without wasting half an hour checking and entering someone's mileage into a computer.

Going by how many cars have an MOT history with at least one obviously incorrect mileage entered by the tester, it's only a matter of time before somebody doing an average mileage gets a nasty surprise of a £3000+ tax bill (+ possibly a fine for misreporting if any of it's driver submitted) because the system has wrongly been told they've driven over 90,000 miles in the past year by an MOT tester that really don't want to be wasting time doing more admin work for the UK Government, having a quick glance and missing a decimal place, or duplicating a number by mistake.

[sheffcortinacentre]

3 hours ago, lesapandre said:

They are going to be tracked outside the UK? Seems incredible.

There may be legal ramifications to using it outside the UK - under other jurisdictions where privacy laws may be different...

We are watching you Mr Bond...

I wonder what system they are going to use to track? GPS? Or one of the other suppliers? And abroad...

The appointed contractor doing this for government could nominate Starlink...

Skynet, ah you'll all scoff. But it's coming.

 

Also your all forgetting one significant thing.

The cash cow motorist is the easiest income source,

legally has to give all his details,

has a tantrum but soon forgets,

The few defaulters are far outweighed by the above,

The exempt are a drop in the ocean again outweighed by above.

This will make up any deficit plus a bit extra.

[Metal Guru]

The 3p a mile will just be the start. Road pricing will follow costing a fortune for busy roads at peak times . (M6 toll is nearly 40p / mile).

[New POD]

10 hours ago, cobblers said:

It's about £30-80 on aliexpress for a mileage blocker to fit the majority of modern cars. Invisibly plugs into the dash cluster, and only adds on 1/10th of the miles you do (or whatever fraction you decide)

I'm all for it! Bring on mileage based tax for all vehicles! 

How would it work for hire cars ? 

[catsinthewelder]

1 hour ago, New POD said:

How would it work for hire cars ? 

I imagine, like adblue, it will be another cost to the rental company that'll need to be passed on by increasing the daily hire rate.

[sierraman]

7 hours ago, RoverFolkUs said:

An email has been sent out to MOT testers stating the current plans which are to have drivers report their mileage, they will then have to visit an MOT station to have it checked and validated. This includes cars less than 3 years old, so it sounds like it may be necessary to visit every year. 

The checks would be government funded, not driver funded. 

Then I give the MOT tester £50 and he agrees with me it’s only done 3000 miles this year. 😂

Out of interest, how much will the government expect to pay the MOT tester for his time? Will it be set at a figure that causes him a loss like the MOT? 

[chadders]

9 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

The data is already there and already on someone's servers.  The amount of telematics data gathered silently in the background in the majority of moderns makes the insurance black boxes look utterly pointless.  The reality is that we live in a world where cars need an internet connection to decide whether you've paid your subscription to use the heated seats or the full power engine map (I wish I was kidding), so the car tracking it's mileage and phoning it home really isn't difficult.

Setting it up to work really isn't rocket science either.  Just needs an account of some sort linking an individual or organisation to a vehicle ID just like a tax account through HMRC's online portal, and a back end system to aggregate the data and issue a charge for the relevant amount.  

If there's no telematics available, the data could also be pulled from the MOT database as a fallback as folks have mentioned.  Yes some folks will come up with workarounds - but that is always going to be the case.  Just like some folks consider road tax, MOTs and insurance to be optional.  If the system works quietly in the background the vast majority of users will just get on with their lives and after a lot of initially vocal complaints it'll just become another direct debit that goes out each month and never gets a second thought.

It was always going to go this way for EVs I reckon, especially as about 99.4% of the systems to run it already exist, they just need to be connected together.  Yes it sucks if you bought one when they were subject to zero rated VED, but honestly anyone who thought that something like this wasn't going to happen was in dream land in my view.  If anything I'm surprised it's taken this long.

Of course whether those involved can actually *make* it work is a totally different kettle of fish, and is a discussion I'm not getting into!

In my experience with systems of this size it's the connecting together that is always the problem even if the software is from the same vendor.

[captain_70s]

7 hours ago, sierraman said:

Then I give the MOT tester £50 and he agrees with me it’s only done 3000 miles this year. 😂

Of all the things the government takes a dim view on the top spot has to be tax fraud...

Surely the average modern car records so much data it'd be obvious if mileage was being misreported or modified? Especially as all new stuff is going to be semi-permanently online.

Given most new cars are on lease I'd imagine there being a big incentive towards not invalidating the warranty on your £50k car for the sake of £300 a year by paying somebody £50 to bypass the odo...

[EyesWeldedShut]

5 hours ago, chadders said:

In my experience with systems of this size it's the connecting together that is always the problem even if the software is from the same vendor.

OBD plug  - whack a WiFi enable dongle in there, zap the ECU information over to the testing station laptop  - sorted?

I can't see any standard EV not having an OBD. I can see a testing stations pushing for a decent amount for doing the readout though?

[Tayne]

14 hours ago, Mrcento said:

Going by how many cars have an MOT history with at least one obviously incorrect mileage entered by the tester, it's only a matter of time before somebody doing an average mileage gets a nasty surprise of a £3000+ tax bill (+ possibly a fine for misreporting if any of it's driver submitted) because the system has wrongly been told they've driven over 90,000 miles in the past year by an MOT tester that really don't want to be wasting time doing more admin work for the UK Government, having a quick glance and missing a decimal place, or duplicating a number by mistake.

There’s an H2 sorn’d on a driveway near me, it has a very slight mileage discrepancy…

 

 

 

Thats £20k in ppm tax.

[sierraman]

23 minutes ago, captain_70s said:

Of all the things the government takes a dim view on the top spot has to be tax fraud...

Surely the average modern car records so much data it'd be obvious if mileage was being misreported or modified? Especially as all new stuff is going to be semi-permanently online.

Given most new cars are on lease I'd imagine there being a big incentive towards not invalidating the warranty on your £50k car for the sake of £300 a year by paying somebody £50 to bypass the odo...

You really would be surprised. It’s a bit like modifications within warranty or the number of people that remap them whilst it’s on lease for example.