The "WTF is that?" thread

[bunglebus]

6 minutes ago, adw1977 said:

Probably the first car to have square headlights, does anyone know of an earlier example?

Yeah - the 1938 Graham....

[Madman Of The People]

On 17/01/2024 at 18:17, barrett said:

There's a connection. The next generation Graham in 1940 used obsolete Cord body dies, with a restyled front end, but on a rear-wheel drive platform. Called the Graham Hollywood, which I always thought sounded like a cruise ship comedian or a local radio DJ

Edit to add: I wonder if this is the only case of a car being replaced by a design which was older than the one it was replacing?

 

Some more history nobody asked for:  There was also a badge-engineered version called the Hupmobile Skylark.

From Wikipedia:  Desperate for a return to market strength, on February 8, 1938, Hupmobile acquired the production dies of the Gordon Buehrig-designed Cord 810, paying US$900,000 for the tooling.  Hupmobile hoped using the striking Cord design in a lower-priced conventional car, called the Skylark, would return the company to financial health. Enthusiastic orders came in by the thousands, but production delays soured customer support.  Lacking adequate production facilities, Hupmobile partnered with the ailing Graham-Paige Motor Co. to share the Cord dies. Hupmobile and Graham both sold similar models, all to be built at Graham-Paige's facilities. While each marque used its own power train, the Graham edition, called the Hollywood, differed from the Skylark in a few minor details.  In 1939, deliveries of the Hupmobile Skylark finally began.   Unfortunately, it had taken too many years to produce and most of the orders had been canceled. Production lasted only a couple of months, and only 319 Skylarks were produced. Hupmobile ceased production in late summer. Graham-Paige suspended production shortly after the last Hupmobile rolled off the line.

 

Hupmobile Skylark

 

[MiniMinorMk3]

I've had a Brooklin of the 1939 Graham Combination Coupe

[skoda_fan]

On 19/01/2024 at 00:39, Madman Of The People said:

 

Some more history nobody asked for:  There was also a badge-engineered version called the Hupmobile Skylark.

From Wikipedia:  Desperate for a return to market strength, on February 8, 1938, Hupmobile acquired the production dies of the Gordon Buehrig-designed Cord 810, paying US$900,000 for the tooling.  Hupmobile hoped using the striking Cord design in a lower-priced conventional car, called the Skylark, would return the company to financial health. Enthusiastic orders came in by the thousands, but production delays soured customer support.  Lacking adequate production facilities, Hupmobile partnered with the ailing Graham-Paige Motor Co. to share the Cord dies. Hupmobile and Graham both sold similar models, all to be built at Graham-Paige's facilities. While each marque used its own power train, the Graham edition, called the Hollywood, differed from the Skylark in a few minor details.  In 1939, deliveries of the Hupmobile Skylark finally began.   Unfortunately, it had taken too many years to produce and most of the orders had been canceled. Production lasted only a couple of months, and only 319 Skylarks were produced. Hupmobile ceased production in late summer. Graham-Paige suspended production shortly after the last Hupmobile rolled off the line.

Thanks for that post. I had no idea the Cord dies were used by these other companies in this way. More Googling required methinks. Every day a school day.....Btw this reminds me of another recent discovery (well it was news to me), namely that the Studebaker Golden Hawk (the one we all had a Corgi of) was also produced in a (hideous) Packard version.

Edited January 20 by skoda_fan
Info added

[martc]

On 18/01/2024 at 21:23, adw1977 said:

Probably the first car to have square headlights, does anyone know of an earlier example?

The Ruxton Model A from 1929, and later models, had pretty bonkers headlights, but not quite square, more triangular ish. Now Ruxton is a marque I'd never heard of, plenty of info here - 

https://automedia.revsinstitute.org/the-mythical-ruxton-the-greatest-american-car-that-never-really-was

 

[bunglebus]

[Tayne]

Scamp?

Mini based kit car.

[MiniMinorMk3]

3 hours ago, bunglebus said:

 

2 hours ago, Tayne said:

Scamp?

Mini based kit car.

Yep, it looks like a Mk1 Scamp that's had oblong headlamps stuck in the front wings.

 

[Austat]

What's this? Lancia?

[artdjones]

1 hour ago, Austat said:

What's this? Lancia?

A Lancia Flaminia.

[MiniMinorMk3]

3 hours ago, Austat said:

What's this? Lancia?

 

1 hour ago, artdjones said:

A Lancia Flaminia.

Yes Lancia Flaminia GT with bodywork by Touring of Milan.

[barrett]

On 20/01/2024 at 19:48, martc said:

The Ruxton Model A from 1929, and later models, had pretty bonkers headlights, but not quite square, more triangular ish. Now Ruxton is a marque I'd never heard of, plenty of info here - 

https://automedia.revsinstitute.org/the-mythical-ruxton-the-greatest-american-car-that-never-really-was

 

They're 'Woodlite' headlamps, which were an aftermarket accessory popular in the 1930s and in the early days of hot-rodding. I think the Ruxton was the only car to use them as standard. Fun fact: the Ruxton uses the same body as the Wolseley Messenger

[chaseracer]

10 hours ago, MiniMinorMk3 said:

 

Yes Lancia Flaminia GT with bodywork by Touring of Milan.

Well-known for faking Aston DB4 Volantes shortly before being thrown off an Alp.

[High Jetter]

1 hour ago, barrett said:

They're 'Woodlite' headlamps, which were an aftermarket accessory popular in the 1930s and in the early days of hot-rodding. I think the Ruxton was the only car to use them as standard. Fun fact: the Ruxton uses the same body as the Wolseley Messenger

Early double-end Woolarding, less popular in modern times.

[Pieman]

On 20/01/2024 at 19:48, martc said:

The Ruxton Model A from 1929, and later models, had pretty bonkers headlights, but not quite square, more triangular ish. Now Ruxton is a marque I'd never heard of, plenty of info here - 

https://automedia.revsinstitute.org/the-mythical-ruxton-the-greatest-american-car-that-never-really-was

 

Offtopic - are there any of those in the UK, does anyone know?  I've never seen one in the metal, and they are such beautiful cars I'd really love to have a proper look at one.

[martc]

3 minutes ago, Pieman said:

Offtopic - are there any of those in the UK, does anyone know?  I've never seen one in the metal, and they are such beautiful cars I'd really love to have a proper look at one.

Sorry, probably not -

Although the one in Finland is quite close, and they cannot account for some, and the post was in 2008....

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/110805-ruxton-automobiles/

[Jon]

On 18/01/2024 at 13:17, barrett said:

Edit to add: I wonder if this is the only case of a car being replaced by a design which was older than the one it was replacing?

IF you allow a light van to be included in this conundrum, then may I add:

1985 Bedford Midi

 

Replaced by the Vauxhall Arena in 1997 - aka a rehashed 1980* Renault Trafic.

A little bit of inaccurate licence applied here, as the Midi was a rebadged Isuzu Fargo, which I knew was launched prior to '85; turns out it was launched in 1980, also! And the Arena was based on the facelifted Trafic, launched after the Midi. But the structure of the van is still the same, really.

And from what I can gather the Fargo was launched in December 1980 and the Trafic launched August 1980. So a close call but I think it'd still apply.

So theoretically, someone could've bought an early Trafic, replaced it with a Midi in '85, then kept loyal to the (by now) Vauxhall brand and replaced it over a decade later, with a freshly launched version of a van they'd bought new 15 or so years prior!

[quicksilver]

11 hours ago, Jon said:

IF you allow a light van to be included in this conundrum, then may I add:

1985 Bedford Midi

 

Replaced by the Vauxhall Arena in 1997 - aka a rehashed 1980* Renault Trafic.

A little bit of inaccurate licence applied here, as the Midi was a rebadged Isuzu Fargo, which I knew was launched prior to '85; turns out it was launched in 1980, also! And the Arena was based on the facelifted Trafic, launched after the Midi. But the structure of the van is still the same, really.

And from what I can gather the Fargo was launched in December 1980 and the Trafic launched August 1980. So a close call but I think it'd still apply.

So theoretically, someone could've bought an early Trafic, replaced it with a Midi in '85, then kept loyal to the (by now) Vauxhall brand and replaced it over a decade later, with a freshly launched version of a van they'd bought new 15 or so years prior!

And if we're going down that route, how about the Austin A35 van (launched 1954) being replaced in 1968 by a rebadged Morris Minor van (launched 1953)?

[Missy Charm]

11 hours ago, Jon said:

IF you allow a light van to be included in this conundrum, then may I add:

1985 Bedford Midi

 

Replaced by the Vauxhall Arena in 1997 - aka a rehashed 1980* Renault Trafic.

A little bit of inaccurate licence applied here, as the Midi was a rebadged Isuzu Fargo, which I knew was launched prior to '85; turns out it was launched in 1980, also! And the Arena was based on the facelifted Trafic, launched after the Midi. But the structure of the van is still the same, really.

And from what I can gather the Fargo was launched in December 1980 and the Trafic launched August 1980. So a close call but I think it'd still apply.

So theoretically, someone could've bought an early Trafic, replaced it with a Midi in '85, then kept loyal to the (by now) Vauxhall brand and replaced it over a decade later, with a freshly launched version of a van they'd bought new 15 or so years prior!

Would the Triumph 1500 TC be an example of that sort of thing?  It was a continuation of the Toledo/Dolomite family main line and killed off the 'newer' range of front-wheel drive Triumphs.  

On similar lines, the German 12M Ford Taunus was replaced by the Taunus TC Cortina, which is familiar to us as the Mk3 Cortina.  The TC was a development of the earlier Dagenham Cortina, and quite different in some ways, but it a descendant the same family - ideas-wise, there were no doubt claims of an 'all-new' Cortina at the time.  The 12M Taunus was a very different proposition, being front wheel drive and V4 powered.  One might argue that the 12M was much closer in spirit to the far later Mk3 Escort than the English Mk2 Cortina. 

Or perhaps these are examples of technology going backwards!

[barrett]

suspect this might keep me from ever sleeping again. (re-)posted on a 'specials' group on facebook, but It's obviously not an 'off the peg' job and I do not think it's a special at all, but some sort of prototype. Look at the construction of the sills and the fully boxed-in inner wings, and the door handle recession. It does seem to be on Ford wheels, though. The registration is apparently 1955-56 Middlesex. The car is obviously photographed some time after it was built (in metal, not GRP) and it's lived a hard life in that time (of testing?). I reckon those buildings are light industrial rather than residential so this could be the courtyard of a small factory somewhere. But the biggest WTF is what's visible through the grille opening.

I'd say that certainly is not a conventional engine of any type I can think of. What is that finned circular casing all about? Could it be a toroidal engine??? I am going a bit insane knowing there's a car out there which I can't identify.

[Tayne]

It has the look of a Ford 100e to me and, whilst I can't find any matching images, that engine seems reminiscent of 2CVs and Morgans so i'd be guessing at an aircooled flat twin.

That might also explain the air scoops. 

[Mr Pastry]

Are you sure those are Ford wheels?  100E has a larger PCD, Consul are 5 stud, and it's too early for 105E which are also a different style.

[LightBulbFun]

38 minutes ago, barrett said:

suspect this might keep me from ever sleeping again. (re-)posted on a 'specials' group on facebook, but It's obviously not an 'off the peg' job and I do not think it's a special at all, but some sort of prototype. Look at the construction of the sills and the fully boxed-in inner wings, and the door handle recession. It does seem to be on Ford wheels, though. The registration is apparently 1955-56 Middlesex. The car is obviously photographed some time after it was built (in metal, not GRP) and it's lived a hard life in that time (of testing?). I reckon those buildings are light industrial rather than residential so this could be the courtyard of a small factory somewhere. But the biggest WTF is what's visible through the grille opening.

I'd say that certainly is not a conventional engine of any type I can think of. What is that finned circular casing all about? Could it be a toroidal engine??? I am going a bit insane knowing there's a car out there which I can't identify.

I wonder if that could be an industrial engine of some sort?

it reminds me in some regards of the Villiers industrial engine trialed in the Invacar Mk9

[sheffcortinacentre]

5 hours ago, Tayne said:

It has the look of a Ford 100e to me and, whilst I can't find any matching images, that engine seems reminiscent of 2CVs and Morgans so i'd be guessing at an aircooled flat twin.

That might also explain the air scoops. 

I'd agree re wheels not being ford.

[Mr Pastry]

The circular thing inside the air intake is making us think air cooling.  It appears to have a central shaft but surely that is too high to be the nose of the crankshaft, so it would have to be on a camshaft, dynamo, or idler shaft - it's not VW,  Panhard used that layout but it didn't look like that, can't think of another.

Alternatively -  it is water cooled with a large radiator projecting up into the bonnet bulge, and the circular device is a cooling fan motor, ex aero or industrial as cars didn't generally have electric fans then.

Windscreen does look 100E ish. or early Hillman Minx.  But they are not early Minx wheels, which would have been 16" 3 stud.

None of which helps very much!

[RayMK]

Strange indeed!  I could not find anything similar from the engines of motorcycles, scooters or cars.  Could it be a finned exposed magneto/flywheel?

[Mr Pastry]

19 minutes ago, RayMK said:

Strange indeed!  I could not find anything similar from the engines of motorcycles, scooters or cars.  Could it be a finned exposed magneto/flywheel?

Looking at the condition of the car, I wonder if it was awaiting the scrap man and the thing under the bonnet is a totally unrelated  piece of scrap which has just been shoved in there.

[lesapandre]

13 hours ago, barrett said:

suspect this might keep me from ever sleeping again. (re-)posted on a 'specials' group on facebook, but It's obviously not an 'off the peg' job and I do not think it's a special at all, but some sort of prototype. Look at the construction of the sills and the fully boxed-in inner wings, and the door handle recession. It does seem to be on Ford wheels, though. The registration is apparently 1955-56 Middlesex. The car is obviously photographed some time after it was built (in metal, not GRP) and it's lived a hard life in that time (of testing?). I reckon those buildings are light industrial rather than residential so this could be the courtyard of a small factory somewhere. But the biggest WTF is what's visible through the grille opening.

I'd say that certainly is not a conventional engine of any type I can think of. What is that finned circular casing all about? Could it be a toroidal engine??? I am going a bit insane knowing there's a car out there which I can't identify.

 As (F)MH is a London North-East (used for Middlesex before 1965) registration could it be a Berkeley prototype - they were based at Biggleswade or a Fairthorpe based at Chalfont St. Peter?

[ETCHY]

13 hours ago, barrett said:

suspect this might keep me from ever sleeping again. (re-)posted on a 'specials' group on facebook, but It's obviously not an 'off the peg' job and I do not think it's a special at all, but some sort of prototype. Look at the construction of the sills and the fully boxed-in inner wings, and the door handle recession. It does seem to be on Ford wheels, though. The registration is apparently 1955-56 Middlesex. The car is obviously photographed some time after it was built (in metal, not GRP) and it's lived a hard life in that time (of testing?). I reckon those buildings are light industrial rather than residential so this could be the courtyard of a small factory somewhere. But the biggest WTF is what's visible through the grille opening.

I'd say that certainly is not a conventional engine of any type I can think of. What is that finned circular casing all about? Could it be a toroidal engine??? I am going a bit insane knowing there's a car out there which I can't identify.

It has the look of a Fairthorp or an Ashley but Berkeley is a good shout. Although not sure it's any of those.

Bloody annoying not knowing !

[lesapandre]

Windscreen could well be off the Ford Prefect/Popular 100E? Which would account for the high roof height.