invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[Talbot]

The field of invacars where @dollywobbler picked up TPA and TWC from had several that had their roof removed like the one above.  It seems to come off like a hard-top would, hinting at the car* having been designed for that function.  Seems like a very odd thing to design in to an invalid carriage.  Unless it was intended to have a canvas roof perhaps?

Reading through the technical information on these, it's genuinely a bit interesting as to how they were engineered, and it's impressive that so much work went into making something that was so unsafe and essentially unfit for purpose.

[crad]

18 minutes ago, Sheefag said:

Probably this one, courtesy of @trigger of this parish.

 

that's epic tbf

[Dick Cheeseburger]

13 minutes ago, Talbot said:

 it's impressive that so much work went into making something that was so unsafe and essentially unfit for purpose.

If I hadn't read the thread title, I'd assume you're talking about the Ford Ecoboom lump. 

[LightBulbFun]

10 hours ago, wuvvum said:

Isn't a Model 67 basically a Model 70 with a Villiers engine?  They certainly look pretty similar to me.

the similar looking Body is about where the similarities end, you can think of the Model 67, as a Model 57 with the Body of a Model 70, or in some ways you can think of the Model 67, as the SRT London Bus of the Invalid Vehicle world, the Model 67 was more of a stop gap machine for AC to ensure they remained current with the Ministry specifications (same reason the Invacar Mk12 moved from 5 inch headlights to 7 inch headlights for example), and AC only produced 5928 of them, compare this to the 13,000+ Invacar Mk12's, 13,155 AC Acedes Model 57, or the 18,150 Model 70's AC/Invacar Jointly produced

the start of development of the Model 70 actually pre-dates the Model 67, by 1967, Model 70 Prototype 5 was on the road under a PPL-E registration mark, the first Production Model 67 is thought to be RPA451E

10 hours ago, crad said:

@LightBulbFun was there ever a 'best' / 'peak' invacar? (am I right in thinking that invacar is the overall name for the invalid carriages?) .

that would be the Model 70, it was designed from the ground up to be the end all and be all of Invalid Carriages, a completely new and improved design to replace all the Villiers machines that came before it  @Zelandeth has a good piece on his website that quickly summarises things

https://zelandeth.org/cars/ac-model-70/index.htm

10 hours ago, artdjones said:

The Invacar is a typical Civil Servant's answer to a problem.

If they had got some decent engineers to develop various different hand controls for a Morris Minor, ordered up several thousand cars from Morris at a fleet rate, and piggybacked servicing, spares and repairs onto the Morris Motors service network, it would probably have cost no more than providing Invacars.

And the disabled would have been able to drive a decent car instead of a flimsy death trap.

people seem to forget that the DHSS/NHS did supply regular adapted cars alongside Invacars, which I have talked about in these 2 links here  they went as far as suppling Renault 4's because of the unique adaptable that had by way of its dash mounted gear-change 

https://autoshite.com/topic/32723-lightbulbfuns-invacar-general-ramble-thread-index-on-page-1-survivors-lists-on-pages-24134-adgecutlers-invacar-mk12-restoration-from-page-186-onwards-still-harping-on/page/267/#comment-2562778

https://autoshite.com/topic/32723-lightbulbfuns-invacar-general-ramble-thread-index-on-page-1-survivors-lists-on-pages-24134-adgecutlers-invacar-mk12-restoration-from-page-186-onwards-still-harping-on/page/348/#comment-2932579

but the problem is, theres only so far you can take a regular car, the thing about the Model 70 and the machines that came before it, is they there explicitly designed for the disabled and to be adaptable to their requirements 

10 hours ago, wuvvum said:

I dunno, I think you might have struggled to get a Moggy to be as suitable for disabled drivers.  They were never available with an auto 'box for one thing.  A better approach would have been to design an invalid carriage from scratch, as they did, but make it a bit more like a "proper" car.

this is where this sort of falls flat on its face, because to design a car specifically for disabled people, its always going to look a bit off-beat in some regard, in the same way for example Disabled toilets are not the same as regular toilets, to pick a random every-day example, and im sure that if they where issued en-mass, the same sort of social stigma and ridicule would of happened,  in the same way you see a Honda Jazz and you immediately think "Old Giffer"

[adw1977]

2 hours ago, richardmorris said:

Now that’s one of those words that haven’t been used since the 1970s. 

The Spastics Society only changed its name to Scope in 1994.

[LightBulbFun]

25 minutes ago, Talbot said:

The field of invacars where @dollywobbler picked up TPA and TWC from had several that had their roof removed like the one above.  It seems to come off like a hard-top would, hinting at the car* having been designed for that function.  Seems like a very odd thing to design in to an invalid carriage.  Unless it was intended to have a canvas roof perhaps?

Reading through the technical information on these, it's genuinely a bit interesting as to how they were engineered, and it's impressive that so much work went into making something that was so unsafe and essentially unfit for purpose.

I believe the removable roof is just happy accident, as I understand it, its easier on production of fibreglass vehicles to to make several different sections and bolt em all together, then try and make it one giant lump, also makes it easier for repair, if you find yourself quite litreally wrapped around a set of traffic lights for example  

this Model 70 would of just needed a new nose section fitted and then it could go back to its user

here is a NOS unused Model 70 body shell to show how they came apart/went together  I am still hoping at some point to get this 3D scanned in high resolution for preservation sake

but the roof is not designed to be user removable, its held down by many many bolts front and back

[wuvvum]

5 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

this is where this sort of falls flat on its face, because to design a car specifically for disabled people, its always going to look a bit off-beat in some regard, in the same way for example Disabled toilets are not the same as regular toilets, to pick a random every-day example, and im sure that if they where issued en-mass, the same sort of social stigma and ridicule would of happened,  in the same way you see a Honda Jazz and you immediately think "Old Giffer"

That's a valid point to an extent - a vehicle designed specifically for the disabled is always going to carry a certain amount of social stigma, at least in some circles.  It would have alleviated a lot of the concerns around safety though, and made them less likely to be turned on their sides by pissheads.

[warren t claim]

1 minute ago, wuvvum said:

That's a valid point to an extent - a vehicle designed specifically for the disabled is always going to carry a certain amount of social stigma, at least in some circles.  It would have alleviated a lot of the concerns around safety though, and made them less likely to be turned on their sides by pissheads.

Having a single seat car would be no use to a disabled driver with a family.

[Snake Charmer]

1 hour ago, Christine said:

Fatal accidents , gammy legs , 2 cylinder motors . It is all on topic 

What was Walker driving?

Mercedes-Benz 300SL.

[crad]

12 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

 

 

looks like a lego set

 

which makes me wonder...

[Snake Charmer]

12 minutes ago, warren t claim said:

Having a single seat car would be no use to a disabled driver with a family.

Great excuse for escaping the family to the pub. 😊

[LightBulbFun]

43 minutes ago, Talbot said:

Reading through the technical information on these, it's genuinely a bit interesting as to how they were engineered, and it's impressive that so much work went into making something that was so unsafe and essentially unfit for purpose.

I would argue thats a bit unfair, they where designed to mobilise the disabled people of the way, designed from the ground up to be driven by a disabled person, almost no matter what that persons disability was 

and in that regard, I think they served their purpose very well, they certainly got the disabled masses on the move, and enjoy a sense of freedom once more, many disabled people where very happy with their Invalid vehicles because of this 

here is an original Invacar, the 2nd one off the production line in-fact  this type even back then in the late 1940's could be had for 1 handed control (this was in fact Invacar's Ace, they where they first ones to come up with a Petrol machine that could be entirely 1 hand controlled, before then you where relegated to Slow electric Machines like the Stanley Argson), 

show me another car from the 1940's to the 1970's which you could drive with just 1 singular hand, you could literally be the Hand from Adams family and still drive a Model 70  

or show me another car that you can drive *standing up*  

[High Jetter]

8 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

 

 

That looks scary! What's the scooter tho?

[LightBulbFun]

1 minute ago, High Jetter said:

That looks scary! What's the scooter tho?

I think its a Welbike

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welbike

or derivative of 

[st185cs]

27 minutes ago, crad said:

looks like a lego set

 

which makes me wonder...

My Lego set in this instance 😉 (Barry’s eBay photo)

[plasticvandan]

5 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

I think its a Welbike

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welbike

or derivative of 

It's a Brockhouse Corgi. Though often confused with the welbike,it actually shares no components with it,but is a development of the concept by col.Dolphin, who designed the welbike which Excelsior was contracted to build during ww2. The Corgi was wildly successful for a few years immediate post war until Vespas etc started appearing and people could get more for their money,I've owned 9 of them,brilliant machines if poorly made,typical example of post war rationing and material shortages.

[Christine]

Superior knowledge there Dan . Good job you WERE able to correct LBFs confusion 

[Mally]

11 hours ago, warren t claim said:

Just look at the quality of those acts!

Pretty sure I've seen the Black Abbots there.

Definitely  seen Davidson there, more than once.

 

[big_al_granvia]

i looked at the interior pic and thought , no leg protection, but then again how many drivers had legs..

[chadders]

31 minutes ago, Mally said:

Pretty sure I've seen the Black Abbots there.

Definitely  seen Davidson there, more than once.

 

He was there again this year.

[LightBulbFun]

10 hours ago, D.E said:

I can't find a bigger/better pic atm, but modified Dafs (which were always autoboxes anyway) with hand controls were a popular choice among disabled drivers.

as an excerpt from my posts on Ministry issued regular cars, the Ministry did actually trial DAF 33's as part of their adapted regular car scheme  

[Sheefag]

11 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

this Model 70 would of just needed a new nose section fitted and then it could go back to its user

That single photograph tells very little about the damage wrought as a result of the collision.

Having looked at the chassis, steering and front suspension setup in the area which has taken the brunt of the impact, I rather suspect the damage underneath the fibreglass to be considerably more extensive, potentially with some twisted box sections.

[Mally]

3 hours ago, chadders said:

He was there again this year.

Did he not own  the theatre on the Pier at one time? Used to have Jethro on a lot.

[Mally]

2 hours ago, Sheefag said:

That single photograph tells very little about the damage wrought as a result of the collision.

Having looked at the chassis, steering and front suspension setup in the area which has taken the brunt of the impact, I rather suspect the damage underneath the fibreglass to be considerably more extensive, potentially with some twisted box sections.

Seems to me that the body and chassis did it's job.

I'd like to know why the driver didn't go through the windscreen.

[MiniMinorMk3]

17 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

I like this shot as its said to be in the East of London somewhere, also bonus 2CV sneaking into the lineup of Invacars for @dollywobbler  

 

https://www.deutschefotothek.de/documents/obj/71874530

 

 

 

16 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

@LightBulbFunAny idea on the location of the East London photo?  From the look of things it must be outside an approved repairer's place.

The London area for 476 numbers was Albert Dock.

[Snake Charmer]

43 minutes ago, Mally said:

Seems to me that the body and chassis did it's job.

I'd like to know why the driver didn't go through the windscreen.

The driver probably sustained 'light' injuries.

[chadders]

1 hour ago, Mally said:

Did he not own  the theatre on the Pier at one time? Used to have Jethro on a lot.

I think that he did.

[Sheefag]

1 hour ago, Mally said:

Seems to me that the body and chassis did it's job.

I'd like to know why the driver didn't go through the windscreen.

Perhaps he wasn't in it at the time.

[Talbot]

14 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

 

 

 

That photo somewhat highlights the point I am making about safety.  The GRP has offered almost no impact adsorption and instead of deflecting the vehicle away from the lamp post, it has totally failed and allowed intrusion into the body area.  Looking at the thickness of the GRP in that area, I suspect it was a very low speed impact, which is good news as essentially the next part of the vehicle to hit is the fuel tank and driver footwell.

This is rather what I mean about not being fit for purpose.  Given that the driver of one of these vehicles likely has reduced mobility, reduced strength and is physically disabled, putting them in a highly vulnerable vehicle that failed crash tests and was universally described as unstable doesn't really seem like a great plan.  If anything, they should be in a vehicle that is more stable and has more stopping/steering capability (IE reduced effort required) than a "normal" car.  The technology for this absolutely existed in the early 70s.  Even if the vehicle had been a unique design for a disabled person (which in itself is not a great plan) it absolutely could have had power assisted steering, power assisted brakes and hence four wheels.

They're an interesting part of history, but I hope there is no illusion about how utterly dire they were, even then.  As long as you're aware of that and drive it accordingly now.  To ignore the very real dangers here would put any driver of one in even more danger than they are already in. (a lot).

[mintwth]

20 hours ago, Christine said:

Only 80 ? So if Mike had been an invacar he would have won that race , and survived

Got me wondering what engine swaps would work. A swap to a bike engine and box could be fairly easy

A hayabusa engined invacar would be sprightly