invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[Talbot]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

ok I have seen a few posts now that base themselves off my  lack of driving experience, now obviously I do not have the 30 years of experience that most people have here,

<snip>  various other stuff about 120hrs of driving experience, with an instructor at your side </snip>

Actually, as a jet-around-london sort of vehicle, it's not dire.  There are many better options, but it's not horrific.  The main issue with you relying on it for driving around london is only that it will break down and leave you stranded, and you'll not be able to do anything about it, not be able to fix it, and not be able to then get to any form of employment (should you chose to do so).  Or be able to get it recovered.  Or get it fixed.  Safety-wise, It's likely no worse in traffic than cycling, or possibly a modern ami.  Not that either of those forms of transport are anything other than lethal.  For the record, I've no issue with driving in London, and have done it a fair bit.  It's actually not difficult, it's just bloody busy, which in general means speeds are slower, hence less safe forms of transport are not toooooo bad.

The point I'm making is about the potential for lengthier journeys.  That is asking for trouble and all of what I've said before is relevant.  Just.  Don't. Do. It.  I'll say no more than that.  This thread: https://autoshite.com/topic/12893-standards-of-driving/ should be all you need to see how at risk you would be on the open road.

Be aware that the 120hrs of experience you have is probably about 1500 miles of driving, give or take a few.  Certainly in London it's no more than 2000 miles.  I do that sort of mileage in a week on some occasions.  The point here is that you think you have road experience.  Everyone who's passed their test thinks they have road experience and are absolutely fine on the road.

 

Hint.  You have no experience at all.  It's often said that any skill needs 10,000hrs to get competent and likely 20,000hrs to be skilled.   You're currently at 1.2% of competent.  Or at least were 3 years ago when you last drove.  And have barely driven outside of a built-up area I believe?

My point here is "see the bigger picture".  Please.  For your own (relative) safety.

[R Lutz]

I think there is a lot of pent-up frustration in this thread with the apparent lack of action these past 4 years and with no set plan of when this plastic pig is likely to be driven. All it takes to bay the crowd is an actual drive of the thing. But that appears be  significantly less likely than Warren refusing a VIP pass to the Townhouse in Birkenhead. 

[BorniteIdentity]

Thank you for writing your considered posts today, @Talbot.  For some reason, whatever that is, our esteemed member seems to pay attention to you and very few others.  Whether or not it goes in? Who knows.  I hope so.

Genuinely, I will properly LOL and bip my horn if and when I see this motoring along through Hackney.  But as the nights pull in, the weather becomes wetter (it's been FERAL today in London) driving this sort of thing becomes a fucking nightmare.  I don't even bother with the Sierra or Mini once GMT appears, as it's not fun or amusing - just bleak.

 

 

[JJ0063]

Not interested in getting into arguments but one thing I will say is 120 hours of driving in an instructors car between 3 to 5 years ago is not ‘experience’.

Those 120 hours are sat in a virtually brand new car with every driver aid at your disposal, with an instructor sat holding your hand giving pointers and you as a driver giving 110% attention as you’re a new driver. 

One journey to a local chip shop in the invacar with the brake sticking on is nothing either. 
 

Not a single actual road mile being driven in the last 3 years to then being alone, in the middle of London, in a car that in itself needs you to pay extra attention to and will likely have the odd hiccup or quirk to take your eye off the actual task at hand of driving is a disaster waiting to happen.

I also thought I was competent when I passed. Driving down a main road past RAF Marham eating a McDonalds double cheeseburger whilst driving with my knees, hit some slush in the centre of the road where it’d been snowing earlier and spun my Citroen AX out. Luckily managed to push the bumper back into place and carry on but I learnt a lot in those first couple of years, and even an AX is a lot more forgiving than a tiny fibreglass 3 wheeler.
 

Im not a hater, not a bully, I’ve always tried to help where I can but it’s frustrating to see that being claimed as experience when it’s simply irrelevant.

I wish you the best of luck with it all.

[R Lutz]

17 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

I think its pretty clear from peoples attitudes and the way people take the piss out of me, and Invacars,

 

Son, let me enlighten you. People have took the piss out of Invacars since the day the were clashed together and given out by the DSS. Called from Day 1 a Spastic Chariot or similar, they were a point of ridicule for decades and an embarrassment for the vast majority of people. Quite how Seabrook made a career from them is anyone's guess. Certainly I recall him going full woke in the NEC Press Office when he was told the nickname of them, thankfully he was put in his box by those who'd lived through their dispensation.  Like it or not, that's all they were called. Nobody knew their correct name and I remember (rightly) being chastised by my mam for using the word -but I knew no better and was intrigued by the vehicles. 

Revisionists, the painfully woke and those who chose to be offended will get this post deleted, probably along with my account (again) but it needs to be said.  Those cars were a constant piss take, from foisting them on the disabled, to school kids pointing and laughing, to young drunks over turning them. DWP would be taken to the ECHR if Motab was switched exclusively to a state sponsored 3-wheeler, but that's effectively what went on. For me, celebrating these things is as acceptable as blacking-up these days. They should have been scrapped and banished as an insult. The world moves on and we should look back on these cars as a slightly dubious point in our generous history. I was there and I saw first hand the misery of these things. I spent all day on the piss on Tuesday with a mate who'd have been put into one of these 40 years. You cannot comprehend how pleased we should be at their passing. 

Thank-you for reading and I look forward to getting an account back here next year. 

[BorniteIdentity]

May I ask a question, @LightBulbFun? I’m sure you’ll ignore me or point to some strange scenario 42 years ago featuring a passing Presbyterian and a chimpanzee…

…

but what happens when (not if) you break down? Of course people will help get you to the side of the road - but then what? What’s the play? It’s good to riff this stuff out? My sierra kicks the bucket at the lights and I can push it to the side of the road and call the AA. Will they come to you? Have you a plan? 

[somewhatfoolish]

12 minutes ago, R Lutz said:

Revisionists, the painfully woke and those who chose to be offended will get this post deleted, probably along with my account (again) but it needs to be said.  Those cars were a constant piss take, from foisting them on the disabled, to school kids pointing and laughing, to young drunks over turning them. DWP would be taken to the ECHR if Motab was switched exclusively to a state sponsored 3-wheeler, but that's effectively what went on. For me, celebrating these things is as acceptable as blacking-up these days. They should have been scrapped and banished as an insult. The world moves on and we should look back on these cars as a slightly dubious point in our generous history. I was there and I saw first hand the misery of these things. I spent all day on the piss on Tuesday with a mate who'd have been put into one of these 40 years. You cannot comprehend how pleased we should be at their passing. 

They were not foisted; they were offered free and accepted by people with no other viable options. Power controls were not a thing on small cars in the 60s, so if you were disabled and couldn't control a converted Morris Minor etc. it was a Model 70 or stopping in for the rest of your life. Give the edgelording a rest, you're not any good at it.

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, Talbot said:

My point here is "see the bigger picture".  Please.  For your own (relative) safety.

which is exactly why I have repeatedly stated that my plan is to start out small and grow from there, as I stated I know that my current experience is nothing in the grand scheme of things, but I post about it, to show that, I am not going in this completely blind as people seem to think I am? 

its not like I have just got my provisional licence from the DVLA and I am sticking L plates on REV! although I have often wondered what sort of reaction I might get if I stuck "P" plates on REV  

1 hour ago, Talbot said:

The main issue with you relying on it for driving around london is only that it will break down and leave you stranded, and you'll not be able to do anything about it, not be able to fix it, and not be able to then get to any form of employment (should you chose to do so).  Or be able to get it recovered.  Or get it fixed. 

I have got breakdown cover included in my insurance, and I am pretty positive I can find a friendly garage for any big jobs that crop up, yes it is a "WTF is that" sort of vehicle on the surface, but if you dig deeper, all the mechanicals are off the shelf parts that any mechanic will understand, the suspension/rear end is Fiat 500, the brakes are all Triumph Spitfire/Herald, the wiring is Lucas standard colour codes, the engine is a well documented well supported Steyr Puch unit, I have a full Model 70 workshop manual that I have scanned and OCR'ed into a PDF that i can provide to the Garage, and I also have large stash of Model 70 specific parts as well as a network of people I can ask about if the going gets tricky, see for example how I was able to source the Model 70 specific Kingpins when it became clear that, thats what needed replacing

and this is why my plan is once i get REV to do a tour of all the local garages and physically show them that an Invacar is nothing to be scared of, and I am sure there are classic friendly garages around, just based on the amount of street-parked Autoshite around here, REV is far from alone in being the only Historic Vehicle Taxation class vehicle around here!

so with that in mind again I am sure i can find a local friendly garage for any awkward or big jobs and im otherwise not to worried about things, again I have not gone into this completely blindly,

I know that REV will be a labour of love and there might be times where it wont be plain sailing but this is exactly why I have given it lots of thought, and made sure that I have a plan/contingencies in place  (for example thankfully my brother does not live too far away from me, so if I am doing a road side job that I realise is beyond my physical abilities or a 2 person job, I can get him to help out, he has very kindly always been willing to help me out in such situations in the past)

I view in this aspect of things as little different to owning a pet cat, I mean a cat is not really good for much, you cant use one as a beast of burden thats for sure! and a cat might present you with expensive vet bills, break things around the house, or even claw one of your eyes out, but you still get a Cat because of all the joy that owning a cat otherwise brings to you (if you are a cat person) and for me REV is much the same

30 minutes ago, BorniteIdentity said:

but what happens when (not if) you break down? Of course people will help get you to the side of the road - but then what? What’s the play? It’s good to riff this stuff out? My scenario kicks the bucket at the lights and I can push it to the side of the road and call the AA. Will they come to you? Have you a plan? 

I have got breakdown cover  so depending on the nature of whats gone on, if it cant be fixed on the road side, it would be recover it home, recover it to a garage or recover it to the FoD 

[AdgeCutler]

Getting a bit tired of reading through all the dross on this thread now. However I have seen a few mentions of late of an Alvis Stalwart thread that sounds intriguing  and may pass a little reading time until this one settles back down, but, I can't find it. Anybody know what it was titled?

[lesapandre]

Autoaid or one of the breakdown services would come out to one of these as they would anything else. Some of the classic car policies have breakdown included. I'm not far away across London either and would always be happy to give assistance. It would then have to be recovered to a friendly garage - my  own tame place would be itching to get something like this in - Saarf London.

[R Lutz]

14 minutes ago, somewhatfoolish said:

They were not foisted; they were offered free and accepted by people with no other viable options. Power controls were not a thing on small cars in the 60s, so if you were disabled and couldn't control a converted Morris Minor etc. it was a Model 70 or stopping in for the rest of your life. Give the edgelording a rest, you're not any good at it.

So they had no choice: Shank's Pony or that shite? Take it or leave it? Either way, they were singled out, out on the road for being disabled. Choice is bad and all that. 

[wuvvum]

3 minutes ago, AdgeCutler said:

Getting a bit tired of reading through all the dross on this thread now. However I have seen a few mentions of late of an Alvis Stalwart thread that sounds intriguing  and may pass a little reading time until this one settles back down, but, I can't find it. Anybody know what it was titled?

I'm pretty sure it got nuked from orbit when things went south.

[BorniteIdentity]

15 minutes ago, AdgeCutler said:

Getting a bit tired of reading through all the dross on this thread now. However I have seen a few mentions of late of an Alvis Stalwart thread that sounds intriguing  and may pass a little reading time until this one settles back down, but, I can't find it. Anybody know what it was titled?

The poor sod went fucking doolally, whilst some “trusted shiters” encouraged him, despite clear red fucking flags everywhere. 

I assume he’s still in the same institution he was when it all went south. 

Genuinely. 

[BorniteIdentity]

17 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

which is exactly why I have repeatedly stated that my plan is to start out small and grow from there, as I stated I know that my current experience is nothing in the grand scheme of things, but I post about it, to show that, I am not going in this completely blind as people seem to think I am? 

its not like I have just got my provisional licence from the DVLA and I am sticking L plates on REV! although I have often wondered what sort of reaction I might get if I stuck "P" plates on REV  

I have got breakdown cover included in my insurance, and I am pretty positive I can find a friendly garage for any big jobs that crop up, yes it is a "WTF is that" sort of vehicle on the surface, but if you dig deeper, all the mechanicals are off the shelf parts that any mechanic will understand, the suspension/rear end is Fiat 500, the brakes are all Triumph Spitfire/Herald, the wiring is Lucas standard colour codes, the engine is a well documented well supported Steyr Puch unit, I have a full Model 70 workshop manual that I have scanned and OCR'ed into a PDF that i can provide to the Garage, and I also have large stash of Model 70 specific parts as well as a network of people I can ask about if the going gets tricky, see for example how I was able to source the Model 70 specific Kingpins when it became clear that, thats what needed replacing

and this is why my plan is once i get REV to do a tour of all the local garages and physically show them that an Invacar is nothing to be scared of, and I am sure there are classic friendly garages around, just based on the amount of street-parked Autoshite around here, REV is far from alone in being the only Historic Vehicle Taxation class vehicle around here!

so with that in mind again I am sure i can find a local friendly garage for any awkward or big jobs and im otherwise not to worried about things, again I have not gone into this completely blindly,

I know that REV will be a labour of love and there might be times where it wont be plain sailing but this is exactly why I have given it lots of thought, and made sure that I have a plan/contingencies in place  (for example thankfully my brother does not live too far away from me, so if I am doing a road side job that I realise is beyond my physical abilities or a 2 person job, I can get him to help out, he has very kindly always been willing to help me out in such situations in the past)

I view in this aspect of things as little different to owning a pet cat, I mean a cat is not really good for much, you cant use one as a beast of burden thats for sure! and a cat might present you with expensive vet bills, break things around the house, or even claw one of your eyes out, but you still get a Cat because of all the joy that owning a cat otherwise brings to you (if you are a cat person) and for me REV is much the same

I have got breakdown cover  so depending on the nature of whats gone on, if it cant be fixed on the road side, it would be recover it home, recover it to a garage or recover it to the FoD 

All beautiful, if typically verbose. 

It’s possibly worth understanding other’s experience of getting garages to do anything other than oil services and clutches these days: it’s difficult. 

I’ve been bumped three times by two garages just to have some niggly jobs done on my Mini. Throttle cable, clutch cable etc. 

Please do temper your expectations; people don’t have the same curiosity and enthusiasm that we do for old cars. To them, it’s like spreadsheets. Just the thing they do when they’re not at home with their kids. 

[busmansholiday]

11 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

have got breakdown cover included in my insurance, and I am pretty positive I can find a friendly garage for any big jobs that crop up, yes it is a "WTF is that" sort of vehicle on the surface, but if you dig deeper, all the mechanicals are off the shelf parts that any mechanic will understand, the suspension/rear end is Fiat 500, the brakes are all Triumph Herald, the wiring is Lucas standard colour codes, the engine is a well documented well supported Steyr Puch unit, I have a full Model 70 workshop manual that I have scanned and OCR'ed into a PDF that i can provide to the Garage, and I also have large stash of Model 70 specific parts as well as a network of people I can ask about if the going gets tricky, see for example how I was able to source the Model 70 specific Kingpins when it became clear that, thats what needed replacing

I'm sorry Dez, but the chances of any garages these days either:

a, realising that the Fiat 500 you are referring to is the 70's one not the current one they all know that's got a OBD port you plug into to tell you what's wrong;

b, knowing what a Triumph (other than the current motorbike) Herald is;

c, having a clue who Lucas were and their well known useless electrical systems,

is unfortunately fuck all.  Even more so in London. 

 

Even my local friendly MoT station garage would look and probably say " go talk to that weird old bloke who owns a couple of MGBs and is currently wasting his time replacing the brake pipes and welding bits back onto his 17 year old Matiz because there's no fucking way we'll touch it".

 

Sorry, reality with cars these days is, if it hasn't got an OBD port, you're screwed.

[R Lutz]

12 minutes ago, BorniteIdentity said:

The poor sod went fucking doolally, whilst some “trusted shiters” encouraged him, despite clear red fucking flags everywhere. 

I assume he’s still in the same institution he was when it all went south. 

Genuinely. 

I'm still waiting for my keyring. 

[Cheezey]

This thread reminded me of a local period Invacar. It was notable for having grey MG octagon stickers on it. Has it popped up anywhere in your research? 
I had a look at the local online archives. One photo possibly of Invacars but they haven’t scanned it yet. You’ll have to visit Callendar house to see it. 

[chadders]

7 minutes ago, BorniteIdentity said:

All beautiful, if typically verbose. 

It’s possibly worth understanding other’s experience of getting garages to do anything other than oil services and clutches these days: it’s difficult. 

I’ve been bumped three times by two garages just to have some niggly jobs done on my Mini. Throttle cable, clutch cable etc. 

Please do temper your expectations; people don’t have the same curiosity and enthusiasm that we do for old cars. To them, it’s like spreadsheets. Just the thing they do when they’re not at home with their kids. 

There's a classic car garage quite near to me that I've been using for about 20 years or so. I still need to book things in at least 3 or 4 weeks in advance as they're so busy. In fact I'm still waiting for an estimate for fixing a door lock I asked for, in writing*, a month ago.

* to explain the problem in detail.

[D.E]

30 minutes ago, wuvvum said:

I'm pretty sure it got nuked from orbit when things went south.

Locked, not removed.

 

[Christine]

Thank your lucky stars  it's been re named !  There's  8 Invacare dealerships in London !   Jesting aside , waiting outside a Eurocarparts will yield lots of Eastern European  or African self employed mechanics, They can repair anything . 

[OhNoWhatHaveIDone]

This forum is becoming TOXIC.  God help anyone who answers back to a certain 'clique', yet they can say what they want, slate who they want, mainly @LightBulbFun yet @Mrs6C ADMIN are on the missing list...... They slag off Invacars, so why are they here?

Best thing would be is to have two new forum pages, one for lightbulbs, one for Invacars, and block from both these haters that are ruining it for the fans!  (Not bad from a so called 'troll' eh?). 

 

 

[wuvvum]

23 minutes ago, D.E said:

Locked, not removed.

 

I stand corrected.  I did try to find the thread a while back and couldn't, but then the search function has been a little unreliable on occasion. 

[plasticvandan]

8 minutes ago, OhNoWhatHaveIDone said:

This forum is becoming TOXIC.  God help anyone who answers back to a certain 'clique', yet they can say what they want, slate who they want, mainly @LightBulbFun yet @Mrs6C ADMIN are on the missing list...... They slag off Invacars, so why are they here?

Best thing would be is to have two new forum pages, one for lightbulbs, one for Invacars, and block from both these haters that are ruining it for the fans!  (Not bad from a so called 'troll' eh?). 

 

 

You've only been here five minutes,this is nothing.

[High Jetter]

56 minutes ago, AdgeCutler said:

Getting a bit tired of reading through all the dross on this thread now. However I have seen a few mentions of late of an Alvis Stalwart thread that sounds intriguing  and may pass a little reading time until this one settles back down, but, I can't find it. Anybody know what it was titled?

Me too. I joined AS midway through Stalwartgate, but think the guy had/has serious issues, sadly. 

Could we all perhaps respect that LBF is an intelligent guy who has heard all the arguements both pro & con, repeatedly? Please...

[OhNoWhatHaveIDone]

2 minutes ago, plasticvandan said:

You've only been here five minutes,this is nothing.

And youre proud of that.... Speaks volumes 

[red5]

3 minutes ago, plasticvandan said:

You've only been here five minutes,this is nothing.

Well, in this iteration, yes.

 

[lesapandre]

1 hour ago, R Lutz said:

I'm still waiting for my keyring. 

I'm still waiting for my cockring.

[D.E]

30 minutes ago, High Jetter said:

Me too. I joined AS midway through Stalwartgate, but think the guy had/has serious issues, sadly. 

Could we all perhaps respect that LBF is an intelligent guy who has heard all the arguements both pro & con, repeatedly? Please...

Ok.

 

Did you already see this one, LBF?

 

[BorniteIdentity]

1 hour ago, OhNoWhatHaveIDone said:

This forum is becoming TOXIC.  God help anyone who answers back to a certain 'clique', yet they can say what they want, slate who they want, mainly @LightBulbFun yet @Mrs6C ADMIN are on the missing list...... They slag off Invacars, so why are they here?

Best thing would be is to have two new forum pages, one for lightbulbs, one for Invacars, and block from both these haters that are ruining it for the fans!  (Not bad from a so called 'troll' eh?). 

 

 

This has made my day. Off you fuck, you thimble headed gherkin. 

[Jon]

Has the weather been a bit shit in the UK this past week or two? This already vast thread has grown 2% in a handful of days, courtesy of a handful of contributors. The ratio of Invacar history/maintenance posts is vastly overwhelmed by arguments and back and forth epic Invacare bantz. I understand this is forum life to some, but for Dez, this is a thread he pours his heart and soul into, separate to whether an Invacar is or is not a good road car in 2024 London.  Indeed, I commented years back that I thought he'd never end up owning an Invacar and that the idea in general is Not A Good One. Then what was simply an Invacar info/old pic thread became info and ownership thread, I was happy to be proven wrong - but perhaps this thread should have been kept purely as info/pics and a new one made up for ownership? That said, ANOTHER Invacar thread 5 years ago might not have gone down well....

Were I a new reader visiting this forum for some Invacar background, I think I'd be dissuaded to read much, let alone sign up to contribute. Indeed, Dez helped my Dad discover some much needed 50 year old Invacar information for a book he was writing, which was seemingly lost to time and to him, was a major barrier to completing a project he'd wanted to complete for 5 decades. I mentioned knowing someone on a forum who might be helpful but didn't ever forward the thread, as I knew all the harrasment hilarious japes would put him right off. Were these directed at a purely ownership thread and the chat/history thread left alone, perhaps they might have been better received?

I'll admit that whilst 120 hours of mostly London driving is about 114 more than I've done, it is still very much 'learning to drive' territory, especially as so many of these hours were under instruction. I'm certainly in agreement with those who've commented the same.

If a cursory glance of the internet is to be believed, an automatic Corsa can be hired from LHR with full insurance for 3 days for under 70 quid (can't find the pound symbol on my NZ keyboard!). And 3 years of no driving is a LONG time off the road - I was noticeably rusty after a few weeks reduced time behind the wheel over lockdown. Irrespective of whether he'll use the Invacar as much as he hopes, or buy a second car for daily duties etc, I'll happily shout Dez a 3 day car hire, or however many days he could squeeze out of a 100 quid budget.

Edited September 26, 2024 by Jon
bad maths.