The ongoing journey of Spartacus’ 1988 Fiat Panda

[Westbay]

"its still a bit coughy on first throttle blip though, Looking at the accelerator jet there is fuel coming out but wondering if it should be so dribbly or if it should be more of a jet"

well the clue's in the name - jet, so that the fuel 'atomises' if it's "dribbly" then this won't 'atomise' properly ...

[wesacosa]

2 minutes ago, Westbay said:

"its still a bit coughy on first throttle blip though, Looking at the accelerator jet there is fuel coming out but wondering if it should be so dribbly or if it should be more of a jet"

well the clue's in the name - jet, so that the fuel 'atomises' if it's "dribbly" then this won't 'atomise' properly ...

Ta I did think it looked a bit rubbish. I replaced the diaphragm and O ring so wonder whats gone wrong 

[Westbay]

Just now, wesacosa said:

Ta I did think it looked a bit rubbish. I replaced the diaphragm and O ring so wonder whats gone wrong 

seated properly ?

[wesacosa]

2 minutes ago, Westbay said:

seated properly ?

well I thought so but looks like I need to double check 

[wesacosa]

23 minutes ago, Westbay said:

seated properly ?

if there was a vacuum leak could that effect the accelerator jet or do they run independently

[Mr Pastry]

30 minutes ago, wesacosa said:

if there was a vacuum leak could that effect the accelerator jet or do they run independently

They are independent, and would expect a jet rather than a dribble.

[wesacosa]

does this tell us anything?

 

 

[wesacosa]

also before I start messing around with float height can someone just double check I got this the right way around....

If the distance marked float setting on the picture is too big, the fuel will cut off earlier and the float bowl will have too little fuel.  

 

[Zelandeth]

How long has this been sitting around, and how much fuel is in the tank?  Given how quickly modern fuel seems to go off if it's been more than a few months, might be worth sloshing a gallon or two of fresh E5 in there.  Trying to properly set the idle mixture and such on manky stale fuel could have you chasing your tail for ages.

Seems to be a huge variance on how it behaves - but I had a can in my shed go from new in September to "it's not even flammable" in ~6 months.

Spent several hours of one afternoon and at least two strip downs of the carb on the pressure washer before I figured that one out.

[Mr Pastry]

Re float height, yes you have it the right way round, and +1 for fresh petrol. 

[wesacosa]

7 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

How long has this been sitting around, and how much fuel is in the tank?  Given how quickly modern fuel seems to go off if it's been more than a few months, might be worth sloshing a gallon or two of fresh E5 in there.  Trying to properly set the idle mixture and such on manky stale fuel could have you chasing your tail for ages.

Seems to be a huge variance on how it behaves - but I had a can in my shed go from new in September to "it's not even flammable" in ~6 months.

Spent several hours of one afternoon and at least two strip downs of the carb on the pressure washer before I figured that one out.

1/4 tank E5 from last summer. Probably worth sticking some in as you suggest to at least rule that out

8 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Re float height, yes you have it the right way round, and +1 for fresh petrol. 

Hmm ok we might be getting somewhere.  The distance was bigger than the max value in the manual when I checked after fitting the new float valve by a mm or two but because the float bowl had been overflowing as per my earlier post I  didn't pay much attention to the diagram and just assumed given it seemed to have stopped overflowing that bigger distance mean higher fuel level and once I confirmed it wasn't overflowing it would be ok, but as I looked again today, and as you confirmed, its actually likely I have too low a fuel level.  Not sure how sensitive it is to fuel level but I guess its something easy to rule out

[Mr Pastry]

Usually I think there is a bit more tolerance on the fuel level than they tell you, but if it is too low it will weaken the mixture and vice versa, so worth getting it as good as possible.   The overflowing seems to have been related to the valve itself, hopefully that is sorted.

[wesacosa]

fresh fuel didn't help. I took it for a little 200 meter spin on private land* and it is ok under light acceleration but coughs under harder acceleration so I am wondering if the fact it doesn't do it all the time rules out an air leak 

I think I will have one last look at the accelerator jet, set the float height a bit higher and see what happens 

If that doesn't work I'm out of ideas other than try and find a second hand carb 

[rob88h]

Is it driveable enough to get it MOT’d and then take it over to a more old school style garage for a tune up from a fresh set of eyes/hands? 

[wesacosa]

3 minutes ago, rob88h said:

Is it driveable enough to get it MOT’d and then take it over to a more old school style garage for a tune up from a fresh set of eyes/hands? 

Not sure to be honest but might have to just give it a go

although someone over on the FB forum thinks the fuel flow down the diffuser when you rev it should also be more atomised too so could be issues somewhere 

 

 

 

[wesacosa]

I decided to bite the bullet and take the carb off again to see if there were any obvious issues and change the rest of the gaskets I didn't go last time, plus blow out all the jets and drillings with the air gun 

There were no obvious signs of errors , I may have used one size too big an O ring on the mixture screw and not entirely sure the accelerator pump tap was seated correctly but nothing obvious inside the carb.  I think I hadn't done a great job on scraping the gasket off the spacer block so more time was spent there.  The gasket between the float chamber and the throttle plate was also manky so glad I replaced that this time.  I also set the float level into spec as it was a mm or do too low last time 

I also took the opportunity to check the fuel pressure which seemed ok

Back on the car and it fired up straight away and didn't overflow the float chamber like first start last time.  It did do the coughing the first few throttle blips but seemed to get a little better after a few mins.  I didn't bother warming it up and I haven't played with the mixture or the idle speed yet , just used some nominal settings to get it started so hoping a bit of a tweak of those might sort out the last little bits of poor running.  If not I'm running out of ideas 

I also noticed the return to idle after a throttle blip is a bit slow which I think I read somewhere might be related to mixture so definitely need looking at

 

 

 

[wesacosa]

Good news but maybe still an issue 

good news is the hesitation seems to have gone when hot

Idle is a bit rough but maybe need some more finessing of the mixture and idle speed 

The slight concern is the hissing noise from around the carb. Even with the air box on its noticeable. Worse from drivers side, spraying wd40 around doesn't seem to make idle stumble so if there is a leak it's not entirely obvious where from 

[rob88h]

Sounds ready for an MOT 😃  .  F5

[wesacosa]

defeat snatched from the jaws of victory 

stethoscope and wd40 showed the hissing seemed to be coming from the fuel shut off/anti dieseling solenoid . I had removed it to change the sealing ring during the carb refurb ( yes , I know I should have just left well alone).

I thought I try just nipping it up with a spanner to see if that helped and , you guessed it, the fcking thing snapped right off. Managed to get the thread out but it snapped right at the top of the thread so I can't just put it back in even to seal the hole

I am on my last warning from the Mrs to get it off the drive so I'm desperately looking for a replacement (new ones are an horrific rip off from the only place I found so far that sells them)

@Ian_Fearn, @Grumblespeed or anyone else, do you have one in your stash of spares by any chance.  Happy to buy it, borrow it, rent it. whatever suits. Sorry to ask but as I say things are starting to get a bit difficult with this hogging the drive 

or if anyone knows where I might buy one from that's not going to take the piss on price 

If not I will just have to bite the bullet and buy a new one

cheers 

 

[grogee]

Aw BAWS sorry to hear that. Usual part hunting advice applies - Google any part numbers stamped on it, check if it's used in anything else etc. 

Good luck, we're all counting on you. 

[Grumblespeed]

Like this @wesacosa 

All yours, I'll get it in the post.

[wesacosa]

19 minutes ago, Grumblespeed said:

Like this @wesacosa 

All yours, I'll get it in the post.

ooh Thanks although I'm not hundred percent sure.The body looks the same but that seems to have a jet on the end whereas mine looked like it was just a stopper . I wondered if the tips are interchangeable or removable. 

If you are happy to send it I can give it a go, but let me know your bank details in PM so I can pay the postage and add some beer money 

 

[wesacosa]

this was mine

Looks like an m8x10mm thread 

The plunger made a bid for freedom off its spring and is yet to be found but it looked like this I think 

 

 

 

[Grumblespeed]

No it is still just a plunger to stop off the fuel supply. Should be right, I've got 4 of these carbs and all mine look the same. 

[wesacosa]

6 minutes ago, Grumblespeed said:

No it is still just a plunger to stop off the fuel supply. Should be right, I've got 4 of these carbs and all mine look the same. 

ah ok interesting. Well if you can spare it than it would be very grateful received

[Zelandeth]

1 hour ago, wesacosa said:

ah ok interesting. Well if you can spare it than it would be very grateful received

Damnit... accidentally quoted there and now can't delete it because Invision's editor is far too clever for its own good.

You *may* be able to just stopper that off with a suitably sized bolt and it will still work.  Obviously sans the anti-dieselling feature.  Assuming it's not actually used to meter anything anyway.

I know you can remove the innards from the one on a Skoda Estelle carb and it will run fine without it as I've done that on a carb there where the coil was o/c.

Probably not ideal, but might be worth a try in the meantime!

[wesacosa]

yeah I did wonder about that too. I think its the same size as the bolts I bought for the coolant drain on the Estelle but I've no idea where I put them and I had nothing else suitable in the garage 

[wesacosa]

Small update on the Panda

as per the post above, @Grumblespeed, as he has many times already, came to the rescue and kindly provided a replacement solenoid valve.  Despite him sending first class post it took a week and two days to arrive leading me to think it was lost in the post. I started trying to bolt to at least plug the hole but it seemed to be a funny thread that I couldn't find a match for but thankfully the solenoid turned up last weekend.  Despite a soak in wd40 and contact cleaner it couldn't quite be revived into life though, when powered up it would only open if you pushed the end , it didn't quite have enough umph to open under its own steam so I cut the end off and just used it to plug the hole.  @Grumblespeedalso kindly provided a new fibre washer instead of the aluminium one on previously which was the source of the hissing so that's now fixed the issue 

Got it all back together now, ran it up and had a little fidde again with the idle speed and mixture and now it seems to be running well, although not driven it yet of course.  Idle seems a lot better and the coughing on throttle blips seems to be gone. I think the issue was on the first carb partial refurb I'd gone a size too big on the O ring on the accelerator pump jet and it wasn't sitting home properly, and also the float level was out and the chamber wasn't filling enough.  When I took the carb apart a second time to fix that I did a proper job and changed the float chamber to throttle plate gaskets and blew all the jets and drillings out with the airline 

Running without the solenoid valve plunger doesn't seem to have caused any negative issues so far, no dieseling/run on or backfiring yet but again only idle and throttle blips so far 

Think its time to take a brave pill and book the MOT and take it for a run., as per some of my other posts I've really lost confidence in my work after a few breakdowns so the thought of hitting the m25 is giving me sleepless nights but thats the next step 

 

 

[wesacosa]

@brownnova @chaseracer @Mrs6C

Do you think it would be possible to change the title of this thread so it's not locked forever to the minor update from the last time @spartacusupdated it

perhaps something like Spartacus' 1988 Fiat Panda 

Cheers 

[brownnova]

1 hour ago, wesacosa said:

@brownnova @chaseracer @Mrs6C

Do you think it would be possible to change the title of this thread so it's not locked forever to the minor update from the last time @spartacusupdated it

perhaps something like Spartacus' 1988 Fiat Panda 

Cheers 

Done 👍