PAS, ABS, ESP, do you need it?

[cros]

I used to have to drive a poverty spec late nineties Ducato van, 1.9 non turbo and no pas- the steering was horrible when laden, as was the dash mounted cable gear change (whats that all about?). There were other earlier vans, notably Japanese, that managed to engineer a system that was acceptable when laden, so I think it could be omitted on at least some small cars with modest tyres.

[danthecapriman]

Personally, I like luxuries like electric windows, A/C, electric mirrors, heated seats etc etc but they aren't really essential. It's just nice if they happen to be in a car I want, and I do tend to like higher spec cars.

 

I'm not interested in ABS, ESP or those newfangled lane warning lights or self parking things. They just make the dumbing down of driving worse. I've driven very old very basic cars for my whole driving life, in some really shit conditions (snow and ice) and never felt I've needed or wanted them.

But, most people these days don't care about being a good or experienced driver. It's a necessary chore to them and it shows in peoples piss poor driving standards and lack of attention.

A real eye opener for me was the other day, I was chatting to one of our apprentices at work about cars. He's 18 and didn't have a clue what a manual choke was or how to use it! And he couldn't believe it when I told him my Capri has one and how it was used to start the car! He couldn't believe I could drive a car without PAS either!

But almost everyone's like this now.

[Dick Cheeseburger]

ABS is good. Power steering on a small car is the equivalent of carrying around a beer gut. As for ESP...

[cort16]

I can think of 2 specific occasions when ABS has stopped me having a massive smash so yes please I'll have ABS on the car I'm driving 20k a year in. All the other stuff really just stops you pulling out from round abouts and junctions quickly when it's wet. On various BMW's I've had when it's slid on a roundabout the traction control was so dim witted the light didn't start flashing until it was all over and I'd left a 2p in my pants.

[DVee8]

This was on a 5th Gear repeat last week

 

https://youtu.be/C4-Lbt8KHkw

[dollywobbler]

I think I've seen that before. I think it made me very angry. That's the problem when they try making a point with these things - they have to try too hard to prove what a NIGHTMARE not having these things is. I remember seeing a demonstration for winter tyres where they talked about the danger of lift-off understeer as the presenter instead demonstrated understeer caused by shit-stupid driving. Shit-stupid driving that didn't seem to occur when using the winter tyres.

 

Funnily enough though, I've driven cars with adaptive radar cruise control and thought it was generally BRILLIANT. Works surprisingly well on the twisty A roads of Wales as, assuming the car in front of you slows down for bends, your car does too with no input from the driver. I'd never buy a car just because it had that system fitted though. 

[UmBongo]

I'd like to know what Old_Fart thinks about this.

[Lacquer Peel]

Nanny state. EU. Bonkers. Immigrants. Diesel Maxi. Silver. Asperger's.

[HH-R]

Don't forget the government stealing our thoughts through the pulses of the ABS pump.

[HH-R]

On a car, I like:

 

Electric windows with one touch up/down - makes it a lot easier paying at the kiosk for petrol or going to maccy d's without trying to steer, do the gears and wind a window up at the same time. Not a dealbreaker though.

Central locking - not mega bothered about remote but my 5 door Micra always had at least one door unlocked. Saying "lock your door" to passengers was too much to ask.

ABS - never actually made ABS kick in that I can remember, even on snow/ice. I had to brake like hell in my Micra twice and locked the wheels up twice in a row but TBH that was my own shite driving - not something I've repeated since! I'd rather have it than have to think about cadence braking though, should braking like that be needed.

Air con - keeps the windows nice and clear in the winter and I find it much easier to breathe with it on on damp days. Nice for keeping cool in the summer too.

 

The rest can go to hell though. I've avoided the need for traction/stability control by not DLAC and not veering wildly in a Yaris on an airstrip. The poor little thing stood up well to their abuse!

[sierraman]

Only thing I'd require in a car spec wise is a radio and a heater. And an armrest. Don't need anything else really. Though on a wet country lane of sooner have ABS than not.

[dugong]

I like a car to have a farting bracket.

[320touring]

[beatles] All you need is BOOST [/beatles]

[fordperv]

as someones already said its horses for courses really, for me i can definately do without pas, esp etc the only car i have that has pas is my saph and i find that too light, i like having steering feel and i like that bit of resistance that non pas gives, parking isnt a problem for me with no pas either, mrs fordperv loves her escort rs turbo which (for those who dont know about them) has no pas and its a piece of pee for her to park, she had me bin the abs system as it was shit (belt driven from driveshafts)

 

i dont like esp or traction aids either, i drove my mates seat ibiza cupra which had some esp/traction control crap, i was giving it some welly and the thing was trying constantly to tell me how to drive, there wasnt a sniff of wheelspin or loss of traction but the car was having a heart attack, flashing lights up on the dashboard and i could feel the car fighting me, even with it switched off i could still feel it trying to smack me on the wrist, all vag is shit

[pshome]

only three letter item i need is SEX...

[warren t claim]

In well over half a million miles of driving ABS equipped cars I can honestly say that other than on very wet manhole covers or in the snow I've never had it cut in once. I must be lucky.

[forddeliveryboy]

I like ABS, it's great for freeing off sticky rear calipers - I wait for snow then give them the treatment.

[dollywobbler]

In well over half a million miles of driving ABS equipped cars I can honestly say that other than on very wet manhole covers or in the snow I've never had it cut in once. I must be lucky.

 

I've had it cut in on our minibuses on muddy country lanes, but I've never managed to activate it in a car at any time other than when I deliberately tried to on gravel, just to see if it'd work.

 

Oh and we did lease a bus from the council with winter tyres on the rear axle only. That was very good for making the ABS kick in on snow. Bloody idiots. 

[forddeliveryboy]

If you're going to use ABS to stop in a straight line emergency, then you need to press the pedal so hard it cuts in the ABS on the rear wheels. Loads don't - as soon as they feel the pedal pulse, they stop pressing any harder.

 

You can't rewrite the laws of physics, grip is a complex function of springing, damping, passive and dynamic suspension geometries, antiroll bar strength (this can massively reduce cornering grip and stability on less than perfect surfaces), tyre proportioning, tread and compound, road surface, centres of mass and yaw and so on - and most moderns don't bother with such subtleties but bolt on electronics to make up for design cheapness. They just make sure it goes round the TopGear test track in a way which looks good on telly. And make sure women like the way it feels on the school run.

 

You've only to follow a teetering over-tyred modern thing on a wet road to see how relying on ECUs and fashion for grip can reduce real-world ability. If the road grows corners and bumps, changing its surface grip every furlong, many modern cars slow down hugely. If you're in something like a good 2cv or DS, you wonder what the problem is and fly past, to their cursing about nutters in rickety old cars, no doubt. The worse the conditions, the bigger the difference between a car which works ok and one which works beautifully.

[Junkman]

 

This was on a 5th Gear repeat last week

 

https://youtu.be/C4-Lbt8KHkw

 

 

OMGWEWILLALLDIE!

[anonymous user]

I like gadgets, but they don't like me much. If it's on a car fine, as long as it works, I wouldn't actively dismiss a car for having or not having things on them. I like PAS because I'm weak and feeble, but didn't see the point of it on things like the Panda, especially the button to make it even lighter so you could turn the wheel to park with your nose.

 

I like electric windows because I'm old enough to remember when very few cars had that feature, but not bothered if it's not there. ABS, nice to have, but, I've driven more cars without it than with it and never really noticed any benefit of having it, then again I may be lucky. I have some sort of ESP/Traction Control on the Smart, not sure what it does so I'll probably leave it alone. I have been in a self-parking Lexus, it worked but I didn't see the point really and I'm not sure I'd trust it, I'd rather bump my own car thank-you.

[gordonbennet]

Can live without any of them, happy enough to have ABS and power steering and leccy windows are bloody handy, rest of the tat i'd rather avoid as its just something else to go wrong.

 

I like a proper full slide sunroof, and luckily all three of our cars have them, so long as its got a sunroof i'd rather do without the aircon.

 

Actively dislike climate control as much for the pretentious term as the fitment, give me three dials/levers and a bloody on/off switch for the aircon if equipped.

 

 

Had the displeasure of driving the bosses new Aldi A3 today, stop start keyless go electric auto parking brake, more bloody switches and bits on the steering wheel than you could shake a stick at, not as i've got a clue what any of it does cos the labels on the switches must be designed for 16 year olds with the eyes of a bloody hawk, felt quite claustrophobic in that dark and cramped thing, engine sounded like it belongs in a Massey Ferguson, bloody glad to get back in me Landcruiser to a nice proper smooth auto box and some comfortable seats and ride.

[forddeliveryboy]

 

This was on a 5th Gear repeat last week

 

https://youtu.be/C4-Lbt8KHkw

 

 

Message - old cars (even if only 4 years old and no ESC) are dangerous. Therefore a 24 year old Merc is bloody lethal. People will need to steer well clear of me next time I take my (and everyone else's) life in my hands, especially if I try and make it go round a corner at more than 35mph. I think I'll stick to 30 wherever I go. Otoh, rep-man in his Mondeo, with cheap worn tyres which are all different pressures, a shocker past its best and brain not having to consider the road BCOZESC, is halo-safe.

 

I'd like to see that airstrip test done on a replica winding B-road, strewn with random puddles, recessed grids, leaves, nids-de-poules, washboard surfaces here and there, with 80,000 miles on the clock and a mix of Continental, Ling-Long and Achilles tyres. It would be way more informative.

 

Is designing a car to be inherently stable going to become less important in future I wonder, with electronics doing the work?

[New POD]

Having been taken for a ride (in 1994) in a fully instrumented test car on the Lucas Car Braking Fen End Test Track, (Now owned by erm Prodrive ?), I would refuse to believe that ANYONE is better than ABS. 

 

On 3 occasions in 20 years (because I'm a muppet) ABS has saved me. Braking with one set of wheels on wet leaves on top of cobbles, and one set on drying concrete is a good test.

 

 

The problem with ABS  is that

 

a) some people just drive faster, and are therefore likely to be going much faster when then realise that the ABS can not invent none existent grip. If the co-efficient of friction is zero, it really can't help much.

 

many people have never tested what happen when the ABS cuts in, so they are surprised by the weird pulsing kicking through the brake pedal, and panic. They usually take their foot off the brake, when the best thing would be to push harder.

 

c) It allows the car manufacturer to rationalise the brakes, so they can safely put bigger brakes on cars that don't need them, and can pick pad materials combinations that are sometimes too severe for normal use, and this means the brake is no longer tuned to the particular target customer type. This reduces the cost (because variation is the mother of waste), but makes the driving experience shite.

[Taff]

I like a car to have a farting bracket.

 

and a pipe rack

[captain_70s]

Never activated ABS on any of my cars except on snow/ice, even with some pretty hairy stops. 

 

In my days of daily Dolomite action I just drove slower. Had cars overtaking me in snow and pouring rain at silly speeds, they think can afford to take the risk I guess what with their fancy electric gizmos. Only time I really had an issue where I could have done with ABS is when a dozy bint pulled out in front of my BRIGHT YELLOW car on a wet day. I was only doing 30mph and I stood on the brakes, felt the wheels lock up and thought "nope, that's not gonna' work" so I came off the brake and JUST managed to swerve around her. If I hadn't felt the front wheels lock up I'm not sure I'd have thought to lift off and re-gain steering, perhaps with ABS I wouldn't have needed to anyway?

 

Steering on the old Triumphs is feather lights when in good fettle, no need for PAS. Bit it was DESIGNED with no PAS in mind, cars like my Dad's '91 Rover 214 lack it but were designed to have it, thus steering that weighed more than a small moon. Aye, parking the Doloshites could be tricky but as soon as the car was moving even slightly it lightened up, you aren't really supposed to turn lock to lock while stationary anyway. Bad practice, that's all most electronic aids are helping you with in the first place. Leave a bigger gap in front and drive a bit slower and you'll never need it, sadly a lot of folk can't grasp the facts and drive like retards.

 

Get your motor in fine fettle with decent tyres and you'll live, good rubber'll probably be more handy than ABS or stability control in an emergency situation. I'm certain I could out corner my Civic in the Dolly with it's tiny narrow wheels and archaic suspension purely because it's not wearing the Civics LingLong Ditchfinders...

[drum]

Obviously I don't need abs because I'm a driving God but I'm glad it's there for normal people like my wife. Normal people slam the brakes on when they feel the car skidding on ice or snow and without abs would go straight on into a wall or another car.

 

I spend a lot of time in series land rovers with their 1940's technology, and I would never want to retrofit any modern gubbins. I do like gizmos in new cars though. Cruise control for example makes long motorway journeys more comfortable because you can move your feet around and avoid deep vein thrombosis. 😃

 

If I had a tesla with that function that makes it drive out the garage and park itself outside the front door I'd be pressing that button every day. Or that disco that can be driven remotely using an app on your phone. Love all that shit.

[NorfolkNWeigh]

Apart from that half arsed Teves bollocks fitted to Mk4 Escorts and Onions, I would always prefer to have it than not, it has probably saved my pride if not mine or someone else's life at various times over the last 30 years or so. The occasional soggy pedal or false triggering on a manhole cover is a small price to pay for the confidence and security.

Anything I drive these days without it is old and or slow and likely to be used locally and not likely to be in a situation where I'm barrelling into a bend at 04.00am on a wet and windy Wednesday morning only to encounter a deer or an upside down Transit or a pissed Astra driver with no lights ,or a mini digger that's fallen off a Pikeys trailer when they were nicking it or,or...... All things that I've actually encountered, and I'll take all the help I can get thanks.

I once crested a brow on the A1 somewhere north of York very early in the morning going pretty quickly in about 1986 . There was debris everywhere I slammed the brakes on and just like a promotional film steered around bits of caravan, whilst going from a 3 figure speed to stopping 50 feet from a broadside Granada and remains of a caravan- I'll never forget the faces of the family in the Granny as my W126 was coming towards them.

Without ABS , what would have happened? I don't know, my reflexes then would have been quicker and the road was dry, so it might have been ok, might have been.

[wuvvum]

Given that 99.9% of this forum are only interested in modern cars, the outcome of this thread was pretty much foreordained.

I'm not sure it's necessarily an old / new thing.  My Volvo is 43 years old and that has PAS - and would be an absolute cunt to drive without it, with a bloody great pig-iron straight 6 sat over the front wheels.

 

ABS has its place - it can be a pain in the arse in the snow, or when you're trying to deliberately make the tyres screech to frighten the fucktard pedestrian who's just stepped out in front of you whilst texting, but on a pissing wet motorway it can be a Godsend.

 

ESP can get tae feck.

[richardmorris]

To be honest, I struggle with reverse parallel parking these days. Since I moved from Birmingham in 2003, I just don't do it often enough and I seem to have lost the knack. Mind you, reversing the XM is like trying to reverse a house. Only the visibility is usually better in a house.

 

Aim the back corner into the middle of the space close to the kerb, as the mirror passes the back of the car in front start putting on the opposite lock. Simples. Works on everything from 2cvs to cx prestiges in my experience.