The Autoshite Mass-Debating Society

[warren t claim]

I thought I'd start a thread to argue amongst ourselves about all things motoring without having to start a new thread every for each topic.

 

Here's the first topic for your perusal and comments..

 

The spark ignition petrol engine has reached its peak in development and within 5 years will only be fitted as a matter of course to supercars and budget superminis. The diesel engine has finally overtaken its petrol equivalent in terms of BHP/Litre and is now seen as the drivers choice.

 

Discuss.

[Tonka]

now seen as the drivers choice

 

Not this driver, I've owned over 100 cars but never owned a single diesel amongst them ........

[worldofceri]

Not the drivers' choice; the accountants' choice. Hardly anyone would run a diesel if they weren't cheaper on fuel.

[Pete-M]

Sales of new Diesels should be banned. Within 5 minutes.

[sporty-shite]

The modern common rail diesel engine has reached the peak of it's technology, and will soon be overtaken by new forced induction, lower capacity petrol engines, which will find newer and more sinister ways to fuck up and cost fortunes.

[oldford]

Alright when they're new and under warranty, when after 5 years or so when the fancy injectors, DPFs, DMFs and expensive high pressure pumps go wrong they'll be in the scrap yards.

[Cheggers]

As much as I hate the idea, surely it's only a matter of time before manufacturers get their shit together with electric cars and that'll be that for small "everyday" cars?

 

We'll all doomed I tell ye [/frazer]

[eddyramrod]

Not much to debate on this one! I'm in agreement with Cheggers and Ceri. We are indeed doomed, and it's the fault of the accountants. Come on, seriously: what ordinary working bloke would choose a diesel, if it wasn't being forced on him? The only reason I have one is because I bought a commercial. If I'd bought a relatively normal car, like say a Mondeo, I'd eat my own feet before I'd specify a diesel.

[warren t claim]

Not much to debate on this one! I'm in agreement with Cheggers and Ceri. We are indeed doomed, and it's the fault of the accountants. Come on, seriously: what ordinary working bloke would choose a diesel, if it wasn't being forced on him? The only reason I have one is because I bought a commercial. If I'd bought a relatively normal car, like say a Mondeo, I'd eat my own feet before I'd specify a diesel.

 

The 320d BMW I thrashed over Snake Pass was an amazing bit of kit.

[worldofceri]

Trouble is, Eddy, we're all our own accountants. Look at my signature. I can't really afford to run a car that only does 28 mpg. If I was the kind of guy that wasn't into cars and driving, I'd own a diesel.

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

With all due respect, the 'accountant' thing is bolleaux! How much is the price of a litre of petrol/diesel? How much of that is TAX? Does the accountant set tax levels, or merely work with/around them? All you need is a bunch of Eurocrats to get together and decide that diesel duty levels will increase by x% across the Union, and the accountants will desert diesels faster than a bunch of rats jump out of a sinking ship.

[Pillock]

I like to ooomph to a TDI, but then I've never driven a turbo petrol, or really even a petrol car with the same power level as my current Leon Diesel. So it's a bit unfair - nearest was a BMW 318i which was wafty and a bit lardy. But yeah it's the economy - give me a decently nippy petrol car that can do 45mpg (or whatever that thing in my signature says) being driven normally - a bit of cruising most days followed by some traffic light grand prix - and we'll talk.

 

At £1.40 a litre, economy is king for most folk.

[Mash]

Diesel's 10p a litre more than petrol. With an efficient, modern petrol powered car does it really stack up financially? Are there any other financial benefits to running diesels?

 

I agree that for someone doing a lot of motorway work it's probably better than say a 1.6 petrol that would be revving it's bollocks off but I'm getting around 50mpg on average from a 13 year old Starlet and not paying as much at the pump.

[eddyramrod]

To which I say, Warren: the 2004 530d that I had for a day was positively dangerous. It was also the least comfortable car I've ever had the misfortune to sit in, and I've had some real crap in that respect. Never again, under any circumstances whatsoever.

And Ceri: totally valid, yes; it's a question of priorities. I don't have a young family or a mortgage; I don't smoke or drink or spend all day in the bookies. I've always been at the bottom of the pay ladder, but I've managed to run a variety of big thirsty cars because I simply like them. What other people spend on ciggies, I put in the tank. Mind I will walk to the shop for a loaf, rather than take the car, especially one of the big ones.

[CIH]

Mute point, though I appreciate the sentiment.

The basic dirtyness of diesel, the higher cost of the fuel specifically, common rail petrol injection and trick turbos means diesel has had it's day already.

[warren t claim]

Mute point, though I appreciate the sentiment.

The basic dirtyness of diesel, the higher cost of the fuel specifically, common rail petrol injection and trick turbos means diesel has had it's day already.

How does common rail petrol differ from multi point injection?

[AnthonyG]

If I buy another new car with the intention of keeping for 7 or 8 years ( as I have twice so far) I won't be buying a diesel.

 

Then again I probably won't be that keen on a small capacity TSi or Multiair either!

[Craig the Princess]

Perhaps controversial but here goes: We have nothing to fear from electric cars, epically in cities they make a lot of sense. A lot of city families will have two cars a small electric car (replacing their current smart/polo) and a Petrol/Diesel car much as they do now.

 

I would love to make an electric car conversion out of an Allegro/Metro that has been mini-raped for its engine. Only a mix of lack of skill, lack of understanding, being a lazy swine, fear of Big Amp electrics and the almost certainty of serious injury or death is stopping me.

[Pete-M]

Mustard mitt, the Skodas in work doing 50 mpg no matter how badly I drive them has slightly impressed me, from a pence per mile point of view.

 

However, stopping at a junction soon brings my loathing of them back in floods as they vibrate away at idle.

 

Probably the most demonstrative comment as to diesels still being shite was a chap I work with. He's a diesel apologist. Had diesels for years, reckons they're the dogs danglies. "New diesels are smoother and quieter than petrols... it's just snobs who hate diesels" I gave him a lift in the starship 5 series the other week and he was stunned as to how smooth and quiet it is, and how quick it can go.

 

So stunned that he's seriously contemplating ditching diesel and going LPG next time. Good man.

 

Then there's the fact that the 528i will happily average 35 mpg on a motorway run where one of the Skodas would be doing 50ish mpg. Petrol is approximately 50p a gallon cheaper. So 220 miles costs me £10 more, but I've got an extra 53 bhp, no vibration, no DMF, no turbo, no mental high pressure common rail injectors to go wrong and I'm in a quicker, quieter, smoother car that actually sounds nice when I welly it.

 

This advantage dissolves in town when the Skoda will still be doing 35 mpg and the BMW mid teens. Hey ho. Not to worry. At least the BMW is quiet.

 

[dollywobbler]

I'd just like to say that Top Gear is shite/brilliant and diesel engines are shite/brilliant and electric cars are shite.

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

Speaking of LPG, it's an ace fuel (clean-burning, virtually no impurities, low tax, super tanks that never leak), but the supply situation really gets on my nerves. There is only one place in town selling it, and is expensive to the point that driving the 10 miles to a middle-of-nowhere Flogas depot and back works out cheaper (as long as you don't account for the time lost in the endeavour).

[RoadworkUK]

I actually think, occasionally. That some of the outside-lane pigheadedness found so often on "big" roads is the fault of diesels.

 

Yer actual sales representative in his 320d Sport is King Of The Fastlane because his car just happens to have mahoosive overtaking clout in the mid-range. It's the one thing (apart from economy) that turbodiesels are good at; delivering a big slab of torque at low revs. Olympic Breakfast man can overtake with impunity, in whatever gear he's in, without putting his cornish pasty down. Never mind that his car has no top end, never mind that people want to buy Ice Creams from it when they hear it at tickover.

 

For simple, brainless, not-proper-driving, turbodiesel works.

 

I once had a 335D for a fortnight. One of the most stupidly, license-losingly quick saloon car I've ever experienced, and totally plain-clothes, being just an SE (a slight ordering error on the part of our admin department). It would run from legal to deeply illegitimate speeds and back again with surreal immediacy, but the novelty wore off very quickly. I suspect that a ten year old one would be a proper nightmare of an ownership proposition, with the twin turbos to worry about.

 

I'll happily run one again as a company car. Buggered if I'd own one, though.

 

(Happy to see this debate sidelined, but can't think of a better topic )

[warren t claim]

Back in the good old days (this time last year) I was self employed and able to claim 45p a mile mileage allowance so running a 27 mpg W124 wasn't a problem, in fact I could probably fuel a P38 Rangie on my allowance. Now I'm PAYE like most other droogs I have to take an active interest in fuel economy, especially as I cover 400 miles a week private and a further 125 miles a week commuting. If this current job continues I may rationalise my fleet and have an economical daily and maybe something a bit fun, but still ok on juice, as a second car.

[Mr Lobster]

Doesn't matter whether diesels are better than petrols or not. To the majority of people buying new / nearly new diesels are better because they have heard over and over again that diesels are cheap to run. And regardless of the truth they buy them.

 

Thinking of my friends and their cars, probably 80% are newish diesels and they are happy with them. They are pretty good on mpg and quick enough. They might have OMG DPF failure at six or seven years old but the owners don't car / know about that, they'll sell 'em after three or four years and replace with a newer version anyway.

[wuvvum]

I don't have anything against diesels really, at least not older ones. I drive a diesel Rover pretty much every day and it's brilliant. OK it's not the most refined of vehicles but I really couldn't give a crap about that kind of thing. Despite the higher price of DERV it's still cheaper to run than any of the pez cars in the fleet, bar the Innocenti which has less than a quarter of the power and won't overtake for toffee - £20 gets me 160 miles, more if I'm particularly gentle.

 

I have to confess I'm slightly less complacent about the 607 though - it's only a matter of time before an electrical fault pops up or the Eolys fluid runs out and it goes into limp mode. I'm not hugely bothered because the car was so cheap, but I wouldn't want to be paying well into four figures for a 5-year old diesel that's out of warranty.

[Cavcraft]

Perhaps controversial but here goes: We have nothing to fear from electric cars, epically in cities they make a lot of sense. A lot of city families will have two cars a small electric car (replacing their current smart/polo) and a Petrol/Diesel car much as they do now.

 

I would love to make an electric car conversion out of an Allegro/Metro that has been mini-raped for its engine. Only a mix of lack of skill, lack of understanding, being a lazy swine, fear of Big Amp electrics and the almost certainty of serious injury or death is stopping me.

 

+1.

 

I don't really understand the hatred for electric cars on here at times to be honest. Can't see the problem in them and I'd roll one no danger if it saves a few quid.

[cort16]

I've got an Audi A6 diesel I use everyday. It's a nice car but when I go to buy something I want to enjoy driving and fuel isn't a consideration I'd never buy a diesel.

Modern Di diesels are worse than the old ones as they drive like shit petrols. The super duper 2.0 Di engine in the Audi, revs like a petrol but runs out off puff really easy, it's also REALLY easy to stall, which drive me crazy and lacks that fat lump torque old school turboblow diesels had.

 

Having that v6 Alfa 166 reminded me of what I've been missing having driven diesels for years.

[Tayne]

Perhaps controversial but here goes: We have nothing to fear from electric cars, epically in cities they make a lot of sense. A lot of city families will have two cars a small electric car (replacing their current smart/polo) and a Petrol/Diesel car much as they do now.

 

+1.

 

I don't really understand the hatred for electric cars on here at times to be honest. Can't see the problem in them and I'd roll one no danger if it saves a few quid.

 

Oh great, you've a saved a good few quid, maybe a tenner a day.

You've got rid of some pollution and moved the rest somewhere else.

 

Except you haven't saved any money because you spent half as much again as a normal new you car to buy the thing.

So you're gonna have to drive a lot of miles to make the sums work against a petrol.

And at some point it will run out of juice, at which point piddling range and glacial recharge time will ruin your day.

 

Or you wait until its 6 to 10 years old and run the gauntlet of a full battery replacement at a cost of way more than the car's value.

By 2020 electric cars will have the long term ownership prospects that a mid-2000s Renault does now.

 

 

And death of diesel?

Tough one.

 

As all cars are now engineered to emit as little CO2 as possible on a hopelessly unrealistic EU driving cycle official figures are become further from reality.

For the new car buyer a diesel (90% of its official fuel economy figure) makes some sense against a tiny petrol engine that only gets 50% of its official figure (Fiat Multiair anyone...).

Now if the diesel goes bang at 4 years old due to all the crap bolted to it to make it behave like a petrol there's not a lot you, I, the car buying public or the manufacturers will do about it.

Likewise, who wants to bet on the longevity of a 1.0 Ecoboost petrol engine as fitted to an S-max.

Driven by a woman with three small kids.

Who doesn't maintain her car.

 

I don't claim to have any answers.

[Spiny Norman]

I hate Diseasels with a passion, more than any other type, brand, configuration etc of car.

 

I hate the 'skeleton wanking in a filing cabinet' noise they ALL still make, along with that 'half a million miles and the big ends are shot' gruff rumble that accompanies the rattle like your upstairs neighbours' subwoofer during a Die Hard movie.

I hate the sanctimonious owners who talk of nothing but mpg like that's the be all and end all of vehicle ownership costs and the 'OMG Diesel torque' thing. Torque is like jam on a piece of toast. Spread nice and thick, evenly all over it's a thing of great joy, but when it lands in one big lump in the middle of the slice it's no use whatsoever. Which brings me to...

I hate the driving experience of modern high pressure common-rail turdo weasels. This 'nothing, nothing, nothWHOOOAAAHOMGDIZZLERTORQUEREVLIMITER' carry on really isn't an enjoyable way to drive.

 

I think it's petrol technology that has stood still these past few years while everyone in Europe has had their fling with dirty Diesel, now the penny's starting to drop about longer term running costs it could be time for some development of turbo petrol engines, like the new 1.0 120bhp Focus.

 

Or we could just stop insisting on driving a car like a battering ram fitted with all the useless shite that seems to go with modern motoring and return to the sub 1000kg small family car, instead of having some Golf class cars weighing in at more than an old BMW 5 series used to, now that should be the real challenge.

[trigger]

You've also forgot about the extra cost it will incur on your electricity bill Tayne, anyone see that house of the future program last night?, The Nissan only just made the 45 mile drive to work as the dad turned the plug off before going to bed, what would happen if you had a power cut?, You can shove your electric cars up your arse thank you!

 

Plus electric cars are ugly. FACT.