Classic car values

[SiC]

14 minutes ago, N Dentressangle said:

Just registered.

Let's hope I don't have any finger spasms 😉

Approved 🫣

[Hertz]

Not great reading from Matthewson's last auction. Hardly anything sold:

https://www.mathewsons.co.uk/auction/details/-april-timed-auction/?au=99

 

[Matty]

1 hour ago, SiC said:

Approved 🫣

My ideal 1100 is a two door. Why don't you buy it and I'll have it off you in a few years? No need to thank me now 😁

[Oi_Oi_Savaloy]

Vendors, particularly of anything 20s/30s'40s/50 (and even 60's and 70's) need to readjust to the new reality imo. Things have changed.  There will always be outliers of course, that retain their value............but those cars are already out of the reach of most.  the added element of 'how do i fix it' as literally the knowledge dies without being passed on is also an added factor.  Sheet metal working - lost art............fabrication..........dying art............spares are scarce............and no one is making any more of the rare elements ...............massively expensive if you can find the stuff at all.............leads to price inertia on top of the fact that the very people that coveted these cars are dying too now and the younger generation simply don't want them never mind covet them.

 

I'd really like a caterham..........and that market is suddenly v v sticky..............am busy trying to sort the Lotus so i can perhaps drive it for a bit and then use the proceeds of that sale to put towards a cheaper version (that I can fettle and drive without worrying about how much money is tied up in it, sat in the garage).  Starting to see one or two caterhams fall below the £10k.

 

 

[N Dentressangle]

7 minutes ago, Matty said:

My ideal 1100 is a two door. Why don't you buy it and I'll have it off you in a few years? No need to thank me now 😁

Happy to trailer it back for @SiC on Mon or Tues next week 😉

[MiniMinorMk3]

22 minutes ago, Hertz said:

Not great reading from Matthewson's last auction. Hardly anything sold:

https://www.mathewsons.co.uk/auction/details/-april-timed-auction/?au=99

 

That's their timed auction, which is the stuff that did not sell in their regular auction the week before. It always amazes me that they list stuff in that timed auction with the same estimates as the regular auction, yet they did not sell a week before. Again it is probably driven by the seller high expectations. Most of the non-sellers will probably appear again in the next auction, some might even have a reduced estimate.

This Bentley has been through the auction about 6 times, but the estimate has stayed the same.

Lot 328 - 1965 BENTLEY S3 CONTINENTAL

[SiC]

16 minutes ago, N Dentressangle said:

Happy to trailer it back for @SiC on Mon or Tues next week 😉

There's two days of auctions. I suspect it will be tomorrow when the cars are on. Today is automobilia (junk).

The BL signs are quite tempting...

[N Dentressangle]

1 minute ago, SiC said:

There's two days of auctions. I suspect it will be tomorrow when the cars are on. Today is automobilia (junk).

The BL signs are quite tempting...

Yep, nice, aren't they? Prices so far have been strong - most stuff going for double the estimate!

Cars are indeed tomorrow, with collection Mon or Tues next week 😉

[SiC]

Automobilia is fetching well above estimates. I reckon a lot of OAPs had this months pension saved up and gone for a sunny day trip down to Devon.

 

[lesapandre]

5 hours ago, MiniMinorMk3 said:

That's their timed auction, which is the stuff that did not sell in their regular auction the week before. It always amazes me that they list stuff in that timed auction with the same estimates as the regular auction, yet they did not sell a week before. Again it is probably driven by the seller high expectations. Most of the non-sellers will probably appear again in the next auction, some might even have a reduced estimate.

This Bentley has been through the auction about 6 times, but the estimate has stayed the same.

Lot 328 - 1965 BENTLEY S3 CONTINENTAL

Owned by the proprietor of the auction house it seems. 

Worn trim, corrosion round the windscreen, cracked tyres,  "worn" rear shock absorbers and non-original colour and needing "paint" mentioned in the accompanying video.

Not sure what this is all about:

"Current V5 present - missing trade slip. Paperwork includes previous V5s"

Old MOT certificates back to March 2007 - but no mention of service history and I did not see the mileage.

So some potential big bills to bring it up to scratch for the discerning connoisseur. Tackling the corrosion round the windscreen will need the dash and trim out probably.  A very complex specialist repair needing to be meticulously executed to keep the alignment right. These are coach-built by Mulliner Park Ward - I think in a mix of aluminium and steel. The specialists are P&A Wood for this kind of thing.

So really only the trade would be interested in that - very few private owners would have skills or pockets deep enough to tackle it?

Personally I would not drive a car that big and that fast on cracked tyres. Wonder what the date stamp says?

[barrett]

15 hours ago, grogee said:

Where are the people who buy things like this? 

If you remember it when it was new, you're too old to drive it now. 

If you're older and just remember them for some reason, it's a pretty miserable way to travel. A bicycle is less effort in some situations. 

I get they are history and god knows I'm doing my bit to preserve old cars but I've never met anyone who likes this sort of thing. And I can't remember the last time I saw something like this on the road. 

 

Have you ever driven, or even been in, a Vintage car? The reason they're so popular and retain their value is because they're (for the most part) really, really good. If you enjoy cars and driving it's the most 'pure' experience you can have behind the wheel. You need to have mechanical sympathy and a little bit of skill, and you're rewarded by the car when you drive it well. Pushing a car with incredibly high-geared steering along a winding country road just can't be beaten. And the reason they're still so popular, even with under-30s, is that it only takes one go behind the wheel and you instnatly 'get it' – or you don't, which is fair enough, but Vintage motoring probably has the most successful conversion rate of any cult. There's a massive, friendly scene, amazing specialist support, great events and funny people involved. Also, with something like that Riley, it's no less usable than any 1960s/70s car, as long as you're not in a hurry. I'd jump in my Riley and drive anywhere without thinking about it (and frequently do).

[danthecapriman]

9 hours ago, Llessur said:

I suspect much of this is due to the absolute homogenisation of new cars that we've seen over the last decade or so. I've had a lifelong interest in cars, old and new, but I couldn't tell a Hyundai from a Renault these days. The distinct identifies which used to seperate marques - exterior/interior styling, performance, equipment levels, special editions etc - have all but gone in the name of safety, cost cutting and general apathy towards anything different design-wise. If you'd blindfolded me back in 1998 and put me inside a Renault, when it was removed I could have told you within one second that I was sitting inside a Renault. Move me to a BMW, Ford or pretty much anything else and the outcome would have been exactly the same. Nowadays I doubt I'd be able to tell the interior of a BMW from a Kia. Everything's as boring and as identikit as all fuck.

Same with engines and trim. You had the 2.0 Granada LX? Maybe next time you'd be able to afford the 2.4 Ghia X. Had a really good year? Maybe the 2.9 V6 Cossy. All the neighbours would know how well you're doing - that company car culture of the 80s and 90s made cars a status symbol and every Tom, Dick and Harry aspired to drive something better. Kids would talk in playgrounds about the new car their dad just got, trying to trump each other on engine size and trim level. Even in primary school most of my friends knew exactly what their family car was and roughly where it sat in the hierarchy.

Now what? Getting excited because your dad's just leased a new 1.0 Polo which looks, feels, drives and sounds pretty much exactly the same as every other bit of automotive tofu on the roads? Having an argument in the playground over who's mum's got the most ULEZ-compliant car? Probably not.

Same with first cars, my sixth form car park back in 1997 was amazing - heaps of every description littering the place. Astras, Fiestas, BXs, Montegos, 205s. If it wasn't the SRi/GTi a quick trip to the breakers on a Saturday morning would at least make it look a bit like one. Some vaguely exciting cars were in reach, even as a 17 year old. One friend had a 405 SRi, another had a very ropey BX GTi, another had an Alfa Arna (heap of shit obviously, but at least it was something different). The 10 year old insurance-friendly fodder that most 17 year olds end up in nowadays just merges into one vague grey entity in my opinion - is it a Fiesta, a Corsa, an Accent? Who can tell?

No wonder younger generations aren't catching the bug - what is there for them to aspire to own? Even if there are still a few fruitier models out there, most probably wouldn't want the higher fuel, tax and congestion type charges associated with it and would opt for an e-Golf or griege 1.5 SUV box instead. That's if they want to run a car at all on top of their crippling student loans, mortgages and general adversion to anything analogue. 

I know that the classic car world is always evolving and we've seen a general trend away from pre-1970s cars as those who have emotional attachments to them dwindle in number, but I do worry that in about 20-30 years time the whole concept of car as a hobby will be largely a thing of the past.  A bit like valve radios or stationary engines - very few people remember why they're great or how they work. Anyone born after the mid-2000s won't feel a longing for anything their parents drove when they were kids, or the cars that were just out of reach when they learned to drive, or the company cars they might have been awarded after a few years of hard work. 

Kids see cars as white goods because they have become as dull as white goods so they've grown up with a completely different relationship to cars than we did. I feel sad my kids won't have the same experience.

Edit: I've just re-read the above and realised I've finally become my dad.

Couldn’t have put it better myself.

But it’s much the same with just about anything and everything in life these days, especially in this country. 
All the joy, soul and fun has gradually been sucked out of things. No more style, class or anything interesting - you must all have the bare minimum and economise fully on every aspect of your lives - seems the name of the game now.

Its a crying shame we’ve got to the point where we can now see a generation who won’t ever own or even drive a V8 engined vehicle for instance.

[EyesWeldedShut]

5 hours ago, sierraman said:

Yeah I remember the absolute shame and embarrassment when my dad got an Astra 1.4 Merit. 😂

That's bloody posh, mine rocked up in a new Skoda Estelle once - lovely shade of light green it was - set off the instant rust really well.

[EyesWeldedShut]

59 minutes ago, lesapandre said:

Wonder what the date stamp says?

Probably pre-date the date they started date stamping

[Llessur]

13 minutes ago, danthecapriman said:

Its a crying shame we’ve got to the point where we can now see a generation who won’t ever own or even drive a V8 petrol engined vehicle for instance.

Fixed it for you.

But in all seriousness I think the V8 days are well and truly gone and the V6 is only just hanging on in there on the edge of obscurity. The reality is the majority of UK kids turning 17 now, if they decide to learn to drive at all, will spend a few years driving sub 1.5 litre or hybrid cars before ending up with something fully electric. Any joy gained from the increase in performance that electric might provide will be completely offset by the general blandness of the entire package and the intrusive non-negotiable driver 'aids'.

We're a little behind out here in Oz to be fair, it's great to see some youngsters still choosing to smoke around in a 30 year old V6 Commodore but that's pretty rare and I suspect that might not last for too many more years. The homogenisation is still creeping into the new car market, the options for teens are reducing, the joy is dwindling.

[danthecapriman]

51 minutes ago, barrett said:

Have you ever driven, or even been in, a Vintage car? The reason they're so popular and retain their value is because they're (for the most part) really, really good. If you enjoy cars and driving it's the most 'pure' experience you can have behind the wheel. You need to have mechanical sympathy and a little bit of skill, and you're rewarded by the car when you drive it well. Pushing a car with incredibly high-geared steering along a winding country road just can't be beaten. And the reason they're still so popular, even with under-30s, is that it only takes one go behind the wheel and you instnatly 'get it' – or you don't, which is fair enough, but Vintage motoring probably has the most successful conversion rate of any cult. There's a massive, friendly scene, amazing specialist support, great events and funny people involved. Also, with something like that Riley, it's no less usable than any 1960s/70s car, as long as you're not in a hurry. I'd jump in my Riley and drive anywhere without thinking about it (and frequently do).

I totally get it tbh. Cars of that age have an appeal, probably more so as I’ve gotten older. They’re about as bare bones and basic as driving can get yet are still generally pretty capable as vehicles. Given the choice of a pre war car or a modern Ferrari or something to take for a blast around the lanes I’d take the pre war car hands down.

60’s 70’s and 80’s stuff is much more my thing though, which is why I own cars of that age. Although there’s plenty of people around who must wonder wtf I’m thinking swanning around in a gigantic American 70’s barge! If you want to see a car that not really all that usable that’s it! Yet I still use it anyway.😆

[sierraman]

21 minutes ago, EyesWeldedShut said:

That's bloody posh, mine rocked up in a new Skoda Estelle once - lovely shade of light green it was - set off the instant rust really well.

At least the Skoda said… something… the Astra just felt as if we’d all done something wrong to have had to put up with it. Scratchy plastics and those foul tweed seats. Worse was yet to come, after a few years of reprieve having a few decent cars he completely lost the fucking plot and bought a Zafira. 

[danthecapriman]

26 minutes ago, Llessur said:

Fixed it for you.

But in all seriousness I think the V8 days are well and truly gone and the V6 is only just hanging on in there on the edge of obscurity. The reality is the majority of UK kids turning 17 now, if they decide to learn to drive at all, will spend a few years driving sub 1.5 litre or hybrid cars before ending up with something fully electric. Any joy gained from the increase in performance that electric might provide will be completely offset by the general blandness of the entire package and the intrusive non-negotiable driver 'aids'.

We're a little behind out here in Oz to be fair, it's great to see some youngsters still choosing to smoke around in a 30 year old V6 Commodore but that's pretty rare and I suspect that might not last for too many more years. The homogenisation is still creeping into the new car market, the options for teens are reducing, the joy is dwindling.

There seems to be a generation now that just have absolutely no interest whatsoever or even no desire to even bother learning to drive. 
My last apprentice at work was like it. He hit 17 and we were saying to him about getting a first car and learning to drive and how excited he must be about it… nope! He did not give a shit. Eventually it took our employer to get on at him to get his license as it was needed for our job. He did it in the end but didn’t care at all. It seemed more of a pain in the arse for him than anything. 
I think back to when I was his age and I couldn’t get my license quickly enough! I had a car at 16 and I was on the edge of my seat for years before about getting a car and learning to drive! 
When I did get my license I was absolutely made up and went straight out in the car on my own! 
As a young man learning to drive and getting your license should be a massive milestone in your life and something to push for and celebrate after getting it. It just doesn’t seem the case nowadays.

Even my cousins son has got to 17 and had a couple of driving lessons but lost interest in it now and given up.

Mind you, on the other hand faced with the prospect of the cars that generation are likely going to be allowed to drive I think I’d give up too! 

[Llessur]

13 minutes ago, danthecapriman said:

Mind you, on the other hand faced with the prospect of the cars that generation are likely going to be allowed to drive I think I’d give up too! 

I think that's definitely part of it but there are other factors at play too. I felt exactly the same as you about learning to drive - obesessed over Auto Trader and Parker's Guide  from about the age of 13, had a car lined up at 16, took my first driving lesson on my 17th birthday and after I passed my test I spent most of the time I wasn't at college and subsequently work either driving my car, working on it or sometimes just sitting in it in a random location. 

But a car meant freedom and access to the things we couldn't easily do without a lift from our parents. That's all changed now. Shopping? Online. Maccy D's carpark? Uber Eats. Pub? They don't do it. Other socialising? Online. College/Uni? Online. Honking at girls walking down the street? Sexual assault.

Maybe kids are just more content to sit at home than we ever used to be. Weirdly, if they do leave the house it's to go for a run or something. Completely the opposite of my life as a teenager.

[IronStar]

I think the main driver for the apathy is that doing things in person became stupidly expensive, and so has anything to do with cars. 

Freedom is nice when you can afford to do anything with it. Cars are amazing when you can put the fuel in. I was car-crazy since I can remember, but for the first 3-4 years of having a license, I couldn't afford to put the fuel in, let alone anything else. 

[juular]

55 minutes ago, danthecapriman said:

There seems to be a generation now that just have absolutely no interest whatsoever or even no desire to even bother learning to drive. 

For the first half of my life I was the same. In fact for more of my life than not, I kind of hated cars as a concept and never intended to learn to drive.

The main reasons for that were living in an area where public transport was cheap and excellent and driving was a slow and expensive way to get anywhere. That's still the case in most cities or inner urban areas, and the advent of ulez zones makes that even worse.

It all changed for me when I moved to a less urban area and had to commute to work, and this coincided with the start of rail fares becoming totally unreasonable and modern trains becoming horrible to travel on. 

I vividly remember coming home from a Munro climbing trip in the Highlands, the Aircon was broken and there were no seats so I was sitting on my rucksack next to a toilet that was overflowing shit and piss into the corridor.  I applied for my provisional a few days later and within a couple of months had a shit car and a driving license.

If I still lived in an area that had buses and trains every few minutes and a ULEZ zone I don't know if I'd ever have bothered to learn, but then I wouldn't be able to do any of the hobbies I have now as they all depend on driving.

[lesapandre]

2 hours ago, EyesWeldedShut said:

That's bloody posh, mine rocked up in a new Skoda Estelle once - lovely shade of light green it was - set off the instant rust really well.

Aye Jedediah - I can remember t'ime when we had to drive round in an old bedstead...and that were luxury...

[St.Jude]

1 hour ago, danthecapriman said:

There seems to be a generation now that just have absolutely no interest whatsoever or even no desire to even bother learning to drive. 
My last apprentice at work was like it. He hit 17 and we were saying to him about getting a first car and learning to drive and how excited he must be about it… nope! He did not give a shit. Eventually it took our employer to get on at him to get his license as it was needed for our job. He did it in the end but didn’t care at all. It seemed more of a pain in the arse for him than anything. 
I think back to when I was his age and I couldn’t get my license quickly enough! I had a car at 16 and I was on the edge of my seat for years before about getting a car and learning to drive! 
When I did get my license I was absolutely made up and went straight out in the car on my own! 
As a young man learning to drive and getting your license should be a massive milestone in your life and something to push for and celebrate after getting it. It just doesn’t seem the case nowadays.

Even my cousins son has got to 17 and had a couple of driving lessons but lost interest in it now and given up.

Mind you, on the other hand faced with the prospect of the cars that generation are likely going to be allowed to drive I think I’d give up too! 

I didn't even bother learning to drive until I was 21, 15/16 years ago.

Even then it was fucking expensive to learn how to drive, let alone do the test and buy and run a car. I didn't want to get a license then not be able to afford a car, so I put it off. Even then my Dad had to help with the insurance because the cheapest I could find was £1,500 TPFT on a Peugeot 306 on Group 5 insurance. My sister's 1.2 Clio was about £2,200 at the time.

And I know from talking to my sister-in-law I think it's even worse in terms of disposable income if they can get a job.

I feel sorry for them really.

[sierraman]

1 hour ago, danthecapriman said:

There seems to be a generation now that just have absolutely no interest whatsoever or even no desire to even bother learning to drive. 
My last apprentice at work was like it. He hit 17 and we were saying to him about getting a first car and learning to drive and how excited he must be about it… nope! He did not give a shit. Eventually it took our employer to get on at him to get his license as it was needed for our job. He did it in the end but didn’t care at all. It seemed more of a pain in the arse for him than anything. 
I think back to when I was his age and I couldn’t get my license quickly enough! I had a car at 16 and I was on the edge of my seat for years before about getting a car and learning to drive! 
When I did get my license I was absolutely made up and went straight out in the car on my own! 
As a young man learning to drive and getting your license should be a massive milestone in your life and something to push for and celebrate after getting it. It just doesn’t seem the case nowadays.

Even my cousins son has got to 17 and had a couple of driving lessons but lost interest in it now and given up.

Mind you, on the other hand faced with the prospect of the cars that generation are likely going to be allowed to drive I think I’d give up too! 

I think that generation just seem to have totally different interests, sizeable amount of them not interested in having a car or going to the pub etc. 

[tooSavvy]

I sat at the Byker roundabout earlier today..... AND..... a BYD SEAL 24plate swung round and shot off >> it was a quite fetching avocado and [I truly admit to not having viewed a whole one, in the metal before...] it was Very Nice 😮. The only other styling nod I give is to Polestar [looks like a CAR 👍]...

If I was 17 and wanted to organise my driving plans = auto licence lessons only.

'Tomorrow belongs to me!' #Cabaret

🚙💨

[danthecapriman]

7 minutes ago, sierraman said:

I think that generation just seem to have totally different interests, sizeable amount of them not interested in having a car or going to the pub etc. 

most of them seem to have one interest - staring at their phones all day and pushing the buttons mega fast!😆

[sierraman]

2 minutes ago, danthecapriman said:

most of them seem to have one interest - staring at their phones all day and pushing the buttons mega fast!😆

Boring bastards. 🤣

[SiC]

3 minutes ago, danthecapriman said:

most of them seem to have one interest - staring at their phones all day and pushing the buttons mega fast!😆

They said that about our generation when we were younger and most tapped away furiously on their 3310 entering gibberish turning into words with T9 entry magic!

Truth is, it was damn expensive for us millennials to learn to drive but even more expensive now. Even worse it's difficult to get a test or even a driving instructor with massive backlogs on both. So many are holding off to learn to drive. I see it at work where grads can't drive who become mid to late 20-somethings that are finally parsing their tests for the first time. 

[Dyslexic Viking]

I can now add banning smartphones and public transport to the list if I become a dictator.

[captain_70s]

Fiancée_70s is in her late 20s and occasionally makes mention of wanting to learn to drive, but lessons are twice as expensive as when I was learning in 2009 when an hours lesson was £20, and driving in general is expensive and unpleasant. I don't think she'd bother with a manual gearbox test, given they'll be extinct soon.

She works from home, so no commute, and on the odd occasion she heads somewhere without me driving the shoddy bus/train systems will usually get her where she needs to go and sometimes back again...

Hell, even I only use a car once or twice a week. Commute in the works van, which is a shit bit of the day. Groceries get delivered. Sometimes we'll pop out to a garden centre or for a walk in the country somewhere but that's about it.