F**ked Black Rover 827 SLi - The Mistake Machine

[rovik88]

Sorry, haven’t had time to check on this till now. I’ll try to upload the schematics for you of the entire starter circuits tomorrow evening. Maybe that can help you further. And yes as already stated: If trying to measure if volts come across, you usually need to have the black probe on an earth or negative battery terminal and the red positive probe on the positive (switched) terminal of the item to test 🙂 Not the negative, otherwise you’ll measure 0 across as well 😅

I’m sure you’ll get there eventually. The solenoid normally clicks and if you put your finger on it you can usually feel the click as well as it’s quite a powerful action to prevent arcing on the internal solenoid contacts. What I mean is that those contacts need to be closed really quick, which results in an audible click as well as (often) a physically detectable vibration when holding your finger on the solenoid housing.

You may also try to bridge the solenoid and see if the starter motor turns, but be sure that you know what you’re doing when trying that!

[St.Jude]

Thanks @rovik88

You don't happen to know another way, or someone else, who does EKA codes for these things? I've called MGR a few times today to see if they'd accept the documents they give electronically instead of via the post but I've not had a call back yet.

[Marina door handles]

The only time I have come across the pure unadulterated evil that is an EKA code was with my P38 Range Rovers. If its got one, (which I doubt) its often hand written as a 4 digit code in the front page of the owners manual or service book. 

[St.Jude]

30 minutes ago, Marina door handles said:

The only time I have come across the pure unadulterated evil that is an EKA code was with my P38 Range Rovers. If its got one, (which I doubt) its often hand written as a 4 digit code in the front page of the owners manual or service book. 

Scoured the papers I have for it and I didn't come across any 4 digit codes.

Think tomorrow evening I'll have a bit of time after work to look through the papers again and the diagram to see if an immobiliser exists in it.

One thing I've seen Project Nigel do is once the EKA is put in he just disconnects the door lock and something else under the steering column which stops the EKA code from having to be entered. No idea though if this works without a code being entered or if one must be entered before the plugs are removed.

[Marina door handles]

I have a funny feeling our older 800s don't have the EKA system (Project Nigel's car is a P reg 1996/7) , I cannot be 100% on that but there's nothing on my car which suggests it has that particular system (L reg 94). 

You can apparently send your Vin off and get the code (if it exists) through these people .... https://www.car-keys-online.com/mg-rover-eka-code.html  but it will cost you a few pennies unfortunately.

 

[Mr Pastry]

There's nothing on the HBOL diagram to suggest that it has an immobiliser, although it might not be shown anyway - I have found this on other cars.  Doesn't it tell you in the driver's handbook? 

[St.Jude]

10 hours ago, Marina door handles said:

I have a funny feeling our older 800s don't have the EKA system (Project Nigel's car is a P reg 1996/7) , I cannot be 100% on that but there's nothing on my car which suggests it has that particular system (L reg 94). 

You can apparently send your Vin off and get the code (if it exists) through these people .... https://www.car-keys-online.com/mg-rover-eka-code.html  but it will cost you a few pennies unfortunately.

 

That's about £5 more than the people I've called, but I guess I'd get it near enough instantly.

9 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

There's nothing on the HBOL diagram to suggest that it has an immobiliser, although it might not be shown anyway - I have found this on other cars.  Doesn't it tell you in the driver's handbook? 

I don't have the handbook for it I don't think. I'll go through what I've got again tonight and see. At least last time I went through it I didn't see anything to do with an EKA.

[RoadworkUK]

I would hazard a guess that the EKA code and immobiliser came in when the remote central locking was revised from IR to RF.  E.G, when the Mk2 was facelifted circa 1995.

[St.Jude]

4 hours ago, RoadworkUK said:

I would hazard a guess that the EKA code and immobiliser came in when the remote central locking was revised from IR to RF.  E.G, when the Mk2 was facelifted circa 1995.

Maybe.

Ive gone through everything I have. I found 3x 4 digit codes in different places. Two of the 3 are the same, and that’s definitely a radio code. There is another code on a piece of printed paper from the internet but no indication as to what it’s for. So I would take that as an EKA… 

Through the books etc there is no real mention of an immobiliser. And through the diagrams I’ve got there is no mention of one either.

Here are the diagrams I have. They are copyrighted 1988.

 

[RoadworkUK]

My '88 820e definitely didn't have an immobiliser. The 1990 brochure (which yours is in) mentions infra-red remote central locking with a clever 'triple code' system, but there's no mention of an immobiliser anywhere.

[Mr Pastry]

Interestingly the power distribution diagram shows a burglar alarm fed from the starter relay.

Do you know anything about the alarm, as it would need to provide an earth before the starter relay would operate.

Can you identify the starter relay on the car?  Is it accessible?

Otherwise the circuitry is not so different from the Hbol diagram.

Re. clicking under the bonnet when starting, is this when the ignition is turned on, or when the key is turned to the start position?

When the ignition is turned on, do you get ignition/oil pressure lights, etc?

  

 

[St.Jude]

11 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

Interestingly the power distribution diagram shows a burglar alarm fed from the starter relay.

Do you know anything about the alarm, as it would need to provide an earth before the starter relay would operate.

Can you identify the starter relay on the car?  Is it accessible?

Otherwise the circuitry is not so different from the Hbol diagram.

Re. clicking under the bonnet when starting, is this when the ignition is turned on, or when the key is turned to the start position?

When the ignition is turned on, do you get ignition/oil pressure lights, etc?

I don't know about the alarm, I don't recall seeing one. I'll check on Saturday (along with the starter relay).

The clicking under the bonnet starts when I've put the key in to the start position. 95% sure that's from the ABS module/pump.

When the ignition is on/armed, I get the oil pressure light on and the battery light. The ECU light comes on for a moment but goes off (as this is the ECU check, if it stays on there is a problem).

[Mr Pastry]

If  turning the key to the start position is causing something to click, then it is either the main / EFI relay, or the starter relay, or the solenoid.

If it is the starter relay or solenoid, then the inhibitor switch must be  functioning.  Does it still click if you try and start it in gear?

At least all this suggests that the ignition switch is OK - not totally convincing but power must be getting to the crank circuit.

So it's important to know what is actually clicking.

Suggest you charge the battery before doing anything else, as it's been sitting around for a while, and these are the sort of symptoms you might get from a low battery or bad connections. 

 

 

 

 

 

[St.Jude]

Thanks @Mr Pastry.

I will try to see if it clicks while in gear.

The battery gets charged the night before every time I've gone to it, so it's strong enough I think. If not, or I think it's not strong enough, I have the Land Cruiser to jump it.

Will report back on Saturday, thanks for your help.

[St.Jude]

I’m here now but I’m limited with what I can do, which isn’t helpful but can’t be helped.

Anyway. In search of the starter relay I thought it was this one, as it was in the fuse box with an ignition key over it.

I have a “DC Proximity Switch Tester” on loan to me which is good enough to provide power, and I have my multimeter for continuity. Initially this seemed to work, but it seems to stick too. So this relay is intermittent.

Anyway I went for another look for this starter relay and found it just outside of the fuse box. The pins look every bit a starter relay.

This seems to work. When power is applied it shows continuity across two of the pins (30 & 87a). Although when there is no power there is no continuity across the two pins that I would think it go to (30 & 87). But I could be wrong on that, that’s just how the diagram reads to me.

There is also a fuse next to that relay, and I think it’s possibly this was loose. The cover was taped on and as I pulled it off the fuse was rattling around in it. I plugged that in, and the fuses back in. The yellow one is the top left one as you see here, the starter is the top top left, the fuse mentioned above it.

But nothing. 

As for alarms, I see nothing here to indicate an alarm being fitted.

Ive not been able to try the solenoid. Given the above and that the ECU is powering on and doing checks, and I’ve checked the main relay and it is working, this is probably the likely culprit. But it will have to wait until next weekend.

[mercedade]

On this, @St.Jude - is the main ground lead to the battery in as poor condition as it looks in the photo?

[Mr Pastry]

Battery earth lead doesn't look good, but I would have thought good enough to operate a few relays even if not the starter.  An extra earth from the battery to the engine block might help.

@St.Jude Why do you think the green relay is the starter?  It may be, but how did you arrive at that?

Nothing in the fuse box area looks much like the diagram - but on all the 820 diagrams I have seen the colour codes are fairly standard.  So can you check the colours of the wires going to the green relay, and the adjacent fuse, and we can then work out what it does?

I do appreciate how difficult this is when you don't have the car on site, you have limited time, and the weather is crap, etc.  I have been there.  But you have to approach this logically if you want to get anywhere with it.  Just saying.

 

[Dick Cheeseburger]

@St.Jude Would it work better to arrange a mutually convenient time between you and those on here who know their way around these reasonably well and then do a teams call or similar? You could use your phone to show the relays/wiring and then could take advice live while you're at the car. I know trying to coordinate a time between you all isn't straightforward, but it could be way more effective to test things there and then, with advice on tap. 

[Mr Pastry]

I don't think it would take a competent auto electrician very long to diagnose this.  Obviously the problem is finding such a person, but it might be worth paying for. 

[St.Jude]

So on Saturday I only had the phone with me. The diagrams I shared here I left behind me by accident. I had my lad with me but my sister wasn't around so I couldn't leave my lad lone with my mom and the dog. Hence why I was snatching at time here and didn't have the length of time I wanted.

Writing this out now I feel silly. Won't be too mysterious as to why. I settled on that relay being the starter was that I saw that on the diagram it was clear that the internal/cockpit fusebox was displayed, and the engine compartment fusebox was. And I saw on there the start relay sitting outside the designated fusebox area. Looking in the engine bay in and around the fusebox there is only that one I could find. Now looking at the diagram, there is a relay at the bottom of the diagram as well for the lights. I have looked in and around the fusebox and that is the only relay outside of the box that I can see.

The earth lead is like what it is. There are two bits of copper wire that are free from the connector. I've not noticed that until you pointed it out @mercedade.

@rovik88 has provided more manuals to me which I've now just looked at (thank you) and his diagrams show that the starter relay is inside of the engine compartment fusebox. It also shows the fuse next to what I thought was the starter relay is to do with the bulb. I don't want to share too much of what @rovik88 has sent me as it's copyrighted. So "7" here is what I took to be the starter relay, but the yellow relay I said was intermittent is labeled here as "4". There is no index for these other than the little picture on them.

I am being thick here, I know I am. I did do a Google about the starter relay location and nothing came up for it. But I think now I can say that "7", which is what I tested is working and it's for the light. "4" is flaky/intermittent.

As for a phone call - absolutely open to that. It's timing really as I'm not always over there. This weekend I have Friday open to me and I may go over the Sunday, depending on whether my sister is around to help with my lad.

 

[Noel Tidybeard]

where is car? just in case there are some of us quite close

[St.Jude]

20 hours ago, Noel Tidybeard said:

where is car? just in case there are some of us quite close

South Birmingham

[Noel Tidybeard]

5 hours ago, St.Jude said:

South Birmingham

oh really close then! i'm 1 mile from robin hood island

[St.Jude]

6 hours ago, Noel Tidybeard said:

oh really close then! i'm 1 mile from robin hood island

Ah no way! This is about 10 mins away from you.

[Noel Tidybeard]

that opens up possibilities methinks

[St.Jude]

I’m there Sunday after 12 if you’re around @Noel Tidybeard?

[Noel Tidybeard]

i'm game

[Noel Tidybeard]

of course all we need now is to know is...where🤣

[Lankytim]

My Dad is in Moseley/Hall Green so I might be able to drop by when I’m  next visiting for an hour. 

[St.Jude]

Thanks @Noel Tidybeard @Lankytim

I'll message you both shortly.