E10 fuel

[Wgl2019]

Is your old shitter compatible with the new fuel standard?

Check here https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-e10-petrol

[barefoot]

Of course it isn't, but in back to back tests my 944 gets a lot more miles to the galleon when I run it on super, so moving the entire fleet over to the better quality fuel will be a money saver in the long term - And that's man maths at its fucking finest.

[Split_Pin]

Same here.

I did change the fuel lines on the green Cavalier before I sold it however.

[Zelandeth]

Esso have been a bit of a help with this so far as their Supreme+ 99 has been kept ethanol free (except in a few specific areas) thus far.  Couldn't see any mention of this on their website when I last looked a few days ago, but does anyone know if this is likely to remain the case for a while, or it it going to be moved up to E5 now?

[Tadhg Tiogar]

4 hours ago, Wgl2019 said:

Is your old shitter compatible with the new fuel standard?

Check here https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-e10-petrol

Not a problem with this

[SiC]

15 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Esso have been a bit of a help with this so far as their Supreme+ 99 has been kept ethanol free (except in a few specific areas) thus far.  Couldn't see any mention of this on their website when I last looked a few days ago, but does anyone know if this is likely to remain the case for a while, or it it going to be moved up to E5 now?

https://www.esso.co.uk/en-gb/fuels-faqs#:~:text=The majority of unleaded 95,97 and 99 grade petrol).

"Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97 and Synergy Supreme+ 99 ) is ethanol free (Except in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland). We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of ethanol in petrol to use Synergy Supreme+ – providing they do not fill up in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland. The European standard BS EN228 covers the requirements for 0-5% ethanol unleaded petrol, the labelling requirement for zero % ethanol is E5 (as is up to 5%), a E0 label doesn’t exist."

[willswitchengage]

I am out of the loop here. Are we getting multiple petrol pumps for different E grades like they have in Germany?

[danthecapriman]

12 minutes ago, willswitchengage said:

I am out of the loop here. Are we getting multiple petrol pumps for different E grades like they have in Germany?

I think it’ll be the same as ever here - current 95 unleaded (E5) pumps will simply be re-labelled as 95 unleaded (E10). 
                                                                                   Current super unleaded pumps will stay as they are - no Ethanol or E5.

 

I had a look on the gov website earlier at mine and was surprised to find the Volvo, despite its age, can use E10 fine (almost all Volvo models since 1976 can) the others can’t. Not sure about the Mercury though as it’s not listed! 
Im going to use super unleaded whenever it’s available from now tbh, I’ll just stick some ethanol additives in for the times I can’t. I don’t think it’s going to be a particularly big deal really.

[Zelandeth]

21 minutes ago, SiC said:

https://www.esso.co.uk/en-gb/fuels-faqs#:~:text=The majority of unleaded 95,97 and 99 grade petrol).

"Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97 and Synergy Supreme+ 99 ) is ethanol free (Except in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland). We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of ethanol in petrol to use Synergy Supreme+ – providing they do not fill up in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland. The European standard BS EN228 covers the requirements for 0-5% ethanol unleaded petrol, the labelling requirement for zero % ethanol is E5 (as is up to 5%), a E0 label doesn’t exist."

Yeah, that's the same text as on the page for a while - just curious to see if with the introduction of E10 if it will change.  Hopefully it will remain the case for a while.  I'd really rather avoid the stuff if I can.

[horriblemercedes]

3 minutes ago, danthecapriman said:

I think it’ll be the same as ever here - current 95 unleaded (E5) pumps will simply be re-labelled as 95 unleaded (E10). 
                                                                                   Current super unleaded pumps will stay as they are - no Ethanol or E5.

 

I had a look on the gov website earlier at mine and was surprised to find the Volvo, despite its age, can use E10 fine (almost all Volvo models since 1976 can) the others can’t. Not sure about the Mercury though as it’s not listed! 
Im going to use super unleaded whenever it’s available from now tbh, I’ll just stick some ethanol additives in for the times I can’t. I don’t think it’s going to be a particularly big deal really.

Super unleaded is E5. 0-5% ethanol petrol is E5.

 

The only super I know to contain 0% ethanol is Esso Supreme+ and even then, in many areas it's not 0% ethanol 

[St.Jude]

5 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Yeah, that's the same text as on the page for a while - just curious to see if with the introduction of E10 if it will change.  Hopefully it will remain the case for a while.  I'd really rather avoid the stuff if I can.

I remember reading from the Government that Super Unleaded wouldn't be made to include the 10%, so it stands as a "compatible" fuel for those who can't run E10.

[EightMegs]

The Yaris is E10 ready but the Starlet isn't. I wonder what will need replacing if I do want to use E10.

[jamescarruthers]

Sadly “north England” is a big big and vague isn’t it!

[Toe]

On 6/22/2021 at 12:23 PM, danthecapriman said:

 

 

I had a look on the gov website earlier at mine and was surprised to find the Volvo, despite its age, can use E10 fine (almost all Volvo models since 1976 can) the others can’t. Not sure about the Mercury though as it’s not listed! 
 

When I looked Saab was the same since the mid 80's I think, all 3 Japanese I have from the 90's are a no but the Saab 900 yes, those Swedes knew something alright!!

I did think on changing the hoses but many are fitted with hard lines so too much grief and new parts no chance so will just move over to super unleaded

[chodweaver]

(Except in Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England and Scotland).

So it's only ethanol free in south Wales, the Midlands, east Anglia and the south east then...

[meggersdog]

Looks like the mighty Nissan isn't compatable or the Range Rover (if I ever get it back on the road) but the Peugeot is. Best put a super only sticker on the Nissan petrol flap then otherwise I will probably forget.

[PhilA]

It's actually a Thing here, blue on the left 90 octane ethanol free, orange on the right 87 E10.

Main reason, this station is on the way to the coast, and if you've run a boat on fuel with ethanol in, you'll have lived to regret it...

[PhilA]

1 hour ago, HarmonicCheeseburger said:

I assume all you have to change is the fuel line/hoses? because I imagine injector seals for a Pre-FL K11 1994 that are E10 capable simply won't exist if they're required too.  

Basically anything rubber that is going to be in contact with the fuel or fuel vapor.

I had to change the seals in the pump, the rubber lines, o-rings etc in the Renault because the ethanol caused the pipe to turn to jelly and blew right open, with only 15psi on it.

Phil

[steveo3002]

4 hours ago, PhilA said:

Basically anything rubber that is going to be in contact with the fuel or fuel vapor.

I had to change the seals in the pump, the rubber lines, o-rings etc in the Renault because the ethanol caused the pipe to turn to jelly and blew right open, with only 15psi on it.

Phil

do they fail instant ish or over months /years

considering folk here often get mixed up with derv/petrol i cant see the general public knowing what to do , so are we going to have dozens of older cars dumped on the streets the day after they start selling this?

[barefoot]

7 hours ago, PhilA said:

Basically anything rubber

I've read that ethanol will eventually degrade brass components in carburettors & steel fuel tanks - although this may be utter bollocks.

[Conan]

3 hours ago, steveo3002 said:

do they fail instant ish or over months /years

considering folk here often get mixed up with derv/petrol i cant see the general public knowing what to do , so are we going to have dozens of older cars dumped on the streets the day after they start selling this?

 

No, they wouldn't fail in an instant. I used to own an "incompatible" car that's been running on E20 for nearly 10 years without any issue, still running on that stuff too.  Also, considering typical UK fuel is now E5. 5% more ethanol wouldn't make night and day of a difference.

 

18 minutes ago, barefoot said:

I've read that ethanol will eventually degrade brass components in carburettors & steel fuel tanks - although this may be utter bollocks.

 

I don't think ethanol would do much more to metals than what petrol would already do. It's the fact that they're hygroscopic that's corroding the stuff.

 

There are two ways to store ethanol infused petrol, either you have none of it, or absolute filled to the brim tank. Anything in between is the issue. However, the solution to this is very simple, you just have to cycle the stuff through by running the car a bit once a month and it'll pose no issue.

 

Rubber degradation is more of a problem, but there's plenty of aftermarket solution to it. Even Phil's Renault still have bits to make it work.

 

I've recently had the pleasure to start a 1994 very much incompatible Nissan Pulsar that's been sat with E10 in the tank for 2 years. It ran perfectly right to the moment the original rubber fuel line had a catastrophic failure due to dry rotting in combination with ethanol degradation. Fuel itself is perfectly usable. Replace broken bits and it'll be reet.

 

In conclusion, it might seems scary because it's an unfamiliar change. But as it's been in use elsewhere for decades. People all over the world have found solution to the issues and cope with it. It's annoying, of course, but I can't see it being much different from when they stop selling 4 star.

[Zelandeth]

3 hours ago, steveo3002 said:

do they fail instant ish or over months /years

considering folk here often get mixed up with derv/petrol i cant see the general public knowing what to do , so are we going to have dozens of older cars dumped on the streets the day after they start selling this?

Generally over time... though how much time whether you're talking hours or years depends entirely on the exact composition of the component in question.

Which makes it all the more worrying in my opinion as it's the main reason that there's so much debate about whether it's something we really need to worry about or not.  A lot of ethanol related failures could simply be written off by many motorists as "old car failures" rather than related to anything in the fuel.

Given that it *can* affect anything rubber or plastic that's in contact with the fuel (but might be fine!), retrofitting a non-compliant car in many cases just isn't going to be an option for a lot of people.  Especially with 80s/90s/00s cars with multipoint injection systems, hard plastic fuel lines and plastic tanks.

"It'll probably be okay" for me just isn't good enough for me where fuel systems are concerned... I'd really rather not have my car turn itself into a fireball halfway up the M1 with me and my family in it because the only fuel I could buy dissolved the injection system seals.

Given the safety implications of this I'm honestly surprised it's been introduced the way it has with near zero fanfare. 

[horriblemercedes]

23 hours ago, jamescarruthers said:

Sadly “north England” is a big big and vague isn’t it!

Yes... Esso used to specify it as Teesside but I assume that the area has broadened 

[PhilA]

5 hours ago, steveo3002 said:

do they fail instant ish or over months /years

considering folk here often get mixed up with derv/petrol i cant see the general public knowing what to do , so are we going to have dozens of older cars dumped on the streets the day after they start selling this?

Took about a year for it to turn the rubber pipe no good, but that was inside the fuel tank. It had done the same to the injector o-ring too.

As for the brass and steel degradation- it can happen. Usually water separates from gasoline fully and will pool at the lowest point below the fuel. Ethanol causes the water to be held in fine droplets in suspension, so if you have some wet fuel, run the car for a bit then leave it parked for an extended period, the water that would usually stay in the tank ends up in the rest of the fuel system and can cause corrosion. Diesel does this, that's why derv have a water filter before the injectors.

 

Phil

[St.Jude]

3 hours ago, barefoot said:

I've read that ethanol will eventually degrade brass components in carburettors & steel fuel tanks - although this may be utter bollocks.

So from what I can gather, the E10 is more hydroscopic so will hold (or introduce, can't really remember) water to the fuel tank. So if the car is sat with half a tank for extended amounts of time, then it will start to rust from the inside.

Like our good from @Remspoor though and his fuel tank adventures, that can be fixed. I doubt it's going to be an issue for those who use the cars regularly enough to warrant full tanks though. 

[tooSavvy]

Suzuki state 'build yr 2008' for E10 compatibility..... Looks like SuziQ @'98 may be dodgy, going forward.

I get through a fair bit of juice, half tanks... not sitting for 3months at a time

Just the thought of a sudden 'post fuel inj pump' fireball is, well, SOBERING  

Hmmm...

[St.Jude]

19 minutes ago, tooSavvy said:

Just the thought of a sudden 'post fuel inj pump' fireball is, well, SOBERING  

Handy in winter though...

[tooSavvy]

Further reading...

Older - noncompliant vehicles :-

To ensure they can continue to run, the government plans to require that higher-octane ‘Super’ fuel will continue to be made to E5 standards while E10 becomes the default for ‘Premium’ grade 95 octane fuel. 

So.... Just pay £more @pump 

ah well.....

[Zelandeth]

Sure they'll change their minds in about that in about six months.  Shame they couldn't have just left super as ethanol free...the 5/10 difference is pretty pointless...E5 will just rot stuff slower than E10!

They're just hoping the older cars will die of old age and nobody will complain I reckon.

[Burnside]

As usual in this country, there fucking about with something on the pretence of helping the environment. When all it has to do with is money. Great. 

My 2006 Fiat Stilo 1.6 pez won't run on E10, although if it was a 1.2/ 1.4 it would. It's not the best economically as it's a heavy car for its size. So if I'm having to pay more at the pump for E5 super etc every time I fill up. Then it isn't going to be viable for me to keep it. 

Cunts.