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It is just so Super (Sentinel).


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That seems to be the gist of it. If you use it without asking then they will get all Biblical on your bottom and start throwing around cease and desist requests before the pant has dried. If you ask then most seem to be fairly happy. Given that there will be a fair bit of money in the sign writing we don't fancy going over it with Valspar on pain of being sued into oblivion.


There are a few models on sale of early Boots vehicles around so they can't be too averse to it being used.


I think we'll start with a nice friendly letter. If that doesn't work we'll try an even friendlier one.

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One photo that took my eye was this one here. This was owned by the Sheffield grocers (they must have been more than that to justify the massive investment in one of these things) Arthur Davy and Sons...


I really like the big box body and butch looking tail gate and doors. Unless some Sheffield local historian knows different it appears that the waggon is painted mostly red.


What I'm looking for is some ideas of suitable liveries for a wagon like the box van above. The rules are:


- Preferrably black, dark blue or green. However, other colours/ shades will be considered.

- Absolutely not red, yellow or white as the main colour.

- Household names are good but not mandatory

- The livery needs to fit in with the box van body - a quarrier would be unlikely to have a box van

- It would be nice if the nature of the buiness was nice. I'm not sure I fancy having a box van owned by Scruttocks Maggot Farmers and Rotten Carcass Disposers Ltd. That said, I really fancy a fag company livery but I haven't found one yet.

- One oddity about the livries for most steam waggons is that they have a big, featureless front apron where most lorries had their radiators. This brings both benefits and drawbacks when designing a livery.


Already under consideration:


- Lipton's Tea (Lyons has already been done)  - Dark green, gold leaf lettering, black chassis

- Tate and Lyle Sugar Refiners - Dark blue, gold leaf lettering, black chassis

- Boots Manufacturing Chemists - Dark olive green, gold leaf lettering, black chassis

- Shore Porters' Society, Aberdeen - Dark blue, white lettering, red wheels, black chassis

- Pickfords Removals and Storage - Dark blue, white lettering, red wheels, black chassis

- Just making up some shit that looks nice.


Thoughts, suggestions and pointers gratefully recieved.

From what was said previously about these wagons being suitable for heavy loads over long distances then tobacco companies would be unlikely to use them. I'm wondering if the Sheffield business included baking or butchery which might justify the large load capacity. Further thinking along those lines says chemical or mineral industry. So, flour, limestone, cement, chemical powder type products. Is it possible they were used for transporting soap or washing powder type material?

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Livery? Here you go, a nice practical dark green and an obscure 'who'd have known it' autoshite connection (and bonus Skoda 706 peaking around the corner)...




or for autoshite trips out, try this combination...




Clearly these two are victims of the VAG emission scandal, they may be subject to a recall.

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I thought I would add to the Sentinel love here...


Two images from a collection of 35mm slides I've recently scanned, so never been seen before!!!..


Hawerby Park steam rally, Lincolnshire, 13th & 14th June 1970...


BEV 467 - 'Holmevalian'




and what I believe is AW 3321, mainly because of the cab design, but I think the 'clincher' is the indicators on the mudguards...





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Livery? Here you go, a nice practical dark green and an obscure 'who'd have known it' autoshite connection (and bonus Skoda 706 peaking around the corner)...


attachicon.gifskoda sentinel 2.jpg


or for autoshite trips out, try this combination...


attachicon.gifskoda sentinel.jpg


Clearly these two are victims of the VAG emission scandal, they may be subject to a recall.


is that a Super with a bus body on it?


I was wondering if it would be possible to build a bus body one, paint in Autoshite colours and have the Autoshite official bus service  :mrgreen:

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I've not seen the Fry's one - that is worth some more research. Cadbury's has already been done and while the Shepherd Neame one is tempting it's not a van body but a drop side with a canvas tilt. The other problem is the livery looks a bit rubbish.


Boots has hit bit of a problem because I can find no record of Boots owning any Supers. It's not a deal breaker but it might make it harder to get the story straight in my head.

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We did a trailer for the last one. Used it once, decided it was a complete pain in the neck and the thing lay in the yard for years rotting away. The other thing is that if you look at the tax classification of historic vehicle one of the exclusions is that you aren't allowed to draw a trailer. I know lots of people do and I doubt you would ever be pulled for it but I wouldn't like to argue my corner in court in the event of an incident.


I'm not aware of any Sentinels being used by showmen but as with most things it was usually tried once.

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does it have to be an "authentic" livery?


why not make you're own up? maybe stick to darker colours as these will wear better in service in stead of a lighter colour, plus kawazaki green isn't going to look right, no matter what.


so maybe navy blue, brunswick green and maroon? especially maroon, with yellow or black or both for lining. cos it needs to be lined out.


and then use you companies name on the side, with the 'phone number.


i've seen a few steam rollers painted up like that, i'm assuming by owners who are also contractors and maybe use the engine as an advertising thing?

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I've not seen the Fry's one - that is worth some more research.


Found this picture - a biscuit tin from the 1920's. Should be easy to keep clean; dark blue seems to be predominant in Fry's corporate colours.




I found the photo on Google Images, but the link to Pinterest doesn't seem to work.

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Whilst I was at HMS Sultan I volunteered on theirs, was great fun especially on outings. Most fun you can have at 15 MPH! Proper engineering, whilst there we made a lot of items from scratch, for instance nuts and bolts. It is a regular at the Southern steam rallies towing its living van.

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does it have to be an "authentic" livery?


why not make you're own up? maybe stick to darker colours as these will wear better in service in stead of a lighter colour, plus kawazaki green isn't going to look right, no matter what.


so maybe navy blue, brunswick green and maroon? especially maroon, with yellow or black or both for lining. cos it needs to be lined out.


and then use you companies name on the side, with the 'phone number.


i've seen a few steam rollers painted up like that, i'm assuming by owners who are also contractors and maybe use the engine as an advertising thing?

In short, not it doesn't have to be authentic. When most of these were turned out they were usually painted black or brown and had the owners name blocked across the front apron with some additional waffle on the cab sides. When we built the last one that was what we did. We can't have done too badly because it has the same livery on it today.




However, "big", recognisable liveries look pretty good and are handy from a resale point of view when we off load it because we're bored of it. Now, if I had an artistic bone in my body I could sit down and design a 1920s livery for our company, complete with plenty of gold leaf and a hand painted portrait of a secretary looking person suggesting that Modus Patented Accounting Machines are a boon! The problem is that my artistic development petered out when I was about six so that isn't going to happen. All we're left with is copying something else. 


The alternative is just paint the whole thing black and put something like "Alloa Road Services" on the front. That seems like a bit of a wasted opportunity.


Incidentally, Express Dairy had a lot of Supers. Their livery is perhaps a little too busy.



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Not my area of expertise, but kind of you to think of me.  Signwriting and livery design is an art form all itself.


I know it's a different era, but perhaps in t-t-t-times guh-gone by, Arkwrights was a much bigger cuh-concern and cuh-could afford such luxuries as a steam engine?




You know, before guh-Granville came along and became a liability.

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A quick update. There are times when a lot gets done but there isn't a lot of visible progress.


However, this is reasonably visible. First fit of the front axle beam hanging on by the skin of its teeth. This is meant to be held in with a slice of 1/2" plate and 4 off 3/4" whit bolts. There will also be a 1" packing piece between the axle mount and the spring. This was to lift the chassis up to increase clearance when they converted them from solids to pneumatics. This will do for starters.




You should start to get an idea of how the front axle works. Badly, mainly.




Can't see the join. The bend is so it fits around the boiler. These were forged originally so they looked a little rough and ready. We've tried to replicate this. Once the paint is on it you wouldn't tell the difference.




So now the beam is in place we can go back to these bits which have lain on the floor for a few months while other things were done. A swivel. You see the big hole in the axle beam? That takes the pivot pin. Then the stub axles go through the big hole in the swivel. Ovbiously there are a few bronze bushes needed too.




The other thing that has been started is the cab. The footplate was cut and fitted a few weeks back so now we are happy with the curve on that all the other bits of the front apron copy it. This is the 1" angle that takes the bottom of the apron plate. Bending angle is a right pain in the arse and it takes a lot of heating and tweaking to get it right. Actually, bending angle is a piece of proverbial if you have bending rolls that can take angle but we don't so we have to freehand it.


A bit of 1" angle. Wow.




See the 12 foot radius on the front section? Important bit that. It's what makes a Super look like a Super.


The next bit is trickier. The angle sets the shape at the bottom of the cab but at the top where the roof is there is the ash bend. This was originally bent from a 3"x1" section of ash which was steamed and bent to shape. This wasn't very durable and if you look at period photographs (and a fair few current ones) you'll see ash bends bodged back together with plate, chewing gum and string. When we did the last one we fabricated the ash bend in steel which is somewhat more long lasting even if it is a bit of a pain to build.


There is a length of 1" box section at the top and the same at the bottom. There is then 3"x 1/8th flat section on the vertical faces. Tack it all together, make it look pretty and no one would ever tell the difference. Easy to say, takes a bit longer to do. It is made easier because you are trying to replicate the curves and angles of the footplate which means you have a handy, very stiff and just at the right height jig to work from. You should be able to make out the top and bottom box sections and the front vertical being tacked into place. I was actually in the process of taking it off at this point which is why there are almost no clamps on it. You never have enough clamps. Please be a tiny bit impressed with the shape. We're pretty pleased with that.




And the same from the other side. It got bigger than this after the picture was taken because it extends to the rear of the cab.




Check out the curves on that. There is a lot of welding, grinding and fettling to go before it looks plausible. Good start, though.




Things to think about while you are working. Express is falling out of favour, BTW.


We now have a Sentinel drawing for a van body which looks pretty good and shouldn't be too horrific to buy the wood for so it's definitely having a big box body on it. By the way - look at the top picture (photocopied out of a sales brochure which explains the flowery language) see the rail running around the roof of the cab? That's the ash bend. This picture isn't a perfect representation of what they actually made but it is a very good image to keep you on track while you try to work out what goes where.




Drawings from the archives. Most of the information is in there as long as you take everything with a pinch of salt.




This, for example is the rear hub for the pnuematic converstion. Make two of these and you've nearly got a back axle. Doddle. Ish.




Finally today the stiffening plate for the rear drawbar. A chunk of 1/4" plate which will be held in with 23 5/8" rivets. The bits of channel are what the water tank will hang from.




What's next:


Cab uprights to get bent

Front footplate to cut around steering box

Boiler to drop in

Front axle to get on with

Ash bend to finish

Wood cutting list to finalise

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