invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[JJ0063]

23 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

 

@brummiejon this would make for an excellent stable mate to Flo  

I would take a punt at it myself, but I dont have anywhere to keep such a machine sadly, which is a shame because it would be ideal for doing local trips where REV would not get a chance to warm up properly, like runs to the post office or chippy! 

(I think its a bit big to keep in the back of a black cab!)

 

If you decide to buy it Dez, I’ve got my old motorbike helmet you can have.

[LightBulbFun]

8 hours ago, egg said:

It would amaze people to know that was a 'government approved' vehicle up until 2003! I assume the people who re-built it would be an approved repairer workshop?

only because the Users demanded it! the Ministry tried quite hard to Axe the Argson, but there where a dedicated band of users who did not want anything else (or could not use anything else)

On 25/09/2020 at 19:56, LightBulbFun said:

I might get shouted at for this, but one on this sub section I wanted to mention, the Stanley Argson Model 44 electric invalid carriage 

production ended in 1955, but a surprising number of them remained in service into the 1980s some into 1990s and even 1 possibly right until the end of the IVS scheme in 2003!

several invalid vehicles where introduced to replace it, like the AC Model 64 and the Tippen Delta Model 69E, and although a few of those also survived similarly until the end

it is impressive just how many users clung onto their Argsons for as long as they could especially so as that when these machines where introduced, they where only projected to have 7 year life spans, I know of no other 1950's invalid carriage that survived for so long in such great numbers

its worth nothing that I can find about 45 Stanley Argsons on the DVLA computer still, (and to show up on the DVLA computer a vehicle has to survive until about 1981 at the earliest) but I cant find a single other 1950s Ministry machine of any other type

\

 

On 13/10/2022 at 01:32, LightBulbFun said:

for me it has to be the Electric Stanley Argson, I really love the way they just kept soldiering on 

the last one of these of a production run of about 1900~ rolled off the line in 1955, they where given a 7 year lifespan by the Ministry

yet even in the 1980's about 50 of them where still plodding along at 12Mph!, with a few surviving into the 1990's and even at least 1 that made it all the way to the end of the scheme in 2003!

Id love to know how many sets of traction batteries these long survivors  went through!

they clung on through both by being built like a brick shit-house, and by virtue of filling in their niche very well and thus having a small band of very dedicated users who just refused to let the Ministry upgrade them to anything newer/larger

Id love to find a photograph of one of these properly mingling in 1980's/1990's traffic can you imagine how incongruous it would of looked even back then? hard to imagine it but they did!

 

 

 

the name of the company on the plaque sounded familiar to me, turns out Ross where these folks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Auto_Engineering

@Mrs6C you should buy it for the Milk float connection  

 

interesting to hear how they diversified into health care in the end, I wonder if rebuilding Argsons was the genesis of that?

[Eyersey1234]

I wonder how many people were still using the blue invalid cars in 2003, there can't have been many by that point

[LightBulbFun]

3 hours ago, Eyersey1234 said:

I wonder how many people were still using the blue invalid cars in 2003, there can't have been many by that point

really depends when in 2003, since they where being with drawn en masse starting in about 1998, but by the end of the 31st of March 2003, which was supposed to be the end of the scheme, however there where still about 33 Invalid vehicles users still running around in their machines at that point in time

it took until the 14th of October 2004 for the last one to finally be withdrawn, TJN352R "belonging" to Mrs Marion Webb  

 

and then there where also of course private machines, which where un-affected by the Ministry cull, but the last Private Model 70's seemed to have come off the road around then anyhow, perhaps influenced by all the Ministry shenanigans going on?

I know @Datsuncog and his team where aware of private users and I seem to recall reading there was some confusion on how to handle them (obviously with a Private Machine, you cant just take it off someone, that would be theft LOL), but I am not sure how they where handled or not, IE if they where given any sort of motability pamphlets or such 

[JJ0063]

 

can’t recall if I’ve posted this before 

[quicksilver]

On 11/12/2023 at 23:45, LightBulbFun said:

only because the Users demanded it! the Ministry tried quite hard to Axe the Argson, but there where a dedicated band of users who did not want anything else (or could not use anything else)

 

 

 

 

the name of the company on the plaque sounded familiar to me, turns out Ross where these folks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Auto_Engineering

@Mrs6C you should buy it for the Milk float connection  

 

interesting to hear how they diversified into health care in the end, I wonder if rebuilding Argsons was the genesis of that?

There's a Ross milkfloat at the Wythall Transport Museum.

Makes a lot of sense to get a milkfloat builder to work on the electric carriages as milkfloats were pretty much the only electric vehicles around in quantity back then. The Argsons seem to be an obvious bridge between their milkfloat and mobility vehicle production.

[Mrs6C]

Putting these suggestions for mobility scooter ramps on here rather than derail the eBay thread...

Mobility scooters are not very heavy. Making use of a lightweight portable ramp instead of requiring the vehicle to have its own would give you more choices, if you want to go down the route of acquiring another car for mobility scooter garaging duties.

Even a couple of floorboards cut to the right length would be fine as a portable ramp. There are 'proper' portable ramps available on the market too. Those made  out of aluminium are lightweight and smart, like this nice folding one:
https://www.careco.co.uk/clever-roll-ramp/

Scaffold boards may be a bit over the top for the job, but they are ideal for loading narrow gauge railway wagons...

 

[Spottedlaurel]

@LightBulbFun I'm hoping you can clear up a mystery for me, it's something that has been with me for 40+ years....

Do you have a list of official/authorised Invacar service/repair depots please? Reason for asking is because of this place on Hawke Road, Ipswich, that was recently demolished: https://maps.app.goo.gl/jjDdogArcpjEixt89

Back in the very early '80s I have a distinct memory of being driven past the side of the garage and seeing a load of Invacars in there, maybe even stacked-up but certainly several of them in the gap between the workshop and adjacent road.

You can see how visible it would have been here from Holbrook Road: https://maps.app.goo.gl/5vKP5sKnavHdRf4a6

 

By coincidence, and on a slightly related note, there was this interesting place just south of nearby Sandy Hill Lane (and west of the old Volvo car import yard) visible on satellite maps which always intrigued me:

Clearly had private roads, but they didn't look big enough for full-size cars. Google Earth images show it gradually being recalimed by nature, now it's pretty much disappeared.

Eventually I realised there was still a sign at the site entrance for Maclean Centre. A 1991 planning application shows them applying for "Formation of Mobility Training Centre, with driving circuit...." and they were later listed as "Maclean Trust Assessment & Wheelchair Training Centre". It all seems to have ended on a rather sour note after no more than 10 years in operation, maybe less: https://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/22004055.wheelchair-charity-grinds-stop/

[LightBulbFun]

3 hours ago, Mrs6C said:

Putting these suggestions for mobility scooter ramps on here rather than derail the eBay thread...

Mobility scooters are not very heavy. Making use of a lightweight portable ramp instead of requiring the vehicle to have its own would give you more choices, if you want to go down the route of acquiring another car for mobility scooter garaging duties.

Even a couple of floorboards cut to the right length would be fine as a portable ramp. There are 'proper' portable ramps available on the market too. Those made  out of aluminium are lightweight and smart, like this nice folding one:
https://www.careco.co.uk/clever-roll-ramp/

Scaffold boards may be a bit over the top for the job, but they are ideal for loading narrow gauge railway wagons...

 

its a really good point you bring up there, one I was actually thinking about, since while researching mobility scooter cranes, I found this picture

and I was looking at that folded up scooter and thinking to myself Jeez thats small enough I could probably even take with me to places in REV  

but obviously REV does not have a wheel chair ramp! but I was thinking, with her wide door aperture and flat floor, it would not be hard to have something that could just hook into it

 

my concern with it regarding a more normal/modern car is the hight of the door/boot aperture and and the angle of the ramp itself

its very much something I wish I could experiment/play with before committing serious money to it. (even with the taxi idea, its something I'd like to try out with say the FoD scooter and a borrowed black cab to see if they would be compatible with each other etc!)

[AnthonyG]

@LightBulbFun, I rescued this from being binned at work recently with you in mind:

Dated 1984. Bonus pictures of the Rover SD1 assembly line, the London Stock Exchange trading floor circa 1980, and an S registration Scammell 8 wheel tipper. 

Will bring it to the next FoD event that you attend. 

[warren t claim]

On 12/12/2023 at 10:35, Eyersey1234 said:

I wonder how many people were still using the blue invalid cars in 2003, there can't have been many by that point

I remember one fella who drank in a local "Winchester" type club I used to frequent hung onto his until about then. It was amusing to see him drive home after downing eight pints.

Another observation is I've never seen a driver of an Invacare wear a seat belt. Nothing wrong with that of course.

[LightBulbFun]

2 hours ago, Spottedlaurel said:

@LightBulbFun I'm hoping you can clear up a mystery for me, it's something that has been with me for 40+ years....

Do you have a list of official/authorised Invacar service/repair depots please? Reason for asking is because of this place on Hawke Road, Ipswich, that was recently demolished: https://maps.app.goo.gl/jjDdogArcpjEixt89

Back in the very early '80s I have a distinct memory of being driven past the side of the garage and seeing a load of Invacars in there, maybe even stacked-up but certainly several of them in the gap between the workshop and adjacent road.

You can see how visible it would have been here from Holbrook Road: https://maps.app.goo.gl/5vKP5sKnavHdRf4a6

I dont have a list of Approved repairers, but I probably should put something together, granted I know someone who might already have such a list so ill consult with them first  

however its worth noting it may of all been a scrap yard or other such storage/disposal yard, in the late 1970's and early 1980's is when the bulk of Villiers machines where withdrawn so they could be found quite literally pilled high in quite a few places awaiting their untimely demise

so that might be another avenue to explore as to what was going on there  

 

[Eyersey1234]

Did the Ministry invalid vehicles have to be repaired/serviced etc at an approved repairer or could any garage service them? Also how were the private ones sold, was it through an approved dealer or did they have to be ordered through the ministry?

[Mr Pastry]

4 hours ago, Eyersey1234 said:

Did the Ministry invalid vehicles have to be repaired/serviced etc at an approved repairer or could any garage service them?

IIRC back in the 1970s, normal garages were very unwilling to get involved.  Apart from being an unfamiliar vehicle, I can imagine there would be a lot of red tape around getting parts and payment from the Ministry, so most garages wouldn't want the hassle.  Then as now.

[Mr Pastry]

6 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

its a really good point you bring up there, one I was actually thinking about, since while researching mobility scooter cranes, I found this picture

and I was looking at that folded up scooter and thinking to myself Jeez thats small enough I could probably even take with me to places in REV  

but obviously REV does not have a wheel chair ramp! but I was thinking, with her wide door aperture and flat floor, it would not be hard to have something that could just hook into it

 

my concern with it regarding a more normal/modern car is the hight of the door/boot aperture and and the angle of the ramp itself

its very much something I wish I could experiment/play with before committing serious money to it. (even with the taxi idea, its something I'd like to try out with say the FoD scooter and a borrowed black cab to see if they would be compatible with each other etc!)

Your local branch of REMAP could probably help you with ramps etc.  If you don't know them, they are a charity run basically by retired engineers, who make and modify equipment for the disabled.  They might even be willing to do a bit of Invacar maintenance, you never know. 

[eifion]

Just spotted this picture on the Manchester Evening News site. Is it one you're aware of?

[quicksilver]

2 hours ago, eifion said:

Just spotted this picture on the Manchester Evening News site. Is it one you're aware of?

That must be a rare example of an L-suffix reg on black plates, from the 5 months in 1972 between L appearing in August and black plates being outlawed at the end of the year. Interesting that Model 70s carried on using black plates right to the end of their legality as most vehicles seem to have switched over to reflective ones not long after they were introduced.

[LightBulbFun]

6 hours ago, eifion said:

Just spotted this picture on the Manchester Evening News site. Is it one you're aware of?

I am aware of the block, but not that particular picture, nice find its NPJ769L, came off the road not too long after that picture was taken going by its lack of a public-facing DVLA record

4 hours ago, quicksilver said:

That must be a rare example of an L-suffix reg on black plates, from the 5 months in 1972 between L appearing in August and black plates being outlawed at the end of the year. Interesting that Model 70s carried on using black plates right to the end of their legality as most vehicles seem to have switched over to reflective ones not long after they were introduced.

indeed its nice to get a close up shot like that of one! although its a shame the whole plate is not in shot, but its still the best picture I have thus far of such a setup, all my own shots are just fuzzy screen grabs or background shots

Ministry Model 70's and Ministry invalid vehicles in general always *specifically* had white/silver on black number plates from the factory until the very end of that being legally allowed, as you say this makes them a rare example of genuine period L suffix white/silver-on-black plates  

 

if you search my thread you can find a few examples as I have had to bring it up a few times, because ill often mention it in passing, and then someone will inevitably say "oh but retro-reflective plates where introduced in 1968, and most cars switched pretty quickly to them, so that Model 70 probably never had white on black plates"

and indeed while that is generally the case for most regular cars, it was not for Ministry Invalid vehicles  I have never come across a concrete reason as to why the ministry persisted with them, but I would not be surprised if it was simply an economics of scale thing

keep in mind of course, they where fleet vehicles, a fleet some 20,000 vehicles large! and when your registering vehicles in batches of 100 (Invacar) or 200 (AC) thats 200 or 400 number plates! and I imagine the small cost difference between a retroreflective plate and a black plate soon added up!

although its worth noting that, evidence suggests, even Fred Miller rebuilt Tippen Delta's also had white/silver on black numbers into the early 1970's despite the fact those where produced in relatively small numbers, so I do wonder if the requirement of white/silver on black plates was written into supply contracts?

 

 

 

[Christine]

Nice looking chick eh ? She'll be well into her seventies now . 

[chadders]

3 minutes ago, Christine said:

Nice looking chick eh ? She'll be well into her seventies now . 

That's what I thought as well, no visible tattoos, nose rings or similar detritus.

[Christine]

Old as you Chadders

[chadders]

Mature old boy, mature.

[Spottedlaurel]

21 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

I dont have a list of Approved repairers, but I probably should put something together, granted I know someone who might already have such a list so ill consult with them first  

however its worth noting it may of all been a scrap yard or other such storage/disposal yard, in the late 1970's and early 1980's is when the bulk of Villiers machines where withdrawn so they could be found quite literally pilled high in quite a few places awaiting their untimely demise

I'd be interested to see if anything can be worked out from that list.

I suppose I should have been more specific to say that it was Model 70s that I remember seeing there (but back then I might not have appreciated the difference, and maybe there were also some other/older types too).

I don't recall that place being a scrapyard, whilst it's not in the smartest area of town it would have been an unusual place for a breakers to operate. The fact that it's on the edge of a big Council estate gives the buildings a Ministry/Local Authority vibe.

[alcyonecorporation]

15 hours ago, eifion said:

Just spotted this picture on the Manchester Evening News site. Is it one you're aware of?

Excellent. Tidy. Well-maintained. 






 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ATCNBE

[RoverFolkUs]

Don't ask how I stumbled across it... But a weird DVLA vagary.. WTF!? I'm sure you're the best person to ask if there's an explanation for it!

 

[LightBulbFun]

2 hours ago, RoverFolkUs said:

Don't ask how I stumbled across it... But a weird DVLA vagary.. WTF!? I'm sure you're the best person to ask if there's an explanation for it!

 

yeah thats a pretty impressive find  ,  that would be a DVSA side fuck-up rather then a DVLA one, however the DVSA's system for HGV's and PSV's has always been pretty shonky but that is quite bad LOL

doing a bit of quick DVSA bashing, P273FPK P274FPK P278FPK P290FPK are also all bugged in the same manner LOL

 

not that the DVLA are immune either, a few years back while bashing the DVLA for Invacar blocks, I came across this record

this was really great for completely fucking up 3rd party look up sites, you know ones that would tell you in days/months how much tax you had left? yeah pretty much every single one would shit the bed in some form or another because obviously none of them where coded/setup to handle a tax remaining value greater then a singular year, let alone 57 years LOL

sadly eventually the DVLA did fix this record.

[AdgeCutler]

A Christmas present for Brian.

[djoptix]

On 14/12/2023 at 06:31, Mr Pastry said:

Your local branch of REMAP could probably help you with ramps etc.  If you don't know them, they are a charity run basically by retired engineers, who make and modify equipment for the disabled.  They might even be willing to do a bit of Invacar maintenance, you never know. 

I did a gig for REMAP once. They're brilliant.

[egg]

1 hour ago, AdgeCutler said:

A Christmas present for Brian.

exciting, where did you dig those up from?

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, AdgeCutler said:

A Christmas present for Brian.

very Awesome find, you really dont find original plastic ones anymore let alone NOS! and Brian suitably Autoshite Spec means you will have one spare which is no bad thing