invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[DVee8]

On 21/08/2022 at 23:37, warren t claim said:

That looks like Sunderland town centre, circa 78-80 now the Bridges shopping centre. The build on the right is the train station.

[Mrcento]

Almost certain you'll have seen this one before, But spotted this in old pics of my local area

[martc]

20 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

right on cue  

first up is the fuel gauge, which notably has "AC" on the bottom, dont know if thats a maker or to say "this is for AC Cars"

 

AC is the gauges' manufacturer - as in AC-Delco. AC/ AC-Delco equipment is often found in Vauxhalls as they are a division of GM. But AC equipment was also offered to other manufacturers and I'm sure I've seen AC gauges sold as accessories from the likes of Halfrauds back in the day. If I worked for AC cars I would be specifying AC gauges for the free branding! Perhaps they'd run out of Smiths instruments (plenty of strikes/shortages in those days unlike the halcyon times we're living in).

AC-Delco are still with us, but appear to have nothing to do with Europe now-a-days probably because GM's European divisions are now part of Selantis https://www.acdelco.com/

Here's a Viva HA speedo - note the same AC logo-

And here's one from a Cortina - selling to the opposition!

[egg]

3 hours ago, martc said:

But AC equipment was also offered to other manufacturers

I have a memory of my motor factor dad selling AC Delco brake shoes/pads in red boxes in the 80's/90's, but my memory ain't so accurate these days!

[Zelandeth]

Yeah, that car seems an odd collection of bits, many of which don't seem to belong to each other.

The VIN plate showed a 1977 build date - but wouldn't that make it a Mark B car, so should have the additional chassis bracing, larger speedometer etc?  None of that was visible, and the engine clearly had the earlier style of oil filter housing, so absolutely wouldn't be correct for a 1977 car - as I recall even TPA's original engine had a spin on oil filter, and that's from 1973.  It also looks to be on 12" wheels - though that means absolutely nothing given how easy it is to swap a set of wheels over - though given the availability of cheap 10" tyres compared to 12" ones it would seem odd to have changed things that way.

That speedometer looks to me to be considerably older than the car - so I find myself wondering if someone has just used what they had to hand to fill the holes in the dash.  Whether recently or at some point possibly decades ago is another question entirely.  The fuel gauge as others have said is an off-the-shelf AC-Delco part, nothing to do with AC the car maker.

The amount of wear on the wiper/lighting switches definitely suggests that the car has at least some reasonable number of miles on it.

It just strikes me as being a car that's made up out of 30 years worth of mismatched spare parts.  Not necessarily a bad little car nevertheless, but it's definitely not a museum quality, showroom fresh one.

[LightBulbFun]

44 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

It just strikes me as being a car that's made up out of 30 years worth of mismatched spare parts.  Not necessarily a bad little car nevertheless, but it's definitely not a museum quality, showroom fresh one.

yeah from what I can tell its exactly that! 

it exited Ministry service under its original ID in 1986 

obviously unlike User car or a private car, they could not just take it to an Approved repair shop as the Ministry would probably have confiscated it back!

so I imagine someones just kept it going with whatever bits they had on hand  much like when you see a Routemaster or such thats been abroad for 30-40 years and have had to make do with no parts support

44 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

The VIN plate showed a 1977 build date - but wouldn't that make it a Mark B car, so should have the additional chassis bracing, larger speedometer etc?  None of that was visible, and the engine clearly had the earlier style of oil filter housing, so absolutely wouldn't be correct for a 1977 car

indeed its a 1973 AC Model 70, on the wrong ID, but I was able to sort that out  (the seller did eventually update the listing, but only the last day and, and I wish he would not of plastered the registration mark into the listing until he actually had the correct V5 in hand but hey ho!)

44 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

as I recall even TPA's original engine had a spin on oil filter, and that's from 1973. 

TPAs "original" engine (the one thats now in @dollywobbler's TWC) is a Late 1976 Engine, less then 20 engine numbers away from @Mrs6C's Model 70 in-fact!

so TPA is actually on her 3rd engine!

I still wonder what they did to blow up the original engine in less then 10K! and I do still wonder if it has anything to do with why TWC is relatively slow going for a Model 70, perhaps whatever did the original engine in, had also started to do in the replacement engine?

I think TPA's original engine would of been of the cartridge filter type, but research is still on going there

[LightBulbFun]

On 22/08/2022 at 20:44, 500tops said:

Someone got a 'bargain'...

 

turns out no one got a bargain LOL

just got word from the seller that he has decided to hang onto it for now, take it to a few car shows and then maybe flog it

im not sure if he got cold feet from the whole identity crisis ordeal or if he has just warmed up to it decided to hang onto it for now  

so I guess we will never know if someone was actually prepared to pay £7.6K for a Model 70 that someone cut holes into LOL

[egg]

It would be interesting to know the percentage of pre, say 1990 cars, that 'sell' on eBay but actually result in a V5 transfer!

[Remspoor]

Found on Twatter. Spot the mistake.

 

[LightBulbFun]

heres a most curious one I have been monitoring for the past month and figured was finally time to post about

in that somethings afoot with PPC150! I noticed earlier this month that it was suddenly taxed which caught my eye as  for as long I have known it im pretty sure its been in the not licensed taxation class "not taxed for on road use"

so I was thinking thats strange, I wonder if someone gone and done a taxation class change? and indeed low and behold just couple days ago a fresh V5 has been issued!

going by how its gone from taxed FIRST and then NEW V5 issued, that to me looks a lot like when someone is changing the taxation class of a vehicle at a post office (ie PLG to Historic), thats why I think its suddenly gone through a taxation class change but not a keeper change

because if there was a keeper change taking place, it would not be taxed first, you would have fresh V5 and then Tax

and thus I do wonder whats going on here, as PPC150 a Electric Stanley Argson is one the many invalid vehicles the Combe Martin motorcycle museum had, but I know that museum either closed or had a big sell off many years ago and many of the invalid vehicles from the collection where dispersed and have not surfaced since (with PPC150 being one of those "never seen again since" vehicles AFAIK)

and PPC150 interestingly, its so far never had a keeper change since it was registered with the DVLA in July 1980,

so I really wonder whats going on here, has Combe Martin had it since 1980 and still have it somewhere? and they have "just" finally decided to tax it? and have no need to do a keeper change since it still would be registered to them?

its an odd one alright! ill be keeping an eye on the record in the coming days/weeks of course incase anything else changes

 

I almost wonder if someones done something daft like got PPC150 as barn find with its original 1980 V5 and then just done a historic taxation class change at the post office, completely unaware that the modern V5 will be sent to whoever it was registered to 40 years ago?!

I really hope thats not the case, but I can very much see something like that happen LOL

[LightBulbFun]

well this is a bit distressing

https://www.burnhamandhighbridgeweeklynews.co.uk/news/somersetnews/20760015.museum-hammond-microcars-charterhouse-auction/?fbclid=IwAR2uBACcDnCMiIS7NREft27fJP6wRDdDGqemMTu0m54eZz8BtIoUalKnAjE

does anyone know why its being sold? it was thanks to @egg's genuinely brilliant idea to hold an Autoshite gathering there and Jean Hammond taking my contact details that directly lead me to getting REV!

so I obviously care a great deal about the place and Jean! so yeah I am quite concerned to see the above!

 

and as an aside they have an Model 57 AC Acedes Mk11 LPD806D, one of the few officially released by the Ministry into museum hands, and obviously I dont want that to vanish as has happened to far too many invalid vehicles over time (see for example the Combe Martin cars above!)

[Zelandeth]

Failing health requiring Jean to move into a care home according to the article.  

[LightBulbFun]

11 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Failing health requiring Jean to move into a care home according to the article.  

Thanks for pointing that out! somehow i completely missed that in the first 5 times I read through the article trying to figure out what is going on!

im relieved to hear she is still alive! but sorry to hear about the declining health! and its sad that the collection is suddenly being sold off like this! (especially in such an uncontrolled manner, just punting it to auction...)

 

I almost wondering whats involved in bidding in an Auction, so I can at least ensure that the Acedes and handful of Model 70 spares they have kicking around can be secured 

but I dont have the storage facilities to do that sadly, and I have no idea what the Acedes will end up going for!

[egg]

That's sad to hear, they did cancel this year's open day, and the RUMcar forum closed in March. Makes me glad quite a few of us managed to see the collection fully intact.

They also had an AC Petite of course. I think they have/had a 1961 Harding too?

Some of the vehicles are going to sell for a lot - they have a Peel P50 and a Trident don't they?

I'd love to buy the 356CC Daihatsu, but I'm sure it's well beyond my pay grade.

 

[LightBulbFun]

2 hours ago, egg said:

That's sad to hear, they did cancel this year's open day, and the RUMcar forum closed in March. Makes me glad quite a few of us managed to see the collection fully intact.

They also had an AC Petite of course. I think they have/had a 1961 Harding too?

Some of the vehicles are going to sell for a lot - they have a Peel P50 and a Trident don't they?

I'd love to buy the 356CC Daihatsu, but I'm sure it's well beyond my pay grade.

 

did not realise the RUMCar forum also closed, thats sad! I had been intending to register REV with RUMCar register when she was properly back on the road

indeed they have an AC Petite   but no harding

they used to have 163CLD a 1961 Harding Deluxe B which is known as the Hammond harding because of this and is I imagine is what your thinking of? but it was acquired by Stuart some years back who just finished restoring earlier this year in fact  

https://www.facebook.com/groups/950689934973969/posts/5119387688104152

and yeah the cynical side of me has to wonder if the reason for the sale of the collection has something to do with the high values of the Peels...

 

but as you say in better times I am really pleased and thankful I had a chance to see the collection in person, heres a link to the thread for the visit, I still remember it well!  

https://autoshite.com/topic/34628-hammond-microcar-collection-annual-open-day-this-sunday-28th/

reading back got me thinking @Mrs6C I know your a fan of Lawrie Bond designed/made things, thus I was thinking, the Opperman Sterling would make an excellent  addition to your collection, especially as it uses a 493cc Steyr puch engine which im sure your more then familiar with by now  

and maybe you can nab the Acedes while your at it to give XWC468F a Villiers friend?  #foreverhopeful

[egg]

I'll certainly make a note to see the auction catalogue. I feel this sale will inevitably draw some large prices from (a) hardcore collectors (b) speculators, however.

Thanks, I forgot Stuart had that Harding.

[greengartside]

One for the list. Have we had this one yet? Somewhere up in Miseryside in the late ‘70’s.

[LightBulbFun]

26 minutes ago, greengartside said:

One for the list. Have we had this one yet? Somewhere up in Miseryside in the late ‘70’s.

 not a picture I have seen before no  but I am aware of the UPF-M block, in fact UPF528M a close relative of UPF516M one of the Ex Barry/Haflinger Technik rolling chassis  

its amusing and interesting how they have the wing mirror turned the wrong way! (I wonder that was done on purpose for a specific reason or if it got bumped round)

its a good shot but I wonder is it a crop from a larger photo? Invalid vehicles often got photographed accidentally by bus spotters (even one of @busmansholiday's own photos contains an AC Acedes Mk15 in it )

but they where rarely photographed on their own, and I can see a bus peaking into shot and they way it looks quite zoomed in makes me wonder if its from a larger, bus spotters photo  

which as both a bus and Invacar enthusiast, I love   and theres quite a few id love to recreate with REV, like this shot for example would be fun to recreate  

[High Jetter]

TEV is a new one? Not seen it b4.

[LightBulbFun]

26 minutes ago, High Jetter said:

TEV is a new one? Not seen it b4.

first showed up all the way back on page 50  

https://autoshite.com/topic/32723-lightbulbfuns-invacar-general-ramble-thread-index-on-page-1-survivors-lists-on-pages-24134-adgecutlers-invacar-mk12-restoration-from-page-186-onwards-chips-got/page/50/?tab=comments#comment-1818355

then again on Page 141  

https://autoshite.com/topic/32723-lightbulbfuns-invacar-general-ramble-thread-index-on-page-1-survivors-lists-on-pages-24134-adgecutlers-invacar-mk12-restoration-from-page-186-onwards-chips-got/page/141/?tab=comments#comment-2074567

since Page 50, I have uncovered every singe Model 70 registration block there is, which is how I am able to say exactly how many Ministry Model 70's where produced  (18150 if your curious, thats including the 20 user trial cars which AC counted as prototypes, but the ministry counted them as regular ministry cars)

but obviously while I have every Model 70 Ministry registration block discovered and recorded down, I obviously dont have pictures of every individual car! so its still exciting when someone posts a picture I have not seen before

as even tho theres 99.9%* chance ill know the block already thus the photo is unlikely to produce any new research material, it is unlikely ill have seen the specific car pictured before, and its always good to see another invalid vehicle pictured  

*the 0.1% chance is if someone finds a picture a NI Model 70 which never made it to computerisation in 1986, or a Private Model 70 (as private AC's where always registered outside of blocks)

then that will be new to me and a very exciting find! but so far i dont think this has happened 

 

[High Jetter]

Sorry, must pay more attention. Seriously tho, so glad you're on track for these beauties.

[LightBulbFun]

  

8 hours ago, Remspoor said:

You give links to road signs. Again they do not prove anything. The B&W is form the Preston Bypass. This is very old and out of date sign.

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php/Anderson_report

The colour one is from a fictional motorway, again it does not prove anything.

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/secret-motorway-just-m5-youve-21165643

The highway code is very vague too.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/motorways-253-to-273
 

I wonder what is is covered by certain slow-moving vehicles? How slow is slow. There is no min speed limit.

Cars like that French one are in the same class as say the new Ami.

 

 

 

you have just opened up a very interesting can of worms that has been quite fun for me at least to try and pick through  

 

I was originally going to say that

all the signs posted so far by @UltraWomble are still accurate (even the one in Km pinched from Ireland is more or less correct)

Motorway regulations in terms of prohibited vehicles has not changed since the inception of motorway regulations

and some non-motorway special roads have motorway type vehicle restrictions in place, this one such I passed regularly during my time learning to drive in 2019-2021  (the cattle grid would shit me up so many times at first LOL)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_road

and thus such the Citroen Ami is an AM class vehicle same as a Moped and thus is banned from motorways

 

 

HOWEVER, actually looking into it really deeply, like actually reading the rules and regulations cited in the highway code has painted a bit of a different picture

the signs that @UltraWomble posted are still very much relevant if you dont see them much anymore (I think there are still a few dotted about the motorway network)

 

but that amusingly looking at the rules and regulations I see nothing to actually prohibit someone taking a Citroen Ami on a motorway

if you look at the rules and regulations referenced in the highway code

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/motorways-253-to-273

a Motorway is just a special purpose road

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66/part/II/crossheading/special-roads

and if you look at what vehicle restrictions from the special purpose road act, are placed on motorways its only class 1 and class 2 restrictions

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1982/1163/regulation/4/made

and if we look at what Class 1 and Class 2 restrictions are

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66/schedule/4

we can see that the Citroen Ami meets these restrictions  it can do 25Mph on the flat, (thats your definition of slow moving vehicle/your motorway minimum speed limit BTW)

and its more than 4Kw (although I cant see where a minimum power output is actually specified in the actual regulations? just that it must not be less then 50cc) 

 

peoples thoughts on this would be interesting to hear  

 

not that I would advise taking a Citroen Ami  on the Motorway, but its interesting to get down to the bones of it and figure out exactly whats what!

 

its also interesting to note that

Citroen themselves state you can drive an Ami on an AM licence

however even without the battery the Citroen Ami weighs 425Kg putting it over the AM weight limit

so I am curious whats going on here! @Kiltox I am curious if you might have any thoughts on this, since I know your quite involved with the Ami

 

[Noel Tidybeard]

i think powered mobility scooter covers an ami doesn't it?! 🤣

[LightBulbFun]

in Model 70 news, Adam has been prepping his lot for their first run out in over a year! its been far too long I say so im very pleased to see Adam has got his Mojo back  

and he is taking them to the National microcar rally which will be quite exciting to see! 

https://www.national-microcar-rally.co.uk/

 

he also shared with me some videos of them running, and I noticed in GTW614N it has a heater control box of a style I have never seen before!

never seen one of the rounded ones in body colour before, only ever in black, so its very interesting to see thats 4 different styles of floor mounted heater/choke control boxes I have seen now, just need to try and figure out their order!

the other 2/3 styles can been seen here bellow 

On 21/05/2022 at 14:10, LightBulbFun said:

he also grabbed a picture of the heating and choke controls which is a very interesting thing for me, because its a blue metal box! but its a late Machine!

curiously SPE351R another even later AC Model 70 has the same metal box controls, and its very interesting to me because I always thought the blue metal box type, was an earlier type fitted to earlier Mk B's Pre Rollover bar

and I thought maybe SPE351R just ended up with an earlier control box somehow

see most post rollover bar Model 70's I have seen have with floor mounted control box, have a plastic control box, as seen on REV here

but seeing that the Pembrokeshire car has the same blue control box as SPE351R is interesting!

so I now have to figure out whats going on here with the metal blue box controls! was perhaps the plastic control box a post production replacement part (like the britax rear lights)

or is this another production difference between AC and Invacar Model 70's? of note the spare parts list only differentiates between Mk A's (with their roof mounted controls) and Mark B's with their floor mounted controls

so if there was a difference between Early Mk B's and later Mk B's then it was consolidated by the mid 1980's its also worth noting that there was also a black version of the metal box controls, but im not sure I have actually seen those fitted to machines, just that they exist in various parts stashes!

 

 

 

and in Mk12 news I found out the guy who bought NPU156J from Big Al managed to get it DVLA live once more and a logbook for it! sadly the chap who owns, is the same from the instagram photos wanting to drop the body onto the running gear of a smart car! 

so I am desperately trying to convince him otherwise! since a properly registered Invacar Mk12E is far too rare for something like to happen to it!

but I am pleased to see another one of the Oddingley cars DVLA live once more! thats 2 down 3 more to go!   

[martc]

On 8/29/2022 at 2:56 AM, LightBulbFun said:

  peoples thoughts on this would be interesting to hear  

not that I would advise taking a Citroen Ami  on the Motorway, but its interesting to get down to the bones of it and figure out exactly whats what!

its also interesting to note that

Citroen themselves state you can drive an Ami on an AM licence

Can't add any comments about the weight variations but... have you noticed the correct and incorrect spelling of licence in the screenshot? It's all in the details and first impressions really do count .... grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. At least they are using the correct term of 'driving' rather than the incorrect 'drivers' licence. 

[barrett]

I'm not sure about all the road restrictions and whatnot, but this sign has been here for as long as I can remember, on a stretch of the A27 (not a motorway) before a tunnel and then a bridge section. I always assumed it was because of the possible strong winds over the bridge section was likely to blow an invalid carriage over... (I may have posted this before)

Re: the Hammond sale - lots of the cars on display are privately owned and 'on loan' to the museum, so it's not a given that any ICs will actually be offered for sale. I'll be going to the viewing I expect as there are a couple of things I'd like to have a bid on but it's the day before the sale so I expect the catalogue will have been published by then (although with this particular auctioneer that's also not a given...)

 

[LightBulbFun]

39 minutes ago, barrett said:

I'm not sure about all the road restrictions and whatnot, but this sign has been here for as long as I can remember, on a stretch of the A27 (not a motorway) before a tunnel and then a bridge section. I always assumed it was because of the possible strong winds over the bridge section was likely to blow an invalid carriage over... (I may have posted this before)

that will be because its a special purpose road  and just has Class 1 and Class 2 restrictions put in place I doubt that was done just for IC's, and as mentioned it only applies to Actual Invalid carriages like your Invacar Mk8, not a Mk12 or a Model 70, (which is ironic, because if it is because of wind a Mk12 would be much more susceptible to it then a Mk8!)

https://pathetic.org.uk/features/special_roads/

39 minutes ago, barrett said:

Re: the Hammond sale - lots of the cars on display are privately owned and 'on loan' to the museum, so it's not a given that any ICs will actually be offered for sale. I'll be going to the viewing I expect as there are a couple of things I'd like to have a bid on but it's the day before the sale so I expect the catalogue will have been published by then (although with this particular auctioneer that's also not a given...)

interesting that sounds a lot like the bubble car museum which I heard also had/has a lot of cars on loan

I always thought the Hammond collection was their own?

LPD806D however I know is owned by the Hammonds, it was given to them officially by Ministry thanks to work by Julian back in the day

do let me know if you get word on the catalog going live etc! 

 

if anyone is planning on going for LPD806D and the Model 70 parts, please do let me know! so I know whats happening! and also so I know that they have been spoken for and I dont accidentally get people bidding against each other!

[mitsisigma01]

54 minutes ago, barrett said:

before a tunnel and then a bridge section

I think the restrictions are only for the tunnel, when you re-enter from Holmbush I don't think there is a restricted sign there so you can get blown off the Shoreham flyover or if you drive like a cock you can spin out and over the barriers for a quicker route down to ground level 

[egg]

6 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

do let me know if you get word on the catalog going live etc! 

I'll also be on the look out for it. There might be some cheaper* items like a Sinclair C5.

[LightBulbFun]

On 30/08/2022 at 22:02, LightBulbFun said:

in Model 70 news, Adam has been prepping his lot for their first run out in over a year! its been far too long I say so im very pleased to see Adam has got his Mojo back  

and he is taking them to the National microcar rally which will be quite exciting to see! 

https://www.national-microcar-rally.co.uk/

 

he also shared with me some videos of them running, and I noticed in GTW614N it has a heater control box of a style I have never seen before!

never seen one of the rounded ones in body colour before, only ever in black, so its very interesting to see thats 4 different styles of floor mounted heater/choke control boxes I have seen now, just need to try and figure out their order!

the other 2/3 styles can been seen here bellow 

On 21/05/2022 at 14:10, LightBulbFun said:

he also grabbed a picture of the heating and choke controls which is a very interesting thing for me, because its a blue metal box! but its a late Machine!

curiously SPE351R another even later AC Model 70 has the same metal box controls, and its very interesting to me because I always thought the blue metal box type, was an earlier type fitted to earlier Mk B's Pre Rollover bar

and I thought maybe SPE351R just ended up with an earlier control box somehow

see most post rollover bar Model 70's I have seen have with floor mounted control box, have a plastic control box, as seen on REV here

but seeing that the Pembrokeshire car has the same blue control box as SPE351R is interesting!

so I now have to figure out whats going on here with the metal blue box controls! was perhaps the plastic control box a post production replacement part (like the britax rear lights)

or is this another production difference between AC and Invacar Model 70's? of note the spare parts list only differentiates between Mk A's (with their roof mounted controls) and Mark B's with their floor mounted controls

so if there was a difference between Early Mk B's and later Mk B's then it was consolidated by the mid 1980's its also worth noting that there was also a black version of the metal box controls, but im not sure I have actually seen those fitted to machines, just that they exist in various parts stashes!

 

Expand  

 

 

twilight petrol station shots FTW  I wonder what his other drivers make of them!

also quite excitingly the chap who owns MPH759P (the very first Model 70 I "sorted out") has been giving her spruce up and repaint! no longer a motley collection of brushed on brown, black, and fibreglass damage!

this is makes me very pleased to see indeed! as for a long time this Model 70 was treated somewhat recklessly and I was quite worried for it, so I am pleased to see she is getting the love she deserves  

and in generally its nice to see it going back to blue