invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[barrett]

15 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

(its also a shame they got the "vehicle make" bit wrong, a lot of the time for some reason on vehicles registered by an individual, they put the Model info in with the vehicle make, so for example if you search for "INVACAR" you wont find REV731 because as far as the DVLA is concerned the make is "INVACAR 19DL2" not INVACAR LOL, but 19DL2 is actually the model number!, I see this quite a lot sadly, I suspect its from people not quite knowing how to fill out a V55)

It's a DVLA cock-up. The monkeys they employ are incapable of basic data entry, so no matter how accurately a form is filled in you can almost guarantee it will be transposed inaccurately when the V5C is issued. I owned a Make: PANHARD DYNAZ 1 (sic) or something like that, and a Make: PANHARD DYNAX, and I know that's not what the V55/5 forms said! The 'model' section is almost always ignored, or added to the 'Make' field. Idiots.

[LightBulbFun]

32 minutes ago, barrett said:

It's a DVLA cock-up. The monkeys they employ are incapable of basic data entry, so no matter how accurately a form is filled in you can almost guarantee it will be transposed inaccurately when the V5C is issued. I owned a Make: PANHARD DYNAZ 1 (sic) or something like that, and a Make: PANHARD DYNAX, and I know that's not what the V55/5 forms said! The 'model' section is almost always ignored, or added to the 'Make' field. Idiots.

yeah! I had wondered if that may have been the case as well! cuz as well proven here the DVLA themselves are no better LOL

 

its worth noting on the V55/5 these days theres 3 fields

"Manufacture" "Make" and "Model" and I have to wonder what corresponds to what exactly... im guessing Manufacture would be something like BMC, Make would be AUSTIN and Model would be 1300, but I do wonder how the DVLA interprets that!

as the V55/5 has fields for manufacture, make and model, but a V5 only has Make and model so go figure how that one works!

so if I was filling a V55/5 out out id just put the manufacture info in and leave make/Model blank, that way theres no way any sort of cock up can occur (well aside from straight up typos LOL)

and when it comes to invalid vehicles the model info was never recorded on the Logbook's anyway  

as in the way V5's used to be formatted, they would have been recorded as make: INVACAR model/type 3-WHEEL INVALID VEHICLE

as seen here on REV's 2001 V5 

but at some point things where reformatted and wheel plan and body type where given their own fields

so REV's V5 now looks like this

 

 

 

the other one I wonder is how do you change the "make" info if you say have a vehicle where theres a typo in the make, as theres no field in the V5 to do so....

 

[somewhatfoolish]

46 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

and then production moved to a purpose built building, and I think its that building that caught fire a couple times, but the whole fire thing is something im still researching, I still dont actually know when It happened, and weather or not this is why/if the mould lines changed, what I really need is some detailed photos of an all original early Invacar Model 70, but thats easier said then done!

and weirdly looking at all the Invacar Model 70's ever made, production does not look to have been effected by it, it all rolls smoothly from one month to the next, you would think if the production line burnt down, there would suddenly be a gap while they got things back up and running

but again I dont know the exact date of the fire, if I did then I could more closely look at the blocks from that time and see if I can spot anything

perhaps the fire never damaged the production line, with only other parts of the building being damaged by it?

supposedly a temporary production line was setup in the original building for a month or 2 but again details are scant 

I would speculate that it would have been the body shop/grp laminating area that 'went on fire'; laminating shops are filled with exciting chemicals which if mixed inappropriately are capable of spontaneous combustion, never mind the solvents, rags saturated in assorted flammable liquids, and a pre-HASAWA workplace filled with chaps in brown dust coats who all smoke like chimneys.

[LightBulbFun]

11 minutes ago, somewhatfoolish said:

I would speculate that it would have been the body shop/grp laminating area that 'went on fire'; laminating shops are filled with exciting chemicals which if mixed inappropriately are capable of spontaneous combustion, never mind the solvents, rags saturated in assorted flammable liquids, and a pre-HASAWA workplace filled with chaps in brown dust coats who all smoke like chimneys.

ah as for what caught/caused the  fire, supposedly the first time it was rodents chewing through some electrical cables in a room full of paperwork and the 2nd time was a faulty heater left on over the weekend (although its not said what that set on fire, so perhaps your onto something there!)

heres a quote, from the Virtual gaz website which has several fun and interesting stores in it  http://www.virtualgaz.com/invacarpage.htm

Quote

The demise of the troubled company began when Bert Greeves finally decided to retire completely withdrawing his shares from the firm which presumably the lions share was, so to speak, leaving the remaining shareholders floundering. A couple of fires erupted at different times causing damage, one being discovered one Saturday morning during working hours took place in an upstairs storeroom that contained various filing cabinets and paperwork, this was fought by myself and one or two others using extinguishers but the fire had got too good a hold and blew part of the asbestos roofing off in the heat before the fire brigade arrived to quench the flames. Those of us involved were thanked by the directors personally and received a small financial reward as a mark of their appreciation for our involvement in fighting the fire, which had we left it and waited solely for the fire brigade to arrive, could have been a lot more damaging than it turned out to be finally, it was concluded that rodents chewed through a power cable in the room causing bare wiring that eventually sparked setting fire to paperwork in the room. A short while after re-joining the company and working on the Invacars I requested and got permission to use a car to and from home during a road test and continued this practice throughout the remainder of my employment there, I must have been one of a few privileged folk in the country to always arrive to and from work in a different brand new vehicle each and every working day, numerous times the police stopped many of the testers either whilst testing these cars or the motorcycle testers and tried to find reasons as to why we were flouting the law by misuse of trade plate usage but due to their doubts as to these actual laws governing this rule, they seldom followed any enquiries up and we invariably heard no more, so continued with these practises throughout. After Bert retired and left the company in disarray financial wise, a replacement shareholder needed to be found to re-inject sufficient finances back into the company to ensure survival and this came in the shape of a fellow named Gilroy, not sure if he bought the company outright or if he simply became the major shareholder, but he appeared to take the reins and appeared to be the driving force and the main controller. He made many alterations and cutbacks to rescue the failing company profits and amongst these were the abolishment of the daily restaurant bills accrued by all the directors for many a year as they dined locally each and every day all at the company’s expense. A decision i don’t think many of them favoured but little or no protest was lodged when they found out their gravy train had ground to a halt for all time. I cannot recall if just prior or after Gilroy joined the company a second and more devastating fire destroyed a major part of the main factory building and offices, it was discovered the fire originated within the main stores due to a faulty heater being accidentally left on after everyone went home for the weekend one Saturday afternoon , I personally have my own doubts about both these fires but as both times no foul play was suspected or found maybe my suspicions are somewhat unfounded on this matter.

 

[Borsuq]

So, did you manage to book your test in the end, LBF?

I'm pretty fresh to the forum, so I'm now having to slowly read this entire thread from the beginning (80 odd pages still to go, oof) to catch up on all the happenings. Your passion for those things is infectious.

Really glad you managed to get your Invacar in the end, and a movie star one at that. 

[LightBulbFun]

5 minutes ago, Borsuq said:

So, did you manage to book your test in the end, LBF?

funny you should mention that as I just managed to book my test now  

sadly the preferred test centre has no slots available at all, so its been put on hold but at least I have my foot in the door so to speak and I have re-activated that driving test cancelations thing I signed up to to grab anyones slots should they cancel their test for whatever reason

9 minutes ago, Borsuq said:

I'm pretty fresh to the forum, so I'm now having to slowly read this entire thread from the beginning (80 odd pages still to go, oof) to catch up on all the happenings. Your passion for those things is infectious.

Really glad you managed to get your Invacar in the end, and a movie star one at that. 

Props to you for reading through the entire thread! it is quite unwieldy for those who have not been here since its start, and I have wondered if anyone has read it from start to current!

happy to hear you have been enjoying it  im glad its still providing a good read for people still, even tho I suspect I have "scared" off most forum readers by now LOL

[LightBulbFun]

had lesson 50 today  (the last for now until I know when my next test is due)

I was a bit worried at first due to my back, (and contemplated postponing it, but I felt that it would have been a bit short notice) but it actually went well, better then previous lessons, clearly all that driving at the FoD has done nicely to boost my confidence and speed at which I do things  

I had wondered if my instructor would notice or is it was just in my head, but indeed at the end of the lesson he mentioned that I did very well this lesson better then before  so I mentioned before leaving that yeah I managed to get/have a fun weekend away somewhere where I got a chance to drive a bunch of different cars  

[LightBulbFun]

so been thinking about the last major thing that needs sorting on REV and that is her brakes

following discussions at the last FoD I think the best course of action given how simple but also safety critical the brakes are, is to just overhaul everything with new components, rather then faff about trying to repair/reuse whats already there and deal with stuck unions and sized bleed nipples etc

 

so I figured it worth be worth doing a check to make sure I have everything  on hand to do so and if theres anything I have missed out

so I know in the parts stash I currently have:

a couple new master cylinders

a few new slave cylinders

plenty of kunifer brake pipe

a few sets of new break shoes 

and some new flexies, (but im not sure if they are for the front or rear sadly)

and @Zelandeth mentioned he has a whole bunch of unions etc still from when he did TPA up

so I think I have everything "in stock" (and in sufficient quantities) to overhaul REV's brakes (only thing I dont have on hand is brake fluid, but thats exactly hard to come by so not worried about that)

 

if theres anything I missed or if anyone has anything they think is worth mentioning do let me know  

 

as a side note in the spares stash we got from Julian recently, there was 3 driving (No 1) pulleys and 2 driven (No 2) pulleys, so im thinking of fitting the best looking pair, to REV, since iv seen twice now (with TWC and TPA) what a PITA bad pulleys can be and given once she is home my limited work ability that I think its best to just replace the pulleys with known good ones and a fresh belt so im not risking getting stuck at home with bad pulleys, and REV's old pulleys can always be re-used in Dolly or Model 70's if it turns out they are still fine

(I think its hard to gauge an unknown pulley set without a high speed road run and I dont think I will be able to do that until she is brought home hence wanting to replace the pulley's and belt with a known good set)

[bobdisk]

@LightBulbFun , Do you have a pipe flaring tool, and a pipe bender ?  If you have to get one, dont get a cheap nasty one. I am about to start replacing rot rear pipes on my BMW E46, so I got a decent flaring tool, (mine is similar, but for DIN spec, as its a beemer) and a bender. I would think your pipe should be 3/16 inch diameter.

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/draper-23312-expert-316-sae-hand-held-brake/

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/laser-6829-brake-pipe-bender/

Its not cheap, but does a good job. Practice first on a length of scrap pipe.

 

[LightBulbFun]

23 minutes ago, bobdisk said:

@LightBulbFun , Do you have a pipe flaring tool, and a pipe bender ?  If you have to get one, dont get a cheap nasty one. I am about to start replacing rot rear pipes on my BMW E46, so I got a decent flaring tool, (mine is similar, but for DIN spec, as its a beemer) and a bender. I would think your pipe should be 3/16 inch diameter.

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/draper-23312-expert-316-sae-hand-held-brake/

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/laser-6829-brake-pipe-bender/

Its not cheap, but does a good job. Practice first on a length of scrap pipe.

 

ah nah I dont, but I was planning on borrowing one from a fellow shitter or the such like, its not a tool im going to need often (I hope!) so I dont think theres any point in buying one for a hopefully one off job, if I can borrow one from a fellow shitter  

but I appreciate the links, and the video made for an interesting watch  

[bobdisk]

Same applies if you borrow one; get one like the one in the video the man likes. Its easy to use, but practice on scrap pipe first.

[LightBulbFun]

woop was not expecting this, at least not this quickly,  I logged in and grabbed one for the the 13th of October at 2:36PM, had hoped for something a bit earlier, but I had also feared id not be able to get another test in until something silly like December or early next year LOL, so ill take mid October! 

[LightBulbFun]

37 minutes ago, Wack said:

No idea whether £3600 is a bargain or extortion , I know it's £3600 more than I'd pay for it though 

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/332172597970342/

 

ohhh first time a Model 70 has come up for sale since I bought REV!

looks like its on ebay too https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174412584575

will have to contact the seller for details as its not one (knowingly) on the survivors list, I think its the same Model 70 that was pictured behind the Tippen Delta (HCK972N) that sold to Simon of the ICR a few months ago

 

18 minutes ago, wuvvum said:

I certainly don't think it's a bargain, especially for one which needs registering and (presumably) recommissioning.  If it were half the price I'd be half tempted.

as for price, sadly I would not be surprised if it sold for that, prices have gone a bit silly over the past few years which is why I was fighting tooth and nail to get mine as soon as possible as  I knew if I waited any longer I just would not be able to afford one 

 

[LightBulbFun]

I have messaged the seller hopefully ill hear back with some details  

 

checking the photos in the meantime shows it is defiantly the same location the Tippen Delta was sold from

 

 

and heres some photos from the current listing

 

 

going by the post production rear lights and fuel gauge, this one was probably in Ministry service until the mid 1990s at the earliest

and I can tell from the large speedo that its a Post March 1976 Model 70 Mark B 

[Eyersey1234]

@LightBulbFunhow much was REV? 

[somewhatfoolish]

It's in good running order but isn't MoTed nor registered for the road; he's a fucking monkey, that's what he is.

[Mrs6C]

39 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

@LightBulbFunhow much was REV? 

REV and Dolly came as a pair with the spares cache. The price paid though is really not for public consumption...

[Eyersey1234]

1 hour ago, Mrs6C said:

REV and Dolly came as a pair with the spares cache. The price paid though is really not for public consumption...

Fair enough, I just wondered how it compared to the Model 70 upthread

[wuvvum]

I had no idea Tippen Deltas were made as late as 1974.  Or has that one be re-registered?

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, wuvvum said:

I had no idea Tippen Deltas were made as late as 1974.  Or has that one be re-registered?

 get ready for a shock!  Tippen Delta's remained in "production" until the very end of the invalid vehicle scheme as the Model 70 had no electric variant and for the use cases where the Model 70 was not suitable 

(well it was thought "production" ended in 1976 until I discovered a few later ones through my chassis number research  sadly/curiously not come across any NI examples yet, the problem there is if they do exist I dont know if their chassis numbers where recorded in the same format as english examples, there is for example f 3 cars between WCW626R and FRN420S but I cant find those 3 cars so I do wonder!)

I say production in quotation marks however as all Tippen Delta's made after about March 1970 (with OVC89H being the last Frank Tippen and Sons Delta I can find) where Petrol machines rebuilt and refurbished into electric machines by Fred miller LTD after Frank Tippens and Sons downsized, with ATD567J being the earliest Fred miller conversion Tippen Delta I can find (number 25) and these converted/refurbished cars where registered as new vehicles 

 

(Frank Tippen and Sons however provided mechanical units to Fred millier so they could do the conversions and Frank Tippen and sons even made replacement Model 70 bits for the DHSS into the 1990s I have often wondered if you could make a Model 70 entirely out of Tippen bits and make a Tippen Delta Model 70 LOL, however it is sadly not known if they made fibre glass bits for the Model 70, but I digress)

this process of refurbishment and rebuilding meant that some newer registered  tippens where/looked older than then some older registered cars! take for example YTB768N

which is based on a Tippen Delta 6, compared to HCK972N which is based on a Tippen Delta 8

it also means and someone correct me if im wrong, but that Tippen Delta's where the first case of mass conversion of Petrol vehicles into electric vehicles!

 

if you want some more late registration/production madness there was at least 1 K reg AC Acedes Mk12, Model 57! (with AC Model 64's being produced/registried until April 1972! with LPA357K)

it would entirely theoretically be possible to have lined up next to each other a H Reg Model 70 next to a J Reg Model 67 next to a K Reg Model 57, now that would really mess with someones head/the historians LOL

[bobdisk]

13 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

ohhh first time a Model 70 has come up for sale since I bought REV!

looks like its on ebay too https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174412584575

£3300 is short of the "reserve" so it will fetch a lot more. "The "buy it now" is £4800, much too much, unfortunately. 

[LightBulbFun]

2 hours ago, bobdisk said:

£3300 is short of the "reserve" so it will fetch a lot more. "The "buy it now" is £4800, much too much, unfortunately. 

if the Facebook market place post is anything to go by I think the reserve is set to £3600, still quite strong especially if you dont know someone like me who can sort out any registration woes LOL but a lot more "reasonable" then £4800 LOL

(for £5K you can get a much a shiner Model 70 than that, £5K is how much ATW722L and JPA268N sold for)

[Mrs6C]

Wasn't @OliD-E looking to sell his pair of Model 70s or did I imagine that?

[LightBulbFun]

11 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

Wasn't @OliD-E looking to sell his pair of Model 70s or did I imagine that?

not sure what the exact status is currently (I can ask him on facebook which he frequents more than the forum, if anyone is interested still)

but a few weeks ago he did put out a feeler  

On 03/08/2020 at 20:01, LightBulbFun said:

just a heads up for @bobdisk  @somewhatfoolish  @Cavcraft @wuvvum and whoever else at some point expressed interest in wanting a Model 70 but has not yet found one (sorry if I have forgotten to tag you explicitly)

well looks like @OliD-E may be flogging his 2 https://www.facebook.com/groups/950689934973969/permalink/3189880944388179/

it would be nice to see them remain in the fold  he has informed me that he is best contacted via his email: [email protected]

 

[Zelandeth]

I think it really just goes to show that values for them are all over the shop.  It's nigh on impossible to put together an accurate pricing guide because they're something which seems to crop up infrequently enough and be of a niche enough vehicle to skew things massively.

There seems to be a lot more demand than supply at the moment so those asking top dollar prices are probably quite happy in the knowledge that so long as they're not in a hurry that they will probably find a buyer eventually who wants the car enough and has deep enough pockets.  Let's not forget that (somewhat ironically given why they were developed originally) that a lot of the "serious" microcar collectors are willing to pay what seem frankly ludicrous prices for things less rare and *far* less usable in the real world than Model 70s.  Peel P50 anyone?

My gut feeling is still that £1-2K is reasonable money for a complete car that needs recommissioning.  £3-5K for a really tidy example that's running, in regular use and has been properly registered etc.  I'm not an expert though, nor do I play one on TV (or even YouTube), that's just my thoughts based on what I'm aware of having seen sell.  LBF has probably been actively following the market closer than I have, so can probably make a more educated guess.

They *definitely* are on the up though, awareness both of their existence and that it's possible to actually drive them legally spreading more widely is seeing to that.  Plus they're a very approachable thing to have in the garage to work on as a leisure project for quiet Sunday afternoons.

[LightBulbFun]

22 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

I think it really just goes to show that values for them are all over the shop.  It's nigh on impossible to put together an accurate pricing guide because they're something which seems to crop up infrequently enough and be of a niche enough vehicle to skew things massively.

There seems to be a lot more demand than supply at the moment so those asking top dollar prices are probably quite happy in the knowledge that so long as they're not in a hurry that they will probably find a buyer eventually who wants the car enough and has deep enough pockets.  Let's not forget that (somewhat ironically given why they were developed originally) that a lot of the "serious" microcar collectors are willing to pay what seem frankly ludicrous prices for things less rare and *far* less usable in the real world than Model 70s.  Peel P50 anyone?

My gut feeling is still that £1-2K is reasonable money for a complete car that needs recommissioning.  £3-5K for a really tidy example that's running, in regular use and has been properly registered etc.  I'm not an expert though, nor do I play one on TV (or even YouTube), that's just my thoughts based on what I'm aware of having seen sell.  LBF has probably been actively following the market closer than I have, so can probably make a more educated guess.

They *definitely* are on the up though, awareness both of their existence and that it's possible to actually drive them legally spreading more widely is seeing to that.  Plus they're a very approachable thing to have in the garage to work on as a leisure project for quiet Sunday afternoons.

you pretty much hit the nail on the head there in all aspects! could not have said it better myself  

as you say prices are all over the place as they transition from "niche vehicle shunned even by microcar people" to "thing microcar people and "general people" now want"

and I suspect it will be a case, like Ford Escorts and VW Type 2's etc where what they are "worth" vs what they go for will end up being 2 very different numbers!

 

but its not a subject I really want to discuss at length much, as Im very much not in this for the moneys! and I dont like how many invacars have been bought and sold for profit

especially by people who acquired their Model 70's etc by the good will and work of others only to just turn around and sell it after saying "Oh id love a Model 70, id never sell it"

[egg]

Don't worry LBF, I made a proper loss on mine, just to keep AS traditions intact ?

[lanciamatt]

I'm looking forward to you getting it sorted lbf . It's same with most cars ,when there common place and over 10 years old you can buy them for price of an evening meal out . Another 10 years when they nearly all gone prices go up . My daily driver is a 1994 lancia thema turbo ds ,which I didn't pay a great deal for ,but to replace now would cost me a lot more . I'm looking forward to seeing your model 70 outside your house .

[MT606]

shame he wouldn't take a 68 beetle project as a swap for one of them that 70's....

[Eyersey1234]

2 hours ago, lanciamatt said:

I'm looking forward to you getting it sorted lbf . It's same with most cars ,when there common place and over 10 years old you can buy them for price of an evening meal out . Another 10 years when they nearly all gone prices go up . My daily driver is a 1994 lancia thema turbo ds ,which I didn't pay a great deal for ,but to replace now would cost me a lot more . I'm looking forward to seeing your model 70 outside your house .

Seconded, though my shed isn't a Lancia.